You know how...

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Postby Zuggy » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:43 pm

... many people say that indigenous tribes and clans of people haven't 'advanced' like us for hundreds/thousands of years because they're isolated?

My question: isolated from what?

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Postby DatDude » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:49 pm

The rest of the human race. No idea sharing, and in isolated enough no gene sharing either .
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Postby Legend of the Past » Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:52 pm

Society. Japan had basically this problem on a smaller scale before WWII and the bomb. Explains why Japanese in the 20th century look exactly like the one from the 14th centuery. But this isn't about Japan.

Basically, saying they're 'not advanced' is a cocky statement. So they don't have toasters. Big deal. They're still humans, but saying they're 'not advanced' you put them on a lower level of sorts. I'm a humanist, and that sickents me, personally.
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:59 pm

You know what really grinds my gears? People in the nineteenth century. Why don't get with the freaking program? It's called an automobile folks, it's much faster than a horse.

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Postby Space Penis » Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:09 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:You know what really grinds my gears? People in the nineteenth century. Why don't get with the freaking program? It's called an automobile folks, it's much faster than a horse.

And you know what else grinds my gears? When I can't find the Droids I'm looking for.
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Postby Hexon.Arq » Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:52 pm

Zugzwang wrote:... many people say that indigenous tribes and clans of people haven't 'advanced' like us for hundreds/thousands of years because they're isolated?

My question: isolated from what?


They are geographically isolated from the Worldwide Money Tribe. Advancement is the ability to trade numbers for bread or kill thousands with minimal effort.

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Postby Eternal Yamcha » Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:55 am

"Advanced" in that sense... Is that they don't use the same technology as the first world nations. It is a cocky term, but since they don't utilize technology and technology, for whatever reason, seems to measure how advanced a society is... They're "unadvanced."

Isolation has already been answered, isolated from the rest of humanity. My favorite example was about a village in far east Russia/Siberia that didn't know that WWII happened, now THAT'S isolated.

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Postby Faußtin » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:05 am

Legend of the Past wrote:Basically, saying they're 'not advanced' is a cocky statement. So they don't have toasters. Big deal. They're still humans, but saying they're 'not advanced' you put them on a lower level of sorts. I'm a humanist, and that sickents me, personally.

Agreed. Me too.

Hexon.Arq wrote:They are geographically isolated from the Worldwide Money Tribe. Advancement is the ability to trade numbers for bread or kill thousands with minimal effort.

Sadly, it is true. So fucking true...

I say "other humans" too. If Europe would have sat on it's rotting ass, then beautiful places like Japan, China, North-/South-America wouldn't have been infested by their blasted Christianity and lust for blood and carnage. Yuck! Europe sucks. Look at South America! It was a good place - until those ignorant conqiustadors appeared! Millions were killed just because they weren't idiots to worship a poor feller who was nailed to the cross. They didn't want to become sheeps. All they wanted to is to live, love and die - is that SUCH a problem?
Now you know what I mean by "other humans": "europeans" and "infested by europeans".
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Postby Vulkurt » Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:56 am

Legend of the Past wrote:Society. Japan had basically this problem on a smaller scale before WWII and the bomb. Explains why Japanese in the 20th century look exactly like the one from the 14th centuery. But this isn't about Japan.

Basically, saying they're 'not advanced' is a cocky statement. So they don't have toasters. Big deal. They're still humans, but saying they're 'not advanced' you put them on a lower level of sorts. I'm a humanist, and that sickents me, personally.


:shock:

What?

While Japan lead a very isolationist existence up until the mid-1800s, it was the military presence of the United States of America that forced Japan, through the Treaty of Kanagawa, to open its ports to trade with the west. True, the technology demonstrated by the American warships that pulled into Edo was far beyond that of the Japanese of the time (they were unaware of steam power and had not seen guns on the scale the American warships possessed), the Japanese were hardly country bumpkins. They did have some knowledge of firearms, by trading with the Dutch, Spanish, and Portuguese. They had a system of government, infrastructure, and tax system (there are still some societies today that do not possess these aspects). The issue at the time was, with all the subjugation taking place in South America, Africa, and Asia, European nations were gobbling up large portions of the map, and the United States (who was primarily occupied with exploring their own land mass at the time), was behind in the game of global domination. It is important to note that, given the size of Japan as relative to countries like China, India, Brazil, and other colonized nations, Japan was not subjugated. Instead, the United States extended a treaty for a sphere of influence, not a subject of the country (that would only happen, ironically, from 1945 - 1952, during the US occupation of Japan). So, just because they were not as technically sophistocated as some western nations, the Japan of the 1700 and 1800s was not the same as the Japan of the 1400s.

By the way, all this talk about how great technology is does not take into consideration how, since the rise of industrialization and cities from the late 1800s to present times, technology has made this planet practically unlivable, and will eventually lead to the extermination of humans (and any other living thing) on this planet. Yeah, hooray for technology.
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:35 pm

Vulkurt wrote:By the way, all this talk about how great technology is does not take into consideration how, since the rise of industrialization and cities from the late 1800s to present times, technology has made this planet practically unlivable, and will eventually lead to the extermination of humans (and any other living thing) on this planet. Yeah, hooray for technology.

I refuse to believe that the situation is nearly as bleak as some would say. I've read reports that with modern systems of waste management, and replacing livestock with automobiles, we've actually improved the quality of air in our cities over the last 100-200 years. Not to say that there aren't major enviornmental problems to be considered, but I doubt we'll be hitting some traumatic "Day After Tommorow" scenario anytime soon, and if anything, technology will progress and we'll find ways to limit our destructiveness. At least, that's my sincere hope.

I just wish people would leave those tribal people alone and stop strip mining.

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Postby Vulkurt » Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:44 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:I just wish people would leave those tribal people alone and stop strip mining.


You said strip. :lol:
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Postby Ornette » Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:18 pm

Sorta OT, but pertains to the whole techology thing...

Has anyone seen the entire "Connections" series by James Burke, the one from the late 70s (78 or 79 I think)? There was also "Connections II" from the 90s, but that wasn't as good.

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Postby Faußtin » Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:07 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:I just wish people would leave those tribal people alone and stop trip mining.

Same here. But I'm not as sure about things like this as you are. Every day when I look out of my window, I'm convinced that we'll be extinct withing a decade. But when I come up here, I'm conviced that perhaps there will be a brighter future.
Well this is what I call "the effect of the environment". Lets just cross our fingers hoping for the best, okay? :wink:
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Postby sheareraehs » Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:34 am

Geographic isolation is only part of the reason that (until very recently) there were still people living in the Stone Age. In addition to geographic isolation, the lack of domesticated plants and animals and limited population sizes and densities limits the development of a society of people.

At any rate, the original question asked about “tribes and clans” which essentially are the simplest political organization encountered. Indicative of advanced societies are large stratified political institutions which require domesticates and large populations and densities (which also breed diseases to easily eliminate the simpler folk). Simply put, simple bands or tribes of people cannot advance culturally or technologically while they remain organized in simple political units; and that may not even occur if the people lack the environment to grow in. Most of the last remaining simple groups of people all were found in areas lacking in suitable domesticates and in places that are small or very inhospitable.

The book titled “Guns Germs and Steel” by Jared Diamond is an interesting book that discusses how geographic conditions in prehistory explains the outcome of history. It (in a 450-page-nutshel) should satisfy your question. It is a book I’ve nearly completed as part of my summer reading regime, and I find quite interesting.

Or you can glance at the Cliff’s notes here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns_germs_and_steel

That’s my $0.02
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Postby Faußtin » Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:06 pm

Tell me: did scientific and politic "breakthroughs" make life better? As we get advanced, so does the shit. My point is: the shit is still there.
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Postby sheareraehs » Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:59 pm

Earth is not a Utopia, but I'd go out on a limb and say things get better and better for more and more as time passes. Also, I'l like to think that there are more oppertunities to be had now, which makes being alive now more interesting than ever before. I guess I am a the-glass-is-half-full person. Likewise, for better or for worse, I'm all for scientific progress; it's what I do.
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Postby BrikHaus » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:55 pm

Sure, scientific breakthroughs have made life better. I mean, look at all the vaccinations, medications, and surgical procedures now employed by the healthcare system. Sure, it's as expensive as hell, but people are living longer, better lives. And I don't want to get into an argument about living so long you end up on a respirator. What I mean is that nowadays you don't have to worry about contracting smallpox and dying.
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Postby Hexon.Arq » Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:02 pm

BrikHaus81 wrote:Sure, scientific breakthroughs have made life better. I mean, look at all the vaccinations, medications, and surgical procedures now employed by the healthcare system. Sure, it's as expensive as hell, but people are living longer, better lives. And I don't want to get into an argument about living so long you end up on a respirator. What I mean is that nowadays you don't have to worry about contracting smallpox and dying.


No. Instead you worry about getting blown up by a rogue nation, run over by a distracted moron, or shot in the head on the way to the corner store.

Then again, only the tools have changed.

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Postby Timesplitter 01 » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:52 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:
Vulkurt wrote:By the way, all this talk about how great technology is does not take into consideration how, since the rise of industrialization and cities from the late 1800s to present times, technology has made this planet practically unlivable, and will eventually lead to the extermination of humans (and any other living thing) on this planet. Yeah, hooray for technology.

I refuse to believe that the situation is nearly as bleak as some would say. I've read reports that with modern systems of waste management, and replacing livestock with automobiles, we've actually improved the quality of air in our cities over the last 100-200 years. Not to say that there aren't major enviornmental problems to be considered, but I doubt we'll be hitting some traumatic "Day After Tommorow" scenario anytime soon, and if anything, technology will progress and we'll find ways to limit our destructiveness. At least, that's my sincere hope.

I just wish people would leave those tribal people alone and stop strip mining.


Please explain the stuff in bold because that is bullshit in my opinion
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Postby drinian » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:34 pm

Ever heard of the "Killer Fog" or "Great Smog" of London in 1952?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_fog

Things have gotten a lot better just in the last 50 years.

And, yes, waste management and the removal of most animals from cities have in fact made them cleaner over the past 100 years. For most of history, cities, especially European ones, were such deadly places to live that the only way they could keep a steady or increasing population was by constant immigration from the countryside.


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