[News] 2013 News (NO POLITICS)

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Bagheera
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:13 am

View Original PostTribblepoo wrote:Not only is there not enough information given to make that assertion, but it also implies that the skater is at fault for the mother punching him (if he wasn't there, he wouldn't have gotten punched). That is wrong-headed.


No it isn't. I said the initial incident, nothing more. The mother's actions are a separate issue (i.e. not part of the initial incident).

And there is enough information to make that assertion, because he hit a child in plain view in a public park. It's not like the kid leapt out from between parked cars into the skater's path or anything.
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Postby Catamari » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:18 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:And there is enough information to make that assertion, because he hit a child in plain view in a public park. It's not like the kid leapt out from between parked cars into the skater's path or anything.


According to the skater, the child wasn't in plain view, "I did not see him. I was looking down" are the operative words, here. The skater may be careless, but I don't think this was intentional. Blame, almost universally, necessitates intent.

Who know, maybe he wanted to go bowling and made a bet with his friend.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:40 am

View Original PostCatamari wrote:According to the skater, the child wasn't in plain view, "I did not see him. I was looking down" are the operative words, here. The skater may be careless, but I don't think this was intentional. Blame, almost universally, necessitates intent.


"Not paying attention" is not the same as "not in plain view". Also, intent isn't necessary for blame; see negligence. The skater should have seen him, and would have if he was focused on his surroundings instead of his trick. That's why you practice your tricks in skate parks and not in public spaces.
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Postby Catamari » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:01 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:"Not paying attention" is not the same as "not in plain view". Also, intent isn't necessary for blame; see negligence. The skater should seen him, and would have if he was focused on his surroundings instead of his trick. That's why you practice your tricks in skate parks and not in public spaces.


While I will agree that the skater should have seen him, that's irrelevant. "Should" doesn't play into it, at this point. He already hit the kid and was attacked by the mother. The damage is done. He's careless. According to the video, he at least made an attempt to help the child. He realized he fucked up and attempted to right the situation. It could have been avoided, certainly, but it is clear this is an accident.

Regardless, the mother's actions are inextricably linked to this event. Her irrationality was a direct result of the accident. Instead of comforting her child, she beat on the skater. Regardless of the circumstances, she's a shitty parent, and is guilty of a felony (third degree, specifically, at least in Florida). Whether or not charges will be brought is another matter.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:12 am

View Original PostCatamari wrote:While I will agree that the skater should have seen him, that's irrelevant.


Not when determining criminal liability, it isn't.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:55 am

Rewatch the video. The child in question is running directly towards the skateboarder. Even more so, we're forgetting that there's a cameraman visible to the public as well. This little kid was pelting towards a skateboarder and a guy holding a camera. Even more so, the skater cannot be charged with deliberate assault; once again with rewatching the video and slowing it down, his body language in the few moments before the hit show not a willingness to overcome an obstacle and surge forward, but an attempt to twist away from the incoming child.

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:04 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:Rewatch the video. The child in question is running directly towards the skateboarder. Even more so, we're forgetting that there's a cameraman visible to the public as well. This little kid was pelting towards a skateboarder and a guy holding a camera. Even more so, the skater cannot be charged with deliberate assault; once again with rewatching the video and slowing it down, his body language in the few moments before the hit show not a willingness to overcome an obstacle and surge forward, but an attempt to twist away from the incoming child.


That doesn't change the fact that, if he'd been looking around and not focused on his trick, the incident wouldn't have happened. No one's claiming he hit the kid deliberately, but he was negligent. There's just no way around that.

(this is true of accidents in general, btw; the vast majority are preventable.)
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I hate myself. But maybe I can learn to love myself. Maybe it's okay for me to be here! That's right! I'm me, nothing more, nothing less! I'm me. I want to be me! I want to be here! And it's okay for me to be here! -- Shinji Ikari, Neon Genesis Evangelion
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Postby arkiel » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:06 pm

View Original PostCatamari wrote:I'll have to side with Tribble, here. We don't have enough evidence to really lay any sort of claim. The first job of a skeptic is to analyze the claims made and the evidence. I would say that the mother acted irrationally and escalated the situation. Based on the skater's actions, I don't think he's necessarily the aggressor in this situation, perhaps careless, but not malicious.

Had I been in that situation, that woman would have a bloody nose after decking me.


Here's how that would actually look:
----You (skater) were doing something wrong. You physically harmed a child (actus reus - a guilty act) because of your reckless behavior (mens rea - guilty mind. Reckless disregard of your surroundings satisfies this requirement for purposes of assault. State law varies, but this is in the Model Penal Code, which means you can rely on it being the case in the jurisdiction where this took place). You have committed assault, you can be charged with this regardless of what follows. In fact, it is probable that the state will choose to charge you, because you were being a dangerous asshole in a public place, and you harmed a child. You can argue that you crumpled to mitigate harm to the child, but a jury would be skeptical that the length of the assault allowed you any meaningful mitigation, and despite your efforts it certainly looks like actual harm occurred.
The mother could sue you civilly on behalf of the injured child (under a negligence theory; recklessness doesn't support assault or battery torts), or sue you herself for intentional infliction of emotional distress (intentional here is satisfied by recklessness) or negligent infliction of emotional distress, because, you know, you smashed into her child in front of her.

----Mom comes to the rescue of her child. Uh oh. Performance of your hobby has created threat to a tiny, breakable human life, and someone has shown up to punish you. Someone the jury can so-so-easily relate to.

She was not addressed by the skateboarder. There is no "cooling off" period that might mitigate a self-defense claim by her. The interval between attack and retaliation is because it took the mother that amount of time to close the distance. Her intent could be argued as set the moment the attack occurred, and maintained until she took action. This is not escalation. It might actually be a diminished response to hit a full-grown man with your hand after he hits your child with his body and skateboard.

There are a couple of tests for insanity, M'Naughten and police-at-the-elbow test. The actions of a mother protecting her young can be reasonably protected to satisfy either of these tests where the child was actually harmed and the interval or behavior don't indicate a cooling-off period.

There are a couple of other things to consider. Whether this jurisdiction has a duty to retreat is one of them. How many skaters were on the scene. The gender and build of the person holding the camera. The mother's assessment of threat is pretty easy to cast in her favor: a taller male (generally considered more threatening than a female) attacked her child. The male has at least one friend nearby. The mother's immediate support is another female holding her child. There are other children in the background, vulnerable and unable to defend themselves.

---You've punched the mother back, giving her a bloody nose. You've taken a bad situation, initiated by your own stupidity (recklessness being legally sufficient for your behavior to be considered a criminal act) and made it worse. You've assaulted a second person, a woman, protecting her child, effectively outnumbered by you and your cameraman. Good job shitheel. You've made prison more probable. You've demonstrated that you can actually be intentionally dangerous, which would allow the mother to assume that you're a threat to herself and the children around her, and 'escalate' her response in proportion to the enhanced threat that you present. Your own argument for self-defense is much weaker, because you and your cameraman outnumber her, you are male and she is female, your builds may not be comparable.

The state would charge you for two counts of assault. The mother could sue you for assault (since it was intentional) and IIED on behalf of her child (who, lets assume, witnessed his mother being attacked).

Your berserker status galvanizes the local government, allowing them to pass legislation outlawing the use of skateboards in public places as a noxious activity too dangerous to be permitted. Way to go.

Few juries would convict the mother of attacking you. Most juries would convict you for attacking the mother.

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Postby Tribblepoo » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:44 pm

View Original Postarkiel wrote:lots of words

See, your post is why our legal system is fucked up. It turns a victim into a horrible monster that needs to be put to death.

Using common sense, which thankfully prevails in most cases, here's how your argument fails.

The law does not support vigilantism. Assuming the woman has a right to physically assault a non-combative "assailant" simply because her child has been harmed is condoning vigilantism. The law, in this case, would support the mother if she acted as a shield between her child and the skater and it would support her even more if she had immediately ascertained the status of her child.

Instead what she did was act as if she was personally offended by the actions of the skater and immediately went after the skater. At the point the mother comes to the scene, it is clear that the skater is trapped. No matter what he does, even walk away, something bad is about to happen to him.

The facts are simple. The skater was in retreat and non-combative. The skater tried to explain his actions, but the mother had no intention of giving him the chance to do so and actually appeared to be intent on assaulting him. As soon as she threw that punch, she moved from her actions being justified to criminal.

Argue all you want, but the fact is that the mother is just as in the wrong, perhaps more so, than the skater in this case.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:51 pm

View Original PostTribblepoo wrote:The law does not support vigilantism. Assuming the woman has a right to physically assault a non-combative "assailant" simply because her child has been harmed is condoning vigilantism. The law, in this case, would support the mother if she acted as a shield between her child and the skater and it would support her even more if she had immediately ascertained the status of her child.


Actually the law works just as Ark described it (particularly since Florida does not have a duty to retreat). If you think it shouldn't work that way that's fine, but your claims above are inaccurate.

Also note was talking about Cat's scenario of punching the mother back, not the situation depicted in the video.
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Postby Tribblepoo » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:03 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Actually the law works just as Ark described it (particularly since Florida does not have a duty to retreat). If you think it shouldn't work that way that's fine, but your claims above are inaccurate.

Also note was talking about Cat's scenario of punching the mother back, not the situation depicted in the video.

Not having a duty to retreat is a lot different than aggressively pursuing a non-combatant "assailant". The mother had a right to step between the skater and her child, even aggressively so. She did not have a right to assault him. The skater was non-combatant at the time. He did not pose an imminent threat to her or her child's safety. Her child was safe in another person's arms, the skater was backing away from the mother and child and the mother was between the skater and child. In fact, his behavior demonstrates the skater was NOT a threat at the point she confronted him. The skater was attempting to speak, not act. His entire posture was defensive in a non-combative nature.

The video is clear. He was willing to back off and she was not. Assault charges are warranted, even in Florida.
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Postby arkiel » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:08 pm

View Original PostTribblepoo wrote:See, your post is why our legal system is fucked up. It turns a victim into a horrible monster that needs to be put to death.


The only person in this set of facts that is definitely a victim is the child.

Using common sense, which thankfully prevails in most cases, here's how your argument fails.

words


Spoilers: anytime you're advocating for a common-sense approach, the mother of the injured child that punched the person responsible in the heat of the moment is always going to win. Society places more importance on a reasonable response (like temporary insanity) than excusing reckless actions. A claim of self-defense or temporary insanity (which would be the strongest defense, probably) would probably work for the mother. Society as a whole accepts that an assault on a child is an assault on the present parent. I've already detailed how use of force would be justifiable on self-defense grounds (a defense against assault, or vigilantism) in my previous message, which you apparently couldn't be bothered to read.

The skater, contrariwise, has no defense for running over the woman's child.

And he was not in retreat, he stood his ground. The mom did not chase him down to punch him. This is but one example of inaccurate observations you make in your heart-felt defense of a moron that ran down a kid on his skateboard because he wasn't paying attention.

I'm amazed that you think an adult male getting punched in the face is more "wrong" than a child getting run down by an adult. There is none of that "common sense" in your position. The only part of your position that isn't legally and morally untenable is that the mother did, in fact, punch the skater.

But even then, only the state can bring criminal charges and, yeah, if its between the jackass on his skateboard or the mother who is going to have a sympathetic jury, you're going to charge the jackass every time.

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Postby Tribblepoo » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:25 pm

View Original Postarkiel wrote:The only person in this set of facts that is definitely a victim is the child.
...which you apparently couldn't be bothered to read...

...your heart-felt but brain-poor defense...

...There is none of that "common sense" in your position...

...The only part of your position that isn't legally and morally untenable...

Care to respond without being an insulting fuck or is that the only level of discourse you know how to engage in?

God I wish there was an ignore or report button for twits like you.

Anyway, your entire post assumes that there cannot be two people wrong in a given situation. Your entire position makes this erroneous assumption. The skater was in the wrong, yes. So was the mother. And yes, the skater was non-combative. He was not taking physical action against the mother or child. He was attempting to resolve the situation. Yet, the mother comes in and acts just as recklessly as he did by not only committing a felony, but potentially provoking a violent response which would have put her and her child in GREATER danger.

Moreover, her response appeared to be calculated in the moment, meaning she made up her mind that she was going to be physically violent before she even knew what had happened. The skater was clearly in a non-combative state and she clearly saw this on her approach. She had decided what had happened in her own mind, became personally offended, and attacked.

My point is that while the skater can be charged, so can the mother. Both acted in the wrong. In fact, the only person who appeared to be in the right in this whole thing was the woman who came in and immediately saw to the child's welfare.

EDIT- But a point in your favor is that this took place in California...whose courts aren't exactly known for their good sense.
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Postby NemZ » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:55 pm

Actually looking at the oddly placed handrails and pointless raised surfaces all over the place I'm inclined to believe this was in fact at a skatepark.

Assault by negligence it might be (though the kid just running around without proper supervision is negligence as well), but the mother's response is pure aggression, showing no concern for the child and completely ignoring the skater's apologetic tone. There is no continued threat and it was obviously not an intentional act to start with so her assault in response is indefensible.

Were I on such a jury I'd give them both a fine and call it a day. Unless someone was meaningfully injured this is the sort of thing that sensible people used to just write off as 'shit happens' without the impulse to get any sort of legal matters involved.

Also, several people involved in this conversation would be well advised to adjust their tone.
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Postby arkiel » Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:24 pm

View Original PostTribblepoo wrote:Anyway, your entire post assumes that there cannot be two people wrong in a given situation. Your entire position makes this erroneous assumption.


I was really honest and upfront that the mother could be charged with assault. I event stated the defenses her lawyer would likely use. Self-defense and temporary insanity are things you have to plead before the court when you are brought up on criminal charges.

The skater was in the wrong, yes. So was the mother. And yes, the skater was non-combative. He was not taking physical action against the mother or child. He was attempting to resolve the situation. Yet, the mother comes in and acts just as recklessly as he did by not only committing a felony, but potentially provoking a violent response which would have put her and her child in GREATER danger.


The mother did not act recklessly. The mother acted with deliberate intent. You also claimed before that he was retreating. Stating conclusory that the skater was non-combative is a rather granular view considering that seconds before he was running over a child with his skateboard.

There is no "common sense" or policy reason why you would argue child endangerment in this case unless the mother was influenced by something other than maternal concern. If her behavior was not a reasonable response to the situation, but rather prompted by alcohol or drug use, I could see that. But it isn't part of the fact pattern.

Moreover, her response appeared to be calculated in the moment, meaning she made up her mind that she was going to be physically violent before she even knew what had happened. The skater was clearly in a non-combative state and she clearly saw this on her approach. She had decided what had happened in her own mind, became personally offended, and attacked.


Yeah, there isn't actually any evidence of deliberation. She does not pause to reflect. She makes a loud, rhetorical statement. That was not a question stated to gain information, it was a declaration of what had happened. The interval between the skater bowling over the kid and the mother attacking him appears to be a product of distance, rather than deliberation.

The Bleacher Reporter even indicated that: “Walking away was the smart move on Goldberg’s part. Right or wrong, this mother couldn’t be reasoned with at the time, and further conversation likely would’ve only provoked her more,” Dan Carson writes for Bleacher Report.

Not being in control of yourself is insanity.

My point is that while the skater can be charged, so can the mother. Both acted in the wrong. In fact, the only person who appeared to be in the right in this whole thing was the woman who came in and immediately saw to the child's welfare.

EDIT- But a point in your favor is that this took place in California...whose courts aren't exactly known for their good sense.


That actually isn't in my favor. She wouldn't be able to use self-defense well because California's self-defense laws aren't actually that liberal. Temporary insanity is still a thing though.

Were I on such a jury I'd give them both a fine and call it a day. Unless someone was meaningfully injured this is the sort of thing that sensible people used to just write off as 'shit happens' without the impulse to get any sort of legal matters involved.


If it happened in a skate park, sure. If it happened in a skate park, asserting that the skateboarder was being reckless is harder.

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Postby Fireball » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:39 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Actually looking at the oddly placed handrails and pointless raised surfaces all over the place I'm inclined to believe this was in fact at a skatepark.

From what I've figured it's indeed a skatepark at Burbank, CA.

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so yeah, letting your kids play on a highway :coffee:
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Postby arkiel » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:42 pm

Now the case is boring. /yawn

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Postby Bagheera » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:54 pm

Yeah, if it's actually a skate park the mother was just stupid. Skater and his cameraman still should have been watching their surroundings, but it's hard to fault them when they're clearly doing what they're supposed to be doing.
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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:56 pm

The mother was an idiot. You don't let your child run around at a skate park unattended.

EDIT: Ninja'd by bagheera. Note to self: stop doing other things while writing posts.

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Postby Monk Ed » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:02 am

Well, that ended quickly.
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