Who Does NOT Use "Trope Logic" Here?

Yeah. You read right. This is for everything that doesn't have anything to do with Eva.

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Who Does NOT Use "Trope Logic" Here?

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Postby Twin Drive Sigma Aquarion » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:55 pm

I think the title says all, who else besides myself does not look at things from trope stand points and junk words like Deus Ex Machina, Plot Device, Plot Armor, The Plot Calls It, etc. and reads/watches/interacts with things just to, you know, enjoy them. This includes not caring for TVTropes.
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Postby MugwumpHasNoLiver » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:02 pm

Does interacting with TVTropes because you enjoy it count?
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Postby Twin Drive Sigma Aquarion » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:03 pm

Does interacting with TVTropes because you enjoy it count?

Pretty much, yeah.
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Re: Who Does NOT Use "Trope Logic" Here?

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Postby drinian » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:11 pm

View Original PostTwin Drive Sigma Aquarion wrote:and reads/watches/interacts with things just to, you know, enjoy them. This includes not caring for TVTropes.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

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Re: Who Does NOT Use "Trope Logic" Here?

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Postby Merridian » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:22 pm

View Original PostTwin Drive Sigma Aquarion wrote:Deus Ex Machina, Plot Device, Plot Armor, The Plot Calls It, etc. and reads/watches/interacts with things just to, you know, enjoy them. This includes not caring for TVTropes.
Deus Ex Machina and Plot Device aren't things that TV Tropes just randomly invented. They're literary terms that have been around for as long as literary criticism has been around.

That said, I don't follow TV Tropes in the slightest. I just have a marginal background in literature and I'm working on a degree in the field. I still frequently enjoy mindless entertainment, and in general I'm not into overanalyzing mindless entertainment, but sometimes there are works that really get my brain stewing.

The few times I've browsed it, I have found TV Tropes to be less reliable and accurate than wikipedia.

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Postby Twin Drive Sigma Aquarion » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:28 pm

Deus Ex Machina and Plot Device aren't things that TV Tropes just randomly invented. They're literary terms that have been around for as long as literary criticism has been around.

Oh I know. What this topic is for is for those that DON'T care for/never use those terms.
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Re: Who Does NOT Use "Trope Logic" Here?

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Postby The Abhorrent » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:35 pm

View Original PostTwin Drive Sigma Aquarion wrote:I think the title says all, who else besides myself does not look at things from trope stand points and junk words like Deus Ex Machina, Plot Device, Plot Armor, The Plot Calls It, etc. and reads/watches/interacts with things just to, you know, enjoy them. This includes not caring for TVTropes.



Some people (such as myself) find it enjoyable to actually tear apart and/or analyze the motifs, themes, and tools (tropes being an unbrella term for all of those) of a piece of entertainment. TV Tropes (the website) functions as a collection of information about those tools, usually done in an informal fashion (which makes many parts of it outright hilarious to read) and loaded with countless examples. Still, it's probably best to avoid using the terminology all the time. It definitely does get a bit stale and/or annoying after a while.

After expanding your knowledge in the subject area, enjoying things without going to the analytical level typically means that a piece of work is exceptionally well done. Just for example, Steven Spielberg once said that "Raiders of the Lost Ark" (the first Indiana Jones film) is one of the very few films he's worked on but can still sit back and enjoy as a movie (meaning he isn't thinking about how things were done as he's watching it).

However, because you do know how things work, that makes the works which deviate from the norm become even more interesting. Evangelion is easily one of the best known works (not just in anime) for doing that. By itself and without any prior knowledge of tropes, it's a powerful series which could probably only be described as "different". Factoring in tropes, it becomes very clear that it's a "deconstruction" (meaning the series was using "trope logic" the whole time, metaphorically tearing down the established cliches) and an near-limitless supply of subverted tropes.... and it ended up making a few new ones in the process.


Rather unfortunately, that means you'll be rather hard-pressed to avoid trope-logic. It's fun to take things apart and figure out how they work. I will agree that when over-used it's definitely annoying (and being perfectly honest, I'm one of the worst offenders of that).... but in moderation it can make things much more interesting for all.

You just have to remember when to apply the MST3K Mantra (typically more often than you already are):

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Postby drinian » Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:19 am

View Original PostTwin Drive Sigma Aquarion wrote:Oh I know. What this topic is for is for those that DON'T care for/never use those terms.

You're on a discussion board, talking about television shows, in English. You're doing the same thing -- it's just a matter of degree. To me, asking to find people who don't care at all about tropes, they just enjoy shows, is like asking to find people who don't care at all about reading, they just enjoy the shapes they form on the page.

(I, for one, have probably been to TVTropes fewer than a dozen times since its inception. I do think it's probably too reductionist.)

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Postby Azathoth » Sat Nov 13, 2010 1:29 am

View Original Postdrinian wrote:(I, for one, have probably been to TVTropes fewer than a dozen times since its inception. I do think it's probably too reductionist.)


Does "fucking annoying" count as reductionism? Cause if so...yeah. What you said.
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Postby esselfortium » Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:13 am

View Original PostTwin Drive Sigma Aquarion wrote:Oh I know. What this topic is for is for those that DON'T care for/never use those terms.

But they have nothing to do with TV Tropes.

TV Tropes, contrary to the apparently popular belief, did not invent stories.

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Postby Oz » Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:31 am

You know, TDSA, you are actually using the same things to defend your "I WANT MOAR ACTION BITCHES!" line of thinking (at least when it sorta, kinda makes sense) - you just don't use the names of the terms.
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Postby MugwumpHasNoLiver » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:29 am

Let me get this straight. You watch movies to be entertained by them . . . and you're proud of this? Well, I've seen martyrs to lesser causes. Right on, bro.
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Re: Who Does NOT Use "Trope Logic" Here?

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Postby SaltyJoe » Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:24 am

Trope Logic

....... what?

Anyways, what do you exactly mean by that? Using tropes (as defined at TvTropes or in literary analysis) as shorthand descriptions of certain elements within a work of fiction, or the practice of evaluating something based on adherence to tropes and trying to analyize stories by cramming them into the boxes defined by tropes without actually putting effort in the analysis? Cause i'm relatively okay with the former, while the latter makes me foam at the mouth.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:59 am

While it's seeded on a few hoary old terms (e.g. deus ex machina aka the Classical Greeks were even worse at endings than anime ever is), TVTropes is simply an (over-enthusiastic) amateur taxonomy of story-telling clichés.

Is "trope logic" any more than a "spot the cliché" or perhaps a "spot the allusion" exercise? So long as it stay clear of applying a Procrustean treatment to the story under examination in order to force it into a pre-conceived check-list (a sin as much committed by literary critics with a political axe to grind as much as by fans), what's the issue?
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Postby Twin Drive Sigma Aquarion » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:42 am

Anyways, what do you exactly mean by that? Using tropes (as defined at TvTropes or in literary analysis) as shorthand descriptions of certain elements within a work of fiction, or the practice of evaluating something based on adherence to tropes and trying to analyize stories by cramming them into the boxes defined by tropes without actually putting effort in the analysis? Cause i'm relatively okay with the former, while the latter makes me foam at the mouth.

Kind of both actually.
You watch movies to be entertained by them . . . and you're proud of this?

Why would I not?
But they have nothing to do with TV Tropes.

I'm not talking about TV Tropes specifically, but tropes in general, all they do is list them.
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Postby Xard » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:03 am

View Original PostTwin Drive Sigma Aquarion wrote:I'm not talking about TV Tropes specifically, but tropes in general, all they do is list them.


More like make them up. TV Tropes is fun, addictive site with quite often interesting info and valid tidbits (and just as often African-American brother you just went full retard moments and falsitudes) but that's all. They also have habit of making up tropes on the spot.

Anyway, this is pretty silly. Anyone who doesn't watch things with completely unreflective mind is free of certain awareness. Not even you, TDSA. Especially not you as you have so very precise expectations and formulations of what work in genre X should be like (and it doesn't matter if you don't use any "fancy" words)

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Postby Twin Drive Sigma Aquarion » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:26 am

They also have habit of making up tropes on the spot.

Or just screw up in general, like the Aquarion page, so many wrong tropes and incorrect info on that I just want to take my giant chainsaw ax-hammer and
Not even you, TDSA. Especially not you as you have so very precise expectations and formulations of what work in genre X should be like (and it doesn't matter if you don't use any "fancy" words)

I'm not even sure how my formulations work, they just gotta click with me.
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Postby psychosis090 » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:26 am

Yeah, I really effing hate the use of 'Trope-dropping' (that what you call it?) outside of the actual website. Keep that shit where it belongs, please. It's no substitute for real analysis and describing a phenomena in your own words.

What really gets me though, is when people have this insane compulsion to give tropes Proper Noun Status, Like This, every time they cite them. No, that does not make them seem more legitimate or important. I really don't care if that's how they do it on the site. Do it anywhere else and it just looks stupid.

I could rant angrily about TVTropes all night, but I'm tired, so I won't. Maybe tomorrow.

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Postby Oz » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:43 am

Switch tropes to "your own words", huh? It's pretty much impossible to be original these days. You are either consciously, subconsciously or ignorantly imitating what someone else has already done. Besides, the tropes don't form the analysis itself, they are merely practical for argumentation and clarification when it comes to analysis. I don't see what's the problem with using them considerately. Excessive use is naturally ridiculous.

As it was stated earlier already, tropes are not something that were only created on TVTropes. Some of the essential tropes were already used in ancient Greek plays.
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"No you wouldn't. Oz's secret is he goes without food to buy that stuff. He hasn't eaten in years." - Brikhaus

"Often I get the feeling that deep down, your little girl is struggling with your embrace of filmfaggotry and your loldeep fixations, and the conflict that arises from such a contradiction is embodied pretty well in Kureha's character. But obviously it's not any sort of internal conflict that makes the analogy work. It's the pigtails." - Merridian
"Oh, Oz, I fear I'm losing my filmfag to the depths of Japanese pop. If only there were more films with Japanese girls in glow-in-the-dark costumes you'd be the David Bordwell of that genre." - Jimbo
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