People that are gone, maybe they came back

[Trajan]

Why? I don't see any reason to give deliberate cruelty a pass, no matter how much time has passed. If he has a "come to Jesus moment", as Gob put it, that's another matter, but in lieu of that why let it pass? It wasn't an error or a simple outburst; he made it clear that his intent was quite deliberate. And honestly, I don't wanna be around someone who thinks that sort of thing is okay.

Being an asshole is forgivable, since as you say we all have those moments and generally don't intend to be assholes. But when there's genuine malice involved it's a rather different matter IMO.

There's a difference between disapproving of what someone did in the past and holding a grudge. Hal was hardly the only one back then to despise AWL, people used to post all sorts of terrible things about her, some of them borderline defamatory. Hal was just the only one who said them to her directly and I'd personally rather have someone be forthright than talk about me behind my back. He deservedly got punished for his outburst, but he's done his time so to speak. It's been three years people, it's time to move on.

And people can be deliberate assholes and still regret their decision later. Most decisions of that nature are usually of the 'I probably shouldn't do this, but I'll do it anyway' variety. Based on my experience, it's hard to unintentionally be an asshole. This isn't about "giving him a pass" but more along the lines of, "if you behave yourself, we'll let you back on."

[Sorrow]

Hal was hardly the only one back then to despise AWL, people used to post all sorts of terrible things about her, some of them borderline defamatory. Hal was just the only one who said them to her directly and I'd personally rather have someone be forthright than talk about me behind my back.

It was hardly more courageous or admirable of him. It wasn't[s]---[/s]still isn't[s]---[/s]her problem that people despised her for her work. Though, I argue that is "kinder" to keep your hissing and moaning amongst yourself and your community, not this person who was only doing what others saw fit to pay her to do. There will be people who wish bad things upon anyone; it is far more sociable and acceptable to do it behind one's back, as it were. I believe many expressed their dislike of her work, but acknowledged they have nothing against her as a person. Apparently HAL was incapable of this.

If someone wanted you to jump in front of a speeding van, what of it? You don't know, so you couldn't possibly care.
If someone told you they wanted you to jump in front of a speeding van, it becomes your problem and they're just trying to make you feel awful because they have an issue with you - which should be their issue and not yours. Though, you still shouldn't care.

[Trajan]

As someone who's gone through life where there have been occasions where I know that people are talking behind my back, I'd much rather have them say what they're going to say to my face rather than hush up whenever I'm around out of some mock sense of politeness. I tend to be a very forthright person, so that's just how I operate. If someone tells me to jump in front of a van, I'd be relieved because I'm now sure where I stand with that person. I'm being a bit hypocritical here since I also talk about people behind their backs but if someone asks how I feel about them, I'm going to be direct and say I don't care for them if that's the case.

As for bringing up the other posters disparaging AWL, once again, it is not an excuse for Hal's actions, but more along the lines of showing that he was hardly unique for holding that attitude back then.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

It would seem that it was the very fact that he voiced said opinions that was problematic. If I live my life hating black people (read: I don't) but I don't say anything about it, there's no external problem. If I run off at the mouth about how slavery was the best thing ever and how all black people should submit to their betters, it is then that we have an external problem deserving of punishment.

[CJD]

^No, both problems are equally reprehensible and deserving of punishment. The difference is one is a problem no one else knows about and the other is public knowledge. There's nothing innately better about keeping something negative to yourself. If you secretly wish everyone would choke on their own dicks, but smile and talk pleasant in public, that makes you friendly, not a good person. You're still an asshole either way.

He brought some energy to the forums, an area its a bit lacking in in recent history.

*coughcough*

HAL was given a three-year ban(this was during a period when we had decided not to ban anyone permanently) and he should be back in a little under two weeks.

GLORIOUS

I'm also going to take this opportunity to say that some of you just need to get over yourselves: throwing around words like "unforgivable" for something that was at the end of the day, someone flaming someone over the internet, seems excessively harsh. You all act like he sucker punched your mother after spitting in her face.

I can't decide whether the irony here is more compelling than the truth of this statement.

It wasn't[s]---[/s]still isn't[s]---[/s]her problem that people despised her for her work.

No, but it is her problem the quality of her work was so bad as to compel people to despise her.

Though, I argue that is "kinder" to keep your hissing and moaning amongst yourself and your community, not this person who was only doing what others saw fit to pay her to do. There will be people who wish bad things upon anyone; it is far more sociable and acceptable to do it behind one's back, as it were.

Trust me. From personal experience, it's not. Kinder that is. Sociable and acceptable yes, but kinder? No. Inevitably the cat always comes out of the bag and the truth always hurts more when it uncovers deceptive lies.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

The difference is one is a problem no one else knows about and the other is public knowledge. There's nothing innately better about keeping something negative to yourself. If you secretly wish everyone would choke on their own dicks, but smile and talk pleasant in public, that makes you friendly, not a good person. You're still an asshole either way.

Alternatively, it shows that you know the way you feel is inappropriate to express in public, and is a sign of maturity. The maturity of having those thoughts is a separate matter IMO. Also, note that I specifically said an EXTERNAL problem.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

So, Hal might come back soon. Do we really need all this gossip mess lying around here for when he does?

[CJD]

Alternatively, it shows that you know the way you feel is inappropriate to express in public, and is a sign of maturity. The maturity of having those thoughts is a separate matter IMO. Also, note that I specifically said an EXTERNAL problem.

I'd rather know somemone's a racist prick and thus refuse to do business with him than unwittingly fund such a person.

It's not out of any sense of "goodness" or "maturity" that dicks, specifically racists, refuse to make their ideology public. It's pure self interest, because they know if they did they'd do irreparable damage to their lives.

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Sadly, that is not the way the world works. As demonstrated by last year's racism fiasco.

[Trajan]

I can't decide whether the irony here is more compelling than the truth of this statement.

So what exactly is ironic and what is true about it?

[Gob Hobblin]

I'm working around a lot of assumptions here, as I actually have not read the post that Hal sent to AWL (and yes, it's probably best to leave this lying around, FreakyFilmFan4Ever...if he's wise, he'll consider that this indicates it's still a sore subject for some folks), so frankly most of my posts have been incredulous (that he would actually do that) and hypothetical (how I know I would be around someone I knew or witnessed behaving in the manner he did).

I will say this, however.

It's more unnerving to me that there are people who are supportive of Hal and his actions (at least, that's how they read) because they disliked AWL's performance, or can sympathize with why he would do that. Look, I'm not going to defend her performance one way or the other, because that's not the point: the issue here is appropriate criticism. There are plenty of works I've read/seen/witnessed/been-assaulted-with, in which I have had the opportunity to speak with the creator. It is rare that I use my dislike of a work to attack the creator directly, as in, "I judge you as a person based upon this work."

There's something inherently unpleasant and crude about doing that. I can't regulate others behavior, but I do happen to be a proponent of 'Death of the Author' (which is one of the reasons I can enjoy Orson Scott Card's books and dislike his politics). Using your dislike of a person's work as an excuse to cut down that person says a lot more about the 'critic' than it does the creator.

And while it is rarely a good idea to keep your 'pissing and moaning' behind a person's back, there is a time, place, and way to bring certain things to their attention. I'm under the impression that (according to most of the posts and the fact he was banned) that Hal did not have any candor of the sort.

Should he be forgiven for it? Maybe. I don't know, and if he comes back, I'll judge him for myself. Should his action be excused or forgiven, or ignored because AWL somehow deserved it? Hell no. That action has been punished, and that is all the indication of whether it was right or wrong that need be given.

[Giji Shinka]

Where is Hyper Shinchan?

It's been almost 15 months since he was last signed in.

[Trajan]

I'd like to clarify that I am not supporting or condoning Hal's actions. My previous posts were an attempt to put his actions in perspective and bring some context to the situation. I think the punishment has been sufficient enough and that enough time has passed that I'm willing to give him another chance. What he did was wrong, but is wasn't heinous enough that he needs to be treated like some kind of forum boogeyman three years after the fact.

[Gob Hobblin]

Fair enough: I can see, however, why he would probably get that as he chased away a cast member. I have no clue how that cast member's behavior was in the forums, but I can imagine that there would be people who would simply never be able to let that go.

All I can say is, if this cat comes back, it will be interesting.

Where's my 'interesting' smiley...?



Hey, I found it!

[Nuclear Lunchbox]

Where is Hyper Shinchan?

It's been almost 15 months since he was last signed in.

Just passing by to mention that I'll almost certainly stay away for quite some time; lately my balance between hating and loving Evangelion felt apart (again) and unfortunately I just can't stay around here without having some interest whatsoever in the main topic of this board.

Bye.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

Oh, trust me I still find Hal’s past actions horrible. There’s absolutely no reason to get that upset over someone’s work, especially when any grievance you would have over that work would have been absolved if you just listened to the audio tracks that didn't contain any of her influence at all anyway.

But Hal’s actions are in the past. Though I can see the benefit in stating out refusal to excuse any action like Hal’s in this context, I do still believe that if he should return, we don’t try to rub it in his face. EvaGeeks exists to discuss Eva after all, not posters. And I would hate to see Hal’s actions or any similar future actions take the primary focus away from Eva.

[Gob Hobblin]

^

I'll rub you in your face!!



...I'm sorry, I got this pent up aggression, a bad Mel Gibson movie on, and a Red Bull crash creeping up, it just...popped out.

[FreakyFilmFan4ever]

a bad Mel Gibson movie on

His next bad movie will hopefully be Iron Man 4. Robert Downey Jr. says it’ll be “bananas.”

[Gob Hobblin]

That is a good word to use for Mel Gibson. That is an apt word.

[CJD]

So what exactly is ironic and what is true about it?

The statement itself is true, the ironic part is that you're the one saying it.

Where is Hyper Shinchan?

It's been almost 15 months since he was last signed in.

RIPIP my gay friend. I shall forever miss your KawoShin dumps in the pictures thread.