Official Departures Thread

[KnightmareX13]

Really makes you wonder....if the forum really got this HOLYWTFSHITBALLS for 3.0, one can only imagine the bloodbath that 4.0 will provoke.

assuming the traffic won't prevent anyone from logging on when 4.0 comes out

[Reichu]

Not sure if this was understood by even Bagheera, but he was bickering with CJD in one thread, and administering ad hominem rhetoric in a whole other. So that was two strikes against him. And believe me that he hasn't been an angel; he's gotten plenty of warnings in the past for his antagonistic behavior, and until now never seen repercussions for it. (And all he got was a temp-ban from the Rebuild subforum, at that!)

Shutting "Admin Mode" off: I consider Bagheera a friend. We've bickered a lot, but we've had a lot of nice communications, too. It was also a blast to hang out with him IRL this past summer. I hope he eventually returns to us, when things are back to normal.

Also, as dogmatic as users can be around here, I think we absolutely need to hear alternate ideas on a regular basis to keep us on our toes. (I know that, as stubborn as I can be while threads that challenge my deeply ingrained notions are actually happening, reflection usually results in me presenting my ideas much more softly in the future, or even changing them altogether.) I'm sorry that the Discussion area puts folks off so easily. It shouldn't be this way.

[Bagheera]

Not sure if this was understood by even Bagheera, but he was bickering with CJD in one thread, and administering ad hominem rhetoric in a whole other. So that was two strikes against him. And believe me that he hasn't been an angel; he's gotten plenty of warnings in the past for his antagonistic behavior, and until now never seen repercussions for it. (And all he got was a temp-ban from the Rebuild subforum, at that!)

You say that like it's no big deal, but as I noted in my post you're wrong (there are objective reasons for this, but you'd also do well to remember that just because something's not a big deal for you doesn't mean the same holds for everyone else. You might also check your post count during that period and ask yourself how you'd feel if you lost access to the site for the duration when you wanted to participate. Circumstances matter!). And again, the issue isn't that the sanction was handed out so much as the fact that it was uneven, applied without warning, and ill-timed. CJD's no angel either, don't forget, and he was mixing it up in both of those threads every bit as much as I was (though again, I don't think he should have been banned -- I just think recognizing that fact in his case and not in mine shows some impressive doublethink, and that more than anything else is what sent me packing). The fact that it was Rebuild-specific didn't help, as I literally couldn't discuss the relevant material with anyone anywhere else on the site (and frankly the fact that it wasn't a standard ban suggests you knew it was hinky and "softened" it to make it more palatable).

You say I might not understand, but I understand quite well. You say you have data points? I know that too, because I was there for every one of them -- no one is more critical of my behavior than I am, as you well know. And none of it, none of it justifies the way you handled that ban. You should have given some warning before passing out bans, and you definitely should not have played favorites when swinging that hammer. There's just no way that could have passed without incident.

Shutting "Admin Mode" off: I consider Bagheera a friend. We've bickered a lot, but we've had a lot of nice communications, too, and it was a blast to hang out with him IRL this past summer. I hope he eventually returns to us, when things are back to normal.

When you show some inkling of understanding why that ban was a bigger deal than you seem to think it was I'll consider it. Until then there's no point, since the underlying problems that led to my departure in the first place will still be there.

Also, as dogmatic as users can be around here, I think we absolutely need to hear alternate ideas on a regular basis to keep us on our toes. I'm sorry that the Discussion area puts folks off so easily. It shouldn't be this way.

You're right. But until efforts are made to curb that dogmatism there's no way you'll hear those alternate ideas, since people who don't agree with the orthodoxy won't bother to post. There are reasons this shit is happening. Address them! FFS, you have two forums ideally suited to the task, so start some threads already and get on with it.

To everyone else: thank you for the warm responses. I honestly didn't think that many people gave a shit about my posts here, and it was nice to be proven wrong on that point. I'll keep that in mind when visiting the forum in the future.

[TehDonutKing]

I'm with Bagheera on this. I don't think i need to say why.

[Legendary]

As someone who was banned from Rebuild for two years... I'm with Bagheera.

[Reichu]

Bagheera: No need for emotional blackmail ("I'm only coming back if you [such-and-such]!"). Remember what I am; it can take me a bit longer than the norm to get into people's heads.

There are reasons this shit is happening. Address them! FFS, you have two forums ideally suited to the task, so start some threads already and get on with it.

I'm not really sure what you're insinuating here. Start some threads about what?

[TehDonutKing]

Threads like this one.

[Bagheera]

Bagheera: No need for emotional blackmail ("I'm only coming back if you [such-and-such]!"). Remember what I am; it can take me a bit longer than the norm to get into people's heads.

I realize that, but I've explained this a couple of different times now and you still seem particularly resistant to the notion that something might be amiss here. At the very least it should be obvious why having two people who committed exactly the same offense punished in wildly different ways might get people scratching their heads. It should also be obvious that other people see the matter differently than you do, mostly because they've said as much in a number of different threads (e.g. this thread and the mod policy thread that was locked last week).

I'm not really sure what you're insinuating here. Start some threads about what?

I was mainly thinking about getting feedback from the site's users about the difficulty of dealing with orthodoxy. You often call upon new users to update/expand the wiki, but that kind of rings hollow given how tight a hold some of the old guard has on it (As an example I tried to add a note indicating that Asuka's claim that she had completed college was unsubstantiated, and that for all we know it might have been idle boasting, but that notion was shot down in a hurry). When the message comes across as "update the wiki, but only with what we want you to write!" it's no wonder the thing is updated at a glacial pace. A thread identifying topics that might be considered a bit too entrenched might help, too; things like the disposition of Rei's/Lilith's soul seem to be considered settled matters, and they really shouldn't be.

Or something. Up to you to decide whether or not you really want to address it.

[Reichu]

Bagheera: If I'm "resistant", it's probably because my brain is still processing a huge amount of data pertaining to the period of heavy banning plus the subsequent (ongoing) backlash, and attempting to make sense of it all and pave the way for improved future behavior. A lot of stuff doesn't make sense right now, and probably won't for months.

I remember there being a huge public dialogue about the orthodoxy problem some years back, but I'm not sure if it had any long-term effect... I also know that the Wiki and getting people to participate in it is a huge problem, and after recently getting some forum outsider views on the matter I was planning to revisit it at some point in the near future, after my brain settled down a bit. (Way too mentally exhausted for me personally to do anything about it right this moment.)

Hopefully, we can have a productive discussion about all this stuff in a thread dedicated to such matters.

Threads like this one.

Nothing stopping users from creating feedback threads. Would make much more sense for them to create such threads in the first place, as opposed to waiting for staff to do it, since staff typically don't know about the problems, or at least the extent to which they're currently affecting users, until they're told via feedback.

[KnightmareX13]

Am I having double vision here or did reichu just double post?

[Reichu]

Am I having double vision here or did reichu just double post?

Naww, you just imagined it!

[CJD]

CJD's no angel either

Not anymore I'm not! As of this post I'm a Pilot! (Sorry, I saw my post count and couldn't resist the perfect chance.)

Anyway, I'm gonna stay out of this one because I don't know the full circumstance, and I'm kind of relevant as a data point so I don't think I should partake in the discussion, but I did want to comment on one thing.

You should have given some warning before passing out bans, and you definitely should not have played favorites when swinging that hammer.

Whatever the reasons were for you getting banned and not me I don't think it was favoritism. Assuming Reichu was the one who banned you, which is the sense I'm getting, prior to that ban the most I ever talked with Reichu was in that Transhumanism thread, and as I'm sure you remember me and her weren't exactly on the same side of the argument. Now, I try my darndest to live by the rule "What happens in a thread stays in that thread." (even if I fail sometimes, as you're personally aware), and I while I don't know whether others try to do the same, the reality is I can't fathom any reason I'd be treated differently based on any "relationship" I had with a mod, because no relationship exists with any of them. So I just don't think "playing favorites" is accurate.

Anyway, otherwise I just want mommy and daddy to get back together. I do hope you two work this out.

[Ornette]

When it was discussed in the admin forum it made perfect sense to me. One offender had been warned multiple times about it, the other has never been warned. I originally thought that it was a forum-wide ban (which I still think it should have been). The only other alternative is to issue yet another warning about the same behavior, unless there's some subtext that I'm failing to see.

[Bagheera]

Not anymore I'm not! As of this post I'm a Pilot! (Sorry, I saw my post count and couldn't resist the perfect chance.)

Okay, that was pretty epic. Congratulations!

Whatever the reasons were for you getting banned and not me I don't think it was favoritism. Assuming Reichu was the one who banned you, which is the sense I'm getting, prior to that ban the most I ever talked with Reichu was in that Transhumanism thread, and as I'm sure you remember me and her weren't exactly on the same side of the argument. Now, I try my darndest to live by the rule "What happens in a thread stays in that thread." (even if I fail sometimes, as you're personally aware), and I while I don't know whether others try to do the same, the reality is I can't fathom any reason I'd be treated differently based on any "relationship" I had with a mod, because no relationship exists with any of them. So I just don't think "playing favorites" is accurate.

Sorry, that was probably a bad choice of words on my part as I was using the term in a fairly baroque sense. What I meant there was that, because Reichu does consider me a friend, she seems to give my activity extra scrutiny that others wouldn't receive, and she does it precisely to avoid the appearance of favortism -- essentially the inverse of what you describe. I don't know that that's actually the case, but it does fit a lot of the commentary I've gotten from her (which is rarely in admin voice and more often a sort of "will you grow up already? You're better than this!" sort of thing). Mind you, she's often right -- most of the stuff that gets me in hot water is petty, stupid shit that I really should have outgrown a decade or two ago -- but that doesn't excuse uneven treatment even when she's horribly disappointed by current events.

Mind you, that's just speculation on my part. But it's based on the fact that I don't seem to get much mod attention when she's on hiatus for whatever reason, even though my posting habits are the same regardless. Maybe the amount of mod scrutiny backstage is the same either way and I just don't see it as much when she's not drawing my attention to it, I dunno.

When it was discussed in the admin forum it made perfect sense to me. One offender had been warned multiple times about it, the other has never been warned. I originally thought that it was a forum-wide ban (which I still think it should have been). The only other alternative is to issue yet another warning about the same behavior, unless there's some subtext that I'm failing to see.

Actually both CJD and I had been warned about exactly this sort of thing on multiple occasions, as we bicker a lot. Reichu even mentioned this specifically in one of the thread warnings she gave before banning me. Past that, compare this to the dustup in the pictures thread. Things got a lot nastier there, and we got bans of 2-3 days or so for that. Where was the influence of "troubled forum history" then? Why the egalitarian treatment in one case and not the other?

Edit: As for alternatives, have you guys looked into things like topic bans, thread bans, mandatory ignore lists, and the like? These seem to work fairly well in some other forums I visit on occasion, and I've always wondered why we don't see them put to use here.

[Ornette]

Past that, compare this to the dustup in the pictures thread. Things got a lot nastier there, and we got bans of 2-3 days or so for that. Where was the influence of "troubled forum history" then? Why the egalitarian treatment in one case and not the other?

There was no history in the pictures thread. That was a unique situation where a line was crossed and everyone involved was banned. The same thing happens when anyone (or group of ones) crosses a line of acceptable behavior and simply gets a ban outright, most of the time it's short, there is no warning, in some cases it's long (HAL in the AWL thread), but most of the time it's short (most recent memory was arkiel's rant about piracy). In cases where a line of acceptable behavior has been crossed, there's no warning and previous history usually doesn't play any part unless the offender had been banned for crossing the line in the past. We don't exactly have a spreadsheet of all the forum members and what they've been warned for or banned for or whatever, so you're right in that the system isn't perfect. As far as I'm concerned, there's lots of issues brought up in the admin forums about your warnings, and CJD's name has never appeared, so from my perspective it seemed reasonable. I can appreciate how it can seem unfair or unbalanced, and honestly, I don't know what specific warnings were sent your way; maybe there should have been more warnings or at least better dialog considering how much discussion went into it. Who knows. But when the incident in the Rebuild subforum came up in the admin forums, I OKed it because it made sense to me.

Edit: As for alternatives, have you guys looked into things like topic bans, thread bans, mandatory ignore lists, and the like? These seem to work fairly well in some other forums I visit on occasion, and I've always wondered why we don't see them put to use here.

It would be up to me to code these things into the forums. PHPbb (version 2, what we use) is a stupid piece of shit. It is so wrong on so many levels and it pains me to have to look at this code. The subforum banning is a crazy hack that exploits the user-group permissions, which is why it's hard to deploy. It's not a banning mechanism at all, it's user-groups that's bootstrapped into some hacky code to make it happen. I would love to be able to tell people to just click on some stuff and ignore other users (that would solve sooooo many problems), or to ban people from threads. But unfortunately, it's no small task, and because the way PHPbb is written, there's zero chance of a drop in mod. PHPbb isn't modular, when you add a modification, you change the base code (preventing you from upgrading or adding other modifications) permanently. Over the course of the last 6 or 7 years, the forum's code has been modified to such an extent that most mods from places like phpbbhacks simply can't be applied.

Both of these ideas had been talked about in the admin forums, but unless someone else wants to write it, or if for some reason I have a lot of spare time on my hands and I think I'd like to feel more pain than punching myself in the balls repeatedly, it's probably not going to happen. Keep in mind that something benign like displaying someone's age or twitter account or whatever, is trivial, that's adding something to the existing profile page and a few lines into the thread display. But preventing a user from posting to a thread, by a per user basis, and adding all of the necessary UI so that other admins (besides someone who can tickle the database directly) can add and remove users, per thread, from this ban list, that's a lot more work.

[Bagheera]

Ornette: I'm not suggesting you code those things. When I've seen them in use elsewhere the particular type of ban is just noted for the user and if he's seen violating it stricter measures are taken. That's it. That puts the onus for compliance on the user and lets you say "look, we told him to avoid this thread/topic/forum/user and he just won't do it, so we had to move on to stricter tools." You can get creative about it, too. For example:

SPOILER: Show

Bagheera, CJD: You two are done discussing this topic. If you can interact civilly with others in the thread feel free, and you can talk to one another elsewhere if you like, but Shinji's behavior in NME is verboten. Further violations will result in temp-bans.

and up from there ("you two are done talking to one another, period", "hey you, problem child: no more 'topic x' for you", etc). Ultimately all you're stuck with is noting what happened and keeping track of the stuff internally so you can take action when people break the rules (I know the poster child for this sort of thing is RPG.net, and they even have an infraction forum where everything from warnings to permabans are posted every time they come up).

Might be worth talking about in the feedback forum. I know some might feel that this sort of thing would result in overmoderation, but others might prefer it to temp bans (and it'd be a good compromise for the spoiler issue IMO). Can't hurt to get a read on the notion from the community.

[A.T. Fish]

^ Isn't that what they do with the moderator posts already?

[Seele00TextOnly]

Petition that the thread be retitled Official "Departures" (But Not Really) Thread

All I have to say about the rebuild bans is that back when they lasted upwards of a year and were handed out along pretty obviously ideological lines re: the 2.0 debates, that was nuts. Have not been seeing any similar ideological purging or overt discouragement so far, and that alone is a major plus to how the forum administration has grown since then, any possible present imperfections notwithstanding. A year is so substantially different from even an early week that there's basically no comparing the two.

Hope you don't stay gone long Batheera, you're cool to have around overall.

[NemZ]

PHPbb (version 2, what we use) is a stupid piece of shit.

Okay, so why do you use it? Why not switch to v3 (which does support ignore lists) or some other forum software, perhaps even one that allows threaded comments to make ongoing sub-arguments and such less disruptive to the thread as a whole?

Another option is public shaming. Issue behavior warnings that are visible on their posts for a duration, perhaps noted below their avatar. Banned and Temp-ban status could be listed here as well. Perhaps use temporary avatar overrides to make it obviously clear when a user is currently on the shit list and why. For example, replace an avatar with an image that states in boldred "spoiler alert" or "stop being a dick"

When the message comes across as "update the wiki, but only with what we want you to write!" it's no wonder the thing is updated at a glacial pace.

That would be why I gave up on it, yep. In the middle writing a theory & analysis article I took a break to rewatch the series and get it all freshly straightened in my mind. During this hiatus someone took it upon themselves to make significant edits to my in-progress article. let me say that again: It's a theory article, and someone edited my theory such that it was going in a very different direction.

As long as that's how the wiki is run I want no part of it.

banned from Rebuild for two years

Wait, what? When the hell did that happen? WHY?
I seriously had no idea this happened at all.

[Mr. Tines]

Why not switch to v3 (which does support ignore lists) or some other forum software

Database migration, porting over all the anti-spam customizations that we've made over the years, that sort of thing. Those who have been here long enough will remember the 7-8 month outage after an earlier software upgrade.