Sexism in NGE?

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

Moderator: Board Staff

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:00 pm

View Original PostoOoOoOo wrote:The thing with the word "slut" is that it has often been used to shame women who don't obey patriarchal notions of what is appropriate sexual behaviour.
I think most of us around here realize that, but I don't think it's ever going to change simply by forcing people to recognize the double standard. Not that I don't encourage forcing people to recognize the double standard and why it doesn't make any sense, but I simply don't think it's going to change.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

NemZ
Token Misanthrope
Token Misanthrope
User avatar
Posts: 15804
Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Location: St. Louis
Gender: Male

Postby NemZ » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:49 pm

View Original PostoOoOoOo wrote:The thing with the word "slut" is that it has often been used to shame women who don't obey patriarchal notions of what is appropriate sexual behaviour.


I think it's primarily used by women to shame other women who, by 'giving it away cheap' are lowering the (social) market value of marriage. The double standard also makes perfect biological sense because even with the advent of birth control women still take the vast majority of medical, financial and social risks for being promiscuous. No it isn't fair, but it isn't without basis either.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

Kutta
Tunniel
Tunniel
User avatar
Age: 30
Posts: 181
Joined: Jun 24, 2009
Location: Hungary
Gender: Male

Postby Kutta » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:47 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I think it's primarily used by women to shame other women who, by 'giving it away cheap' are lowering the (social) market value of marriage.

Exactly true. The Holy Mary vs. the slut attitude can be viewed as a two-strategy evolutionary stable state, where Marys try to reap profit from men's willingness to parental investment (and probe mens' willingness via costly-to-male courting requirements), while sluts use promiscuity to access a much greater selection of male genes, even though they necessarily relinquish high parental investment (because males are very highly disincentivized to care for children who has even a low chance of being not theirs). I remember reading somewhere though that both women and men have flexibility assuming different strategies depending on local payoffs to parental investment and social environment.

However, men are also incentivized to discourage promiscuity in the case they already have high-investment exclusive partnership (polygamous or monogamous). Hence the sometimes exhibited possessive attitude towards women or even the practice of female circumcision. Well, men have some evolutionary incentive to encourage fidelity and detest infidelity at most times, yet their power to enforce fidelity varies. I think men also often benefit from a hypocritical loathing of sluts; it signals faithfulness to Marys, even when secretly taking advantage of sluts.

The double standard also makes perfect biological sense because even with the advent of birth control women still take the vast majority of medical, financial and social risks for being promiscuous.

It may happen to make sense, but it's important to note that the underlying psychology and biology cannot be influenced in any ways by contraception because of its extreme novelty in evolutionary time.
If I were to ask you on a date, would your answer be the same as your answer to this question?

NemZ
Token Misanthrope
Token Misanthrope
User avatar
Posts: 15804
Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Location: St. Louis
Gender: Male

Postby NemZ » Sun Feb 06, 2011 6:04 am

View Original PostKutta wrote:female circumcision.


:chair:

Geez man, couldn't you have stopped at something a shade less offensive, like a father's incentive to keep his daughter virginal to maintain her value as a bride in societies that consider such things serious business? At least that's just systematically oppressive and culturally backwards rather than needlessly cruel.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

oOoOoOo
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Posts: 1677
Joined: Apr 20, 2009
Location: Canada

Postby oOoOoOo » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:47 am

Apologies for "omnislashing", but there's a lot of people talking.

View Original PostoOoOoOo wrote:In other words, a woman who seeks casual sex for the purpose of pleasure. :p And this behaviour is worthy of derogatory language?
View Original PostAllemann wrote:By standards of common decency, yes.
Most of the people here are from the Western world, where "standards of common decency" have advanced from whatever is practiced in the Balkans. Human beings are now allowed to enjoy sex without having strangers criticize their behaviour. What have these "sluts" done to you to deserve such cruelty? And I do appreciate that you view Kaji and Misato in the same light. I don't think you're speaking with the intention of being sexist, but your approach doesn't always reveal that.

What kind of language I use to describe his deeds doesn't determine their severeness. A slut isn't less of a slut if I tell her instead she's promiscuous.
You seem to be confused about the power of language. Imagine a white man saying, "An uppity nigger isn't less of a uppity nigger if I tell him instead he's a disgruntled African-American." Words have a lot of power, regardless of the speaker's intentions. You are using derogatory language to describe people (real and imaginary) who have done nothing to you. I'd let it pass if your wife cheated on you and you called her "slut" in a moment of passion. But I cringe when I hear "slut" the same as when I hear "dyke" or "fag". It calls to mind occasions of harassment.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:I think it's primarily used by women to shame other women who, by 'giving it away cheap' are lowering the (social) market value of marriage.
In my experience the men say it to my face, the women behind my back. Neither feels good. Language is a powerful way to oppress people. These women are just eating up the crap that the "patriarchy" has been serving up forever. (Note, I do not believe I live in an actual patriarchy.) Nemz, you are right that a woman takes more risk in being promiscuous, but a woman also takes more risks than a man by being monogamous. A woman takes more risks simply by living.

And before anyone jumps in with "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me", let's remember that we're all Evangelion fans. This franchise deals heavily with mental illness, trauma, that sort of thing. Being able to simply brush off this kind of language is a privledge not everyone has.

And on a more Evacentric note...

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:While we're not sure about Kaji (though he is portrayed as a flirt, nothing more), Misato implied once or twice in-series that Kaji is the only one she slept with.
Yup yup! We know this about Misato: 1) she enjoys sex, 2) Kaji might be here only sexual partner and she's conflicted about their relationship. From this, some people assume she's a slut. This is why I bring up the use of "slut" to target women who enjoy sex.
~ O-chan is soooo 2D right now.

Allemann
Pilot Candidate
Pilot Candidate
Age: 32
Posts: 1779
Joined: Jun 26, 2009
Location: Europe

Postby Allemann » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:23 am

View Original PostoOoOoOo wrote:Most of the people here are from the Western world, where "standards of common decency" have advanced from whatever is practiced in the Balkans.


If advancing means being a dumb whore and exalting as a virtue, I'm more than happy to stay in the Balkans.

Human beings are now allowed to enjoy sex without having strangers criticize their behaviour


Unless that behavior is immoral and despicable. Morality is a collective phenomenon, and if you can't stand that there are values systems under which such behaviors is unacceptable, I advise you to go live in a cave far away from human societies.

What have these "sluts" done to you to deserve such cruelty?


They're sluts.

Words have a lot of power, regardless of the speaker's intentions. You are using derogatory language to describe people (real and imaginary) who have done nothing to you.


But they do something to themselves and indirectly something to society.

But I cringe when I hear "slut". It calls to mind occasions of harassment.


Even junkies don't want to be called junkies by others. To be reminded what one is is always painful.

NemZ
Token Misanthrope
Token Misanthrope
User avatar
Posts: 15804
Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Location: St. Louis
Gender: Male

Postby NemZ » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:29 am

View Original PostoOoOoOo wrote:In my experience the men say it to my face, the women behind my back. Neither feels good.


I suspect that if guys had reason to refer to you as such then it was probably for a completely different reason... religion-based moral intolerance, jealousy, defensiveness over being rejected, misunderstood the nature of the relationship, someone you're related to feeling social pressure from others for the above reasons, etc. I don't really understand why a guy would have any particular problem with your behavior without some other issue being the real source of friction.

These women are just eating up the crap that the "patriarchy" has been serving up forever.


I'd say it's more accurate to say they've carved out a stable niche within that system that provides both security and satisfaction, and thus they are threatened that your rejection of the status quo might force them to adapt.

A woman takes more risks simply by living.


That's not a reason to intentionally exacerbate the risks though, is it? Saying you could potentially die in a car wreck at comfortable cruising speeds doesn't mean you might as well floor it.

Allemann wrote:there are values systems under which such behaviors is unacceptable


Your values are neither universal nor objectively true. What privileges you to denounce people who hold different views with such vitriol? More specifically, what makes you think referring to a fellow poster as "a dumb whore" is socially acceptable when judged by the established values of this forum?
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

Allemann
Pilot Candidate
Pilot Candidate
Age: 32
Posts: 1779
Joined: Jun 26, 2009
Location: Europe

Postby Allemann » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:44 am

View Original PostNemZ wrote:Your values are neither universal nor objectively true. What privileges you to denounce people who hold different views with such vitriol?


Your values are neither universal nor objectively true. What privileges you to denounce people who hold different views with such vitriol?

More specifically, what makes you think referring to a fellow poster as "a dumb whore"?


Knocking down strawmans is never fun. When did I do this?

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 63
Posts: 20683
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

Postby Mr. Tines » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:01 pm

This is all getting perilously close to religion and/or politics, neither of which make for calm discussion.

Stick to the topic, and stop flaming other posters, everyone.
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics|🕊|🐸|MAL
Avatar: Ritsu-nyan

COACH
Tunniel
Tunniel
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 199
Joined: Sep 05, 2010
Location: HEAVEN'S DOOR
Gender: Male

Postby COACH » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:53 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Much of Misato's confessions in Instrumentality give a strong impression to that effect

Misato in episode 25 wrote:YES, you wish to find some simple joy.
You're trying to heal your mind with temporary escapes.
You're using MEN.

That's just a quirk of the translation, really. 男/otoko could be either man OR men. (Japanese plurals are fun that way.) So, it may actually be "You're using a man."

I'd have to see that part in context again, however. The dialogue before that could've implied "men."
「世界の中心でアイを叫んだけもの」
THE BEAST
ABSOLUTE TERROR FIELD

chaosakita
Leliel
Leliel
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 721
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
Gender: Female

Postby chaosakita » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:38 pm

All I have to say about this is that there really isn't any sexist anime at all. If you don't want sexism, you shouldn't be watching anime at all. Find a better medium to watch. I think it's hypocritical to be a fan of something and then complain how sexist it is.
Avatar: Shinji and Kaworu get ice cream

esselfortium
Angel
Angel
Posts: 3392
Joined: Aug 21, 2009

Postby esselfortium » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:48 pm

View Original Postchaosakita wrote:All I have to say about this is that there really isn't any sexist anime at all. If you don't want sexism, you shouldn't be watching anime at all. Find a better medium to watch.

I'm confused; these two statements seem to directly contradict each other.

I think it's hypocritical to be a fan of something and then complain how sexist it is.

How so? Being a fan of something doesn't necessarily entail liking every aspect of it and agreeing with every idea expressed in its subtext.

child of Lilith
Celestial Serendipity
Celestial Serendipity
User avatar
Posts: 11069
Joined: Mar 03, 2008
Location: Egg of Lilith

Postby child of Lilith » Sun Feb 06, 2011 5:39 pm

I don't think eva is sexist. Although I do believe there is guite a bit of sexism in the fandom.
"Let the right one in. Let the old dreams die. Let the wrong ones go. They cannot do, what you want them to do."- Morrissey, Let the Right One Slip In

"Happy people can be so cruel"- Claudia, Silent Hill 3

"everlasting, true love, I am yours"- Rule of Rose

chaosakita
Leliel
Leliel
User avatar
Age: 26
Posts: 721
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
Gender: Female

Postby chaosakita » Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:57 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:I'm confused; these two statements seem to directly contradict each other.


I meant "non-sexist anime." Whoops.

How so? Being a fan of something doesn't necessarily entail liking every aspect of it and agreeing with every idea expressed in its subtext.


If sexism or whatever doesn't really matter to you, then it's fine. I guess you don't really care. I never intended to say that Eva wasn't sexist at all anyways. But I wouldn't watch something that went against my core principles.

But at the end of the day, complaining against sexism in NGE won't do anything to fix sexism in Japan or anywhere else. If it bothers someone that much, they should just stop.
Avatar: Shinji and Kaworu get ice cream

esselfortium
Angel
Angel
Posts: 3392
Joined: Aug 21, 2009

Postby esselfortium » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:05 am

View Original Postchaosakita wrote:But at the end of the day, complaining against sexism in NGE won't do anything to fix sexism in Japan or anywhere else. If it bothers someone that much, they should just stop.

If we wanted to make a change in the world, we wouldn't be posting here ;)

oOoOoOo
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Posts: 1677
Joined: Apr 20, 2009
Location: Canada

Postby oOoOoOo » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:52 am

I think it'd be more accurate to say "sexually harassing" than just "flaming". But I get fighty all the time so it's probably karma. Apologies for leading things into dangerous waters. ^^; Addressing issues within fandom can get fighty, yeah. But hopefully we've all learned something.

But really, sexism is deeply connected to politics and religion and morality and ethnics and whatnot. Probably best to just axe this thread if we're going to skirt (ha ha) around the issue. ^^;
~ O-chan is soooo 2D right now.

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:38 pm

In a semi-defense of Allemann (whom I completely disagree with, but that's beside the point), I don't think he was intentionally calling Miss O. a "dumb whore" since he wasn't addressing her behavior, specifically, but just the morality of "sluts" in general.

View Original PostAllemann wrote:Your values are neither universal nor objectively true. What privileges you to denounce people who hold different views with such vitriol?

...Knocking down strawmans is never fun. When did I do this?
Then allow me to knock down your strawman; I don't see where NemZ said his values are universal or objectively true, nor do I see where he denounced any other different views with any vitriol. What I have seen him doing is discussing the biological and social logical reasons behind why the term is in usage and what is meant by it. Your answering a question with the same question is just a lame attempt to avoid his accusation by a Tu Quoque that isn't even applicable.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

Xard
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 14236
Joined: Jan 03, 2008

Postby Xard » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:44 pm

View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote: Then allow me to knock down your strawman; I don't see where NemZ said his values are universal or objectively true, nor do I see where he denounced any other different views with any vitriol. What I have seen him doing is discussing the biological and social logical reasons behind why the term is in usage and what is meant by it. Your answering a question with the same question is just a lame attempt to avoid his accusation by a Tu Quoque that isn't even applicable.


Values can only be held by conscious individuals - "society", "tribe" or any other such thing is just abstract conception that doesn't really have its own morals or rules. Ethics of society are only as real as ethics held by its people. It all boils down to individuals in the end.

I don't see a meaningful distinction here. Besides, NemZ and Allemann come from different cultures anyway so the distinction still would be pretty meaningless even if above wasn't true (and it is).

Judging people's morality makes only sense and is justifiable from objective pov. Otherwise it's all "well, it's only your opinion man" in global scale. As such Allemann did nothing wrong (as he believes he has grasp of obj. morality as revealed in Christian dogma). If somebody was being incredibly silly it was NemZ who by his own admission doesn't believe in ethics

in any case none of this is on topic, is it?

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:05 pm

View Original PostXard wrote:in any case none of this is on topic, is it?
Nor does it have anything to do with what I said. ;) Let's just all agree to drop this, unless the mods want to brave another OT morality thread. But what Allemann did WAS wrong and is going to get him banned from this abstract conception of a society if he doesn't stop it.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

Xard
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 14236
Joined: Jan 03, 2008

Postby Xard » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:11 pm

View Original PostEva Yojimbo wrote:Nor does it have anything to do with what I said. ;) Let's just all agree to drop this, unless the mods want to brave another OT morality thread. But what Allemann did WAS wrong and is going to get him banned from this abstract conception of a society if he doesn't stop it.


as far as I can tell he never called O-chan "dumb whore"

but whatever, I'm outsider to this debate anyway :lol:


Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests