Evangelion 2.0 Complete Records Collection

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Postby Xard » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:01 pm

So design for third angel goes back to 2006 already? Cool, so apparently Anno HAS thought out some things in advance :lol:

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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:24 pm

I didn't expect you to do the notes on the drawings, too! I should have sent you the rest of the Tunniel pages. :lol: Anyway, thank you. Looking forward to whatever you tackle next.

(I noticed the "S2 Engine" comment when I was perusing the drawings. Thought that was interesting... We haven't heard about them in NME so far, but, since the concept apparently wasn't laid to rest at the project's outset, this means that they may turn up yet.)
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Postby 1731298478 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:47 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:I didn't expect you to do the notes on the drawings, too! I should have sent you the rest of the Tunniel pages. :lol:

Feel free to, if you have them lying around!

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Postby Azathoth » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:16 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:(I noticed the "S2 Engine" comment when I was perusing the drawings. Thought that was interesting... We haven't heard about them in NME so far, but, since the concept apparently wasn't laid to rest at the project's outset, this means that they may turn up yet.)


Wouldn't be too surprised if Anno simply doesn't intend to use the name. His goal with the second half of NGE's plot was of course to bombard the audience with such an amount of technical info on everything that it's all incoherent. If that turns out not to be true for Rebuild then he may just continue referring to it as Fruit of Life. However I suppose this means that the Fruit of Life is still a physical object and not the energy condenser/halo.

Actually, the fact that Anno himself came up with the idea for the Angel's design suggests to me that Tunnel is more important than it appeared at first and that we haven't heard the last of it.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:21 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:not the energy condenser/halo.

Eva-01 is the energy condenser. The halo is probably the "swell" (since it 'ripples' out like waves).
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Postby Azathoth » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:50 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:Eva-01 is the energy condenser. The halo is probably the "swell" (since it 'ripples' out like waves).


Ah. That's actually more consistent with the notion of FoL-as-physical-object than my previous idea was: the halos are natural symptoms of the energy-condenser/Fruit-of-Life-containing-entity.
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Postby UrsusArctos » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:58 am

First there was Adam, and then there was Lilith...and is this the Serpent? I thought the bible story had it that God cursed the Serpent to forever crawl on his belly for giving Adam the Fruit of Knowledge, or something like that? This Angel would have looked like a snake with legs in its belly if it had any flesh remaining. Won't be surprised if something comes of it in the next movie, not at all.

Also, since that really is an Entry Plug...seriously, what was Nerv thinking? Did they really want to pilot that Angel?
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Postby RyienKu » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:02 am

I want to extend my thanks to 1731298478 for all this cool information he's been translating!

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Postby SaltyJoe » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:30 am

Despite the fact that Anno and crew apparently had no clue about what to do with Mari in the early developmental stages, from where this sketch of Tunniel comes, i'm calling two things

1., The Pseudo Entry Plug was used in an experiment to "Angelize" (angelify?) Mari a bit. Between Asuka getting tainted by Bardiel, Shinji getting all red eyed and pale skinned in Unit-01 and Rei and Kaworu... being Rei and Kaworu, it seems that being an Angelic hybrid is the latest fad.

2., The Key of <that Babilonian king> was somehow derived from Tunniel. I tend to think that this Key is some Impact igniting organ that every Angel has, and Tunniel simply got to do the honors of "donating" his because he got captured.

All in all, i doubt Tunny himself will be mentioned much in the following films, but his legacy will live on p.
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Postby Xard » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:31 am

View Original PostUrsusArctos wrote:First there was Adam, and then there was Lilith...and is this the Serpent? I thought the bible story had it that God cursed the Serpent to forever crawl on his belly for giving Adam the Fruit of Knowledge, or something like that? This Angel would have looked like a snake with legs in its belly if it had any flesh remaining. Won't be surprised if something comes of it in the next movie, not at all.


:scanners_head:

Well damnit, why hadn't I thought about this beforehand... prolly because I thought the angel was pretty much just throwaway made for second film.

that Anno drafted him back in 2006 seems to support the idea he really has some interesting ideas.

Damnit, now I want 3.0 to come out...

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Postby Shogo-Kun » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:02 pm

^Don't we all, Xard? Don't we all...
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Postby Azathoth » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:34 pm

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:1., The Pseudo Entry Plug was used in an experiment to "Angelize" (angelify?) Mari a bit. Between Asuka getting tainted by Bardiel, Shinji getting all red eyed and pale skinned in Unit-01 and Rei and Kaworu... being Rei and Kaworu, it seems that being an Angelic hybrid is the latest fad.


Or a "Lilim+", perhaps?

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:2., The Key of <that> was somehow derived from Tunniel. I tend to think that this Key is some Impact igniting organ that every Angel has, and Tunniel simply got to do the honors of "donating" his because he got captured.


I'm still inclined to think that the Key is a product of Kaworu or Second Impact which they were using in experimentation with Tunnel, rather than something produced by him.
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Postby SaltyJoe » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:33 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:Or a "Lilim+", perhaps?

Rebuild has been more explicit about the "Fruit of Life"/"Fruit of Knowledge" duality and Seele's desire to bring humanity closer to godhood. One way to combine the fruits could be hybridization between Angels and Humans. "Lilim+" and "Angel/Lilim hybrids" could very well be the same thing.

BTW, isn't there a passage in the Old Testament about crossbreeding between humans and angels, essentailly producing the Nephilim, the Hebrew fokllore equivalents of Greek "heros"?
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Postby Azathoth » Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:38 pm

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:Rebuild has been more explicit about the "Fruit of Life"/"Fruit of Knowledge" duality and Seele's desire to bring humanity closer to godhood. One way to combine the fruits could be hybridization between Angels and Humans. "Lilim+" and "Angel/Lilim hybrids" could very well be the same thing.


Yeah, that's what I meant to imply. All the focus of speculation on the 1.11 PV has been on "ADAMS" and yet the (to my mind) far more provocative "LILIM+" hasn't been brought up, even with Shinji demonstrating pretty clearly Angelic characteristics in 2.22...

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:BTW, isn't there a passage in the Old Testament about crossbreeding between humans and angels, essentailly producing the Nephilim, the Hebrew fokllore equivalents of Greek "heros"?


From the sixth chapter of Genesis in the New Century Version of the Bible, appropriately enough:

God kills everyone  SPOILER: Show
The number of people on earth began to grow, and daughters were born to them. When the sons of God saw that these girls were beautiful, they married any of them they chose. The Lord said, "My Spirit will not remain in human beings forever, because they are flesh. They will live only 120 years."

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days and also later. That was when the sons of God had sexual relations with the daughters of human beings. These women gave birth to children, who became famous and were the mighty warriors of long ago.

The Lord saw that the human beings on the earth were very wicked and that everything they thought about was evil. He was sorry he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the Lord said, "I will destroy all human beings that I made on the earth. And I will destroy every animal and everything that crawls on the earth and the birds of the air, because I am sorry I have made them." But Noah pleased the Lord...


The Nephilim are also referred to somewhere else in the Pentateuch although I can't find the passage: the Israelite spies into Canaan compare the Canaanites to the Nephilim in power and size. In fact the Nephilim are conventionally held to be giants, a supernatural race of fallen (heavenly) origin. Perhaps the Evas make more convincing Nephilim than the pilots.
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Postby Seele00TextOnly » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:23 pm

Image

Good gravy, Tunniel information! Love the translations and speculations here, guys! We can only hope that at least a bit more of this creatures very intriguing backstory and circumstances might get the slightest of illumination going forward. Thanks!
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Postby 1731298478 » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:00 am

Here's an attempt at Shigeto Koyama's comments on Clockiel. I marked parts I felt uneasy about, and left out a line I wasn't sure how to translate. Again, this is a rough translation, and I would truly appreciate corrections or suggestions. I found Komatsuda's handwriting quite difficult to read, so I haven't tried to do the notes (at least, not yet) ^^

I'm not sure why the design is described with reference to "Heiwajima." This is also mentioned during the Tsurumaki interview. My guess is that its a reference to a monument in Heiwajima Koen ([url]http://1000enpark.com/park/tokyo/oota/photo_heiwajima/p_main.jpg[/url]). Maybe someone has a better idea of this.

Clockiel

http://img27.imageshack.us/i/clockiel1.jpg/
http://img857.imageshack.us/i/clockiel2.jpg/
http://img607.imageshack.us/i/clockiel3.jpg/

設定のためのラフスケッチ/コヤマシゲト
頭部や胴体部分の構造体を思案したもの。
Rough sketches for settei/Shigeto Koyama
Speculations on the structure of the head, midsection, etc.

3DCGモデルブラッシュアップのための指示書/小松田大全(P147-P148)
Directions for 3D CG model brush-up/Daizen Komatsuda (pp. 147-148)

Commentary from Designers

第7の使徒/コヤマシゲト
Seventh Angel/Shigeto Koyama

小松田(大全)さんの「平和島」のコンセプトで庵野さんのOKが出た後に、僕が呼ばれました。僕は前から使徒のすばらしいデザインが大好きで、「使徒として成立するデザイン条件」をつらつらと考えていたことがあります。それに自分なりの回答を出せたきっかけは、脚本家の榎戸洋司さんのお宅にお邪魔したときにいただいた「ヴィラ星人」のボールペンでした。そこで成田亨さんによる『ウルトラマン』『ウルトラセブン』の怪獣・宇宙人のデザインを研究した結果、僕は「直線的」「幾何学的」な形状が立体としての「面」で構成されている彫刻的デザインと気づきました。
I was called in after (Daizen) Komatsuda-san's "Heiwajima" concept was OKed by Anno-san. Even beforehand, I really loved the magnificent designs of the angels, and had thought at some length about what design elements would be necessary to establish something as an angel. The impetus which enabled my answer was a "Vira Seijin" ballpoint pen I received when I visited the home of scriptwriter Yoji Enokido-san. After studying Toru Narita-san's designs of monsters and space aliens for "Ultraman" and "Ultra Seven," I noticed [he used] a sculptural design: a "linear," "geometical" shape consisting of "surfaces" with depth. [*]

さらに鶴巻さんの監督作『トップをねらえ2!』に参加した際、庵野さんの前作『トップをねらえ!』とのリンクをデザインに入れ込みたいと個人的に思って、「庵野デザイン」「庵野ディティール」を設定や画面のコマ送りで徹底的に勉強した経験から、配置としての三角形・六角形が重要な要素だとつかんでいました。
Moreover, when I worked on director Tsurumaki-san's "Aim for the Top 2!", I personally wanted to make an effort to link the designs [of that work] to those of Anno-san's prior work, "Aim for the Top!", so I thoroughly studied "Anno design" and "Anno detail" by looking at settei and individual frames [from that work]. Because of that experience, I was able to grasp that the disposition of triangles and hexagons was a crucial element [of Anno's design]. [*]

だから使徒には「彫刻的」「三角形・六角形を含む」という2つのデザイン条件があると考え、さらに「人智を超えた行動をとる」という3つ目の条件を含めて提案させていただきました。「浮遊する脚がディバイダーのように空間を切り裂いて軌跡(海面)が凍り、水上を歩いてくるように見える」というアイデアが、3番目の行動的条件です。小松田さんの「平和島」は自分的にも面白かったので、ボディ部分以外でこの3条件が表現できればと思って、脚に何かアイデアが必要だと思った結果でした。
As a result, I considered there to be two design requirements for an angel: the design should be "sculptural" and "contain triangles and hexagons." Furthermore, I suggested a third requirement: "its actions exceed human reason." The idea that its floating feet would seem to "rend" the air like "dividers," [?] leave tracks of ice, and walk upon the surface of the water was [for the sake of] this third, "behavioral" requirement. I found Komatsuda-san's "Heiwajima" concept personally interesting, [...].

さらに庵野さんから大阪万博の東芝IHI館(黒川紀章デザイン)のイメージが出てきましたが、「テトラフレーム=角形だ!つにキター!」と思い、内心うれしくなりました(笑)。そこで「テトラフレームを重ねて六角形という図形が見えるように」としてラフデザインを出すことでOKになりました。
Furthermore, Anno-san brought up the image of the Toshiba IHI pavilion at Osaka Expo '70 (designed by Kisho Kurokawa) [cf. [url]http://www.kisho.co.jp/page.php/211[/url] bottom] - I was thinking, "The tetra-frame is a polygon! At last!" and was privately delighted (laughs). So, I submitted a rough design showing a hexagonal shape comprised of tetra-frames, and [the idea] was OKed.

顔は、あさりよしとおさんの「無機質」「無表情」「無我」が生み出す恐怖感のデザインから大きく離れないラインで様々なパターンを提出しました。というのは、アバンタイトルで仮設5号機と第3使徒という新デザインが先制パンチとして観客を驚かせているので、ここでは「やっぱりエヴァなんだ!」と少し安心してもらえるような使徒デザインであるべきだと思ったからです。色を「黒と白、差し色に赤」と決めていたのも同じ理由です。顔を決める段階でも、庵野さんからは「時計みたいにカクッ、カクッと動く」というアイデアが加わってます。こうして絵として決定したものを3Dモデル化し、モニタ上で調整したものが、最終デザインになりました。
For the face, I submitted various patterns along the lines of a design by Yoshito Asari-san, the "inorganic," "expressionless," "egoless" character of which inspired dread. [*] The new designs of the provisional Unit-05 and the third angel during the pre-title sequence would, as the opening strike, surprise the viewers, so I thought that there should be an angel design which could reassure the viewers a bit, like, "without doubt, this is Eva!" I decided upon the colors - black and white, with red mixed in - using the same rationale. At the stage where the face was decided, an idea of Anno-san's - "it should move like a clock, 'kaku, kaku'" - was incorporated. We converted the confirmed image into a 3D model. What we made adjustments to on the monitor became the final design.
Last edited by 1731298478 on Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Azathoth » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:24 am

I can't say I think too much of Clockiel, which is a pity because I normally like Koyama's work - the Cybodies of Star Driver, for example, contain some of the best mecha design I've seen in years. (I have to wonder if Koyama was going for an Anno-esque style like the one he describes here when he designed the Cybody Samekh, given its remarkable resemblance to Gunbuster).

View Original Post1731298478 wrote:At the stage where the face was decided, an idea of Anno-san's - "it should move like a clock, 'kaku, kaku'" - was incorporated.


This gave me a mental image of Anno using his arms to pretend to be a clock :lol:
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Postby Reichu » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:11 pm

View Original PostSaltyJoe wrote:DThe Pseudo Entry Plug was used in an experiment to "Angelize" (angelify?) Mari a bit.

According to pages I haven't sent Number-kun yet, the full name of the thing is "Third Angel Control Test Mock Entry Plug". Possibly related: Tunniel still has a spinal cord.

BTW, I think you guys are probably interpreting the "LILIN+?" caption totally wrong, but I address that over here.
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Postby 1731298478 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:33 am

Here's an attempt at Yoshito Asari's comments on Zeruel. Everything that applies to the last couple of postings applies to this one, too ^^;; Some sentences are missing, but I'm a bit stuck on this for now. Suggestions and corrections are highly appreciated. The original descriptions might be easier to understand when compared to some of the draft material in the CRC. Thanks very much to Reichu, as usual ^^

Zeruel

http://img860.imageshack.us/i/zeruel.jpg/

最終稿
Final Draft

第10の使徒/あさりよしとう
Tenth Angel/Yoshito Asari

発注時期は早かった。『序』では作品の中心となる第6の使徒戦で大幅な改変があり、『破』ではそれが第10の使徒戦にあたると想定され、最初から大幅に変化するつもりで準備がそこだけ早かったのでは? おそらく新作部分のギミックや殺陣などを作るための叩き台として、とりあえず具体的なものがほしかったのではないかと。結果、『破』では全使徒戦に大幅な改変が加えられたわけだけど。
The design was requested early on. For "Prelude," considerable changes were made to the battle with the sixth angel, which became the core of the work. For "Break," the battle with the tenth angel was supposed to correspond to that [climactic battle with the sixth]. [...] I wonder if [Anno] just wanted something concrete to be used, temporarily, as an impetus for creating the "gimmicks," battles, and so on, for the new parts of the work. As a result, in "Break," major innovations were incorporated into every angel battle.

今まで受けた使徒のデザインは、最初のTV版第3使徒以外、すべて作中のギミックが前提での注文(TV版第4使徒は腕がビーム状の鞭とか、第14使徒は腕がたたまれた反物状のカッターだとか)。スタート時点での新最強使徒の注文は「同じようなやつが出てきて、実は全然違うもの」というだけの漠然としたものと記憶。だから、最初はベルト状の腕を体に巻きつけてTV版第14使徒のシルエットで登場し、それを解くとまったく違ったシルエットに変化するというアイデアを出した。あとは、TV版第14使徒とはまったく違う、何か恐ろし気なシルエット……というのを念頭に置いて描いた。
Up until now, with the exception of the TV series' third angel, the angel design requests that I have recieved have all been explained with reference to a "gimmick" within the work (the fourth angel has beam-like whips for arms, the fourteenth angel has folded fabric-like "cutters" for arms, and so on). As far as the initial request for the new version of the strongest angel, I only remember the vague description: "Something like [the fourteenth angel in the TV series] appears; in reality it is something completely different." To begin with, I submitted an idea where ["Break's" tenth angel] appears looking like the fourteenth angel of the TV series, with [a pair of] "belt-like" arms wrapped around its body. When it unwraps itself, its form completely changes. After that, it is completely different than the TV series' fourteenth angel, with a terrifying shape ... when I drew the angel, that was what I had in mind.

初期稿を渡して、それをすっかり忘れた2007年頭に、突然「まきとりリール式」「キングジョーの上部パーツみたく?」「捕食した部位が、生えてくる」と書かれた監督のラフが送られてきて、まずはそのギミックを組み込んだものを考えた。捕食に関しては「口吻を伸ばして突き刺し、エヴァの中身を吸い出す」というアイデアを出した。
I submitted the first draft, and completely forgot about it until the beginning of 2007, when a rough [sketch?] from the director suddenly arrived, with the following written upon it: "Like something wound upon a reel." "Like the upper parts of King Joe?" "Something consumed by the angel emerges." To begin with, I thought about something that would incorporate that "gimmick." I submitted an idea where, concerning the "consumption," it extends a proboscis, penetrates the Eva, and draws out its insides.

その後もさらに変更しているが、「第3稿」の段階では2007年のバージョンが決定打に欠けていたので、一度監督のラフに近い形にすることで、そこから何か突破口が開けないかと模索していた。「第4稿」になって戦闘のギミックが固まり、ヒラヒラした状態から、それを巻き取って硬いパイプ、もしくは錐状に変化するというアイデアの提示をされた。それに沿ってのデザイン変更。
There were further changes after that [...] In the fourth draft the "gimmick" of the battle soldified, [?] and an idea was presented where the angel transformed from its "fluttering" condition, rolling up into a solid pipe, or else changing into the form of a spear. There was a design change in accordance with that.

体そのものは捕食したEVAが生えるという変更も、演出からの要求。デザイン上で胴体が消失したことに伴い、ヒラヒラを手の平状に変更。捕捉ということと、取り込んだEVAを操り人形のように操作するイメージだったかと。形状というか、全体の質感がガラリと変わるアイデアを具体化というのが、この時点での課題。「ふにゃ~ん」から「しゃきーん」と、監督から口頭で指示。
The change where the absorbed Eva protruded from the [angel's] body itself was also a directoral request. Along with the disappearance of the torso in the design, the "fluttering" was changed to resemble the palm of a hand. [...] it seemed like an image where the absorbed Eva was manipulated like a puppet. [?] At that time the challenge was putting into effect an idea where the form, or, should I say, the texture of the whole, suddenly changes. From "funyaan" to "shakiin" ["limp" to "firm"?]; that was the verbal instruction given by the director.

綾波取り込みについても、監督側からの指示。自分としては、全身が丸ごと生えるのではなく、腕のないトルソー状胴体とか、片足の代わりに腕が生えているみたいな、非対称というか、体のパーツが入れ違った状態で生えてくるようなデザインを考えてみたが、描いてみると意外と面白くなった。
As far as Ayanami's absorption was concerned, the instructions came from the director as well. I myself thought about a design where the entire body didn't emerge, but you would have the torso without the arms, or an asymmetry where an arm emerges in place of a leg, or where the body parts "cross" one another. However, when I tried drawing it it wasn't as good as I expected.

あれこれ描いてみて、最終判断は監督へ。
I tried drawing various things, and left the final decision to the director.

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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:21 am

Yeah, ラフ refers to a rough drawing or sketch in animator jargon.

I'll throw together the pages that accompany the various blurbs I sent you; I guess I wasn't thinking of the importance of context! back then. -o-;
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
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