VALIS and NGE...
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- Unus Mundus
- Embryo
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VALIS and NGE...
Good day everyone. I am new here and this will be my first topic of substance. Nice to meet everyone.
Anyway, I was told by a friend that NGE is heavily based off of a book called VALIS by Phil Dick. I am not sure if anyone here has read any of Dick's work, so I won't spoil anything about the book. However, after reading both VALIS and it's sequel (as well as the 3rd book commonly considered the end of the trilogy, even though Dick died before finishing the intented 3rd book) I am finding very few connections.
I am one of those people that isn't content with watching something, and letting it go. I like to know where it came from. My search started with a game called Xenogears. While trying to find out what led to the game's creation, I read almost everything by Jung and Nietzsche (and being a psychology major, I was already pretty well versed in all things Freud and Jung). I was also told that NGE had a lost to do with Xenogears. That was in the year 2001. Since then I have been obsessed with NGE.
As I noted above, I was told VALIS had some hand in the creation of NGE, so I resolved to read it. And while it was a very good book, I can't for the life of me find any concrete connection to NGE. These are the few links I could find:
-The characters all have some kind of psychological baggage or problem.
-The plot seems to revolve around the idea that we were created by a far more advanced race of beings.
-Most of the characters have some sort of hidden agenda.
-The story is about these random people trying to not only explain the miseries in their lives, but also about them trying to liberate the human race from them.
While these points might seem dead on with NGE's plot, I can only say that if you were to read the book you would also see that these similarities are broad strokes at best. At the moment, for health reasons, I am more or less confined to my home. The purpose of this topic is to be pointed in a direction toward other works that might have (or hopefully, DID have) something to do with the creation of NGE. Also, to those who have read VALIS (possibly going off the same information that I did), I am hoping to gain a little more insight into other people's interpretations of the book and it's connections to NGE.
I know this have been a rather long topic. I hope I have kept it on point enough to be understood. Just so people are familiar with my level of understanding of NGE (which, I hope, should help prevent the need to attempt to dumb things down for me), I have seen the entire anime many times, including the DC version of a few episodes and EoE. I know the anime backwards and forwards, so please be blunt. Thanks in advance.
Anyway, I was told by a friend that NGE is heavily based off of a book called VALIS by Phil Dick. I am not sure if anyone here has read any of Dick's work, so I won't spoil anything about the book. However, after reading both VALIS and it's sequel (as well as the 3rd book commonly considered the end of the trilogy, even though Dick died before finishing the intented 3rd book) I am finding very few connections.
I am one of those people that isn't content with watching something, and letting it go. I like to know where it came from. My search started with a game called Xenogears. While trying to find out what led to the game's creation, I read almost everything by Jung and Nietzsche (and being a psychology major, I was already pretty well versed in all things Freud and Jung). I was also told that NGE had a lost to do with Xenogears. That was in the year 2001. Since then I have been obsessed with NGE.
As I noted above, I was told VALIS had some hand in the creation of NGE, so I resolved to read it. And while it was a very good book, I can't for the life of me find any concrete connection to NGE. These are the few links I could find:
-The characters all have some kind of psychological baggage or problem.
-The plot seems to revolve around the idea that we were created by a far more advanced race of beings.
-Most of the characters have some sort of hidden agenda.
-The story is about these random people trying to not only explain the miseries in their lives, but also about them trying to liberate the human race from them.
While these points might seem dead on with NGE's plot, I can only say that if you were to read the book you would also see that these similarities are broad strokes at best. At the moment, for health reasons, I am more or less confined to my home. The purpose of this topic is to be pointed in a direction toward other works that might have (or hopefully, DID have) something to do with the creation of NGE. Also, to those who have read VALIS (possibly going off the same information that I did), I am hoping to gain a little more insight into other people's interpretations of the book and it's connections to NGE.
I know this have been a rather long topic. I hope I have kept it on point enough to be understood. Just so people are familiar with my level of understanding of NGE (which, I hope, should help prevent the need to attempt to dumb things down for me), I have seen the entire anime many times, including the DC version of a few episodes and EoE. I know the anime backwards and forwards, so please be blunt. Thanks in advance.
- ran1
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-The characters all have some kind of psychological baggage or problem.
-The plot seems to revolve around the idea that we were created by a far more advanced race of beings.
-Most of the characters have some sort of hidden agenda.
-The story is about these random people trying to not only explain the miseries in their lives, but also about them trying to liberate the human race from them.
Have you ever heard of structuralist meta-narratives? These particular plot points share many relations to many works of literature and cinema.
Off the top of my head, there are several anime that also resemble these plot points. Eva took a lot of those from popular anime series of the 80s such as Space Runaway Ideon and Macross. The character desginer, Sadamoto, confirmed this. (Anyone wanna find the exact quote?)
Unless there were published copies of Dicks novels circulating in 1995, which I dunno, there very well might be, I'm not sure how much validity this has.
But if you don't mind providing concrete examples from the text, I might warm up to your propositions.
Punished "Venom" Ran1
Vanity of Vanities
Every post in Evageeks automaticaly becomes masturbatory material. It's nothing new. ~Justcrazyguy
Ran's persistent irony is a coping mechanism he uses to try and create some understanding of his paradoxical attraction to and disgust of the elitist bourgeois slaughterhouse in which he's forever trapped. --Muggy
Vanity of Vanities
Every post in Evageeks automaticaly becomes masturbatory material. It's nothing new. ~Justcrazyguy
Ran's persistent irony is a coping mechanism he uses to try and create some understanding of his paradoxical attraction to and disgust of the elitist bourgeois slaughterhouse in which he's forever trapped. --Muggy
- AuraTwilight
- Angel
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- Unus Mundus
- Embryo
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No no. That was my point entirely. I was told that VALIS had a lot to do with the creation of NGE. However, after reading it twice, the only possible connections I could find would be those very broad plot points I have already mentioned. So, naturally, I thought I was either given bad information (and the book in fact has nothing to do with NGE, it merely happens to have several vague similarities that many other books and movies do as well), or that I might have missed some underlying connection between the two.
The book (being about 300 pages) is too long for me to have committed to memory, and while I do know the plot completely, I cannot recall any direct lines from it (I would have to sift through the book). However, that isn't important, since my goal was to stumble across someone else who has read the book and can supply me with answers. Or at least, might be able to point me in the direction of a book (or movie or TV show) that actually WAS a jumping off point for the creation of NGE.
Looking alone, I am ashamed to say, I am unable to cut through the false information or missinterpretations. I don't want to read another entire book, only to once again find out that this has little to do with NGE other than a few tenuous plot connections. I figured if anyone would know where the creators of this series might have gotten their ideas, it would be on a forum solely designed for the discussion of said series. Having said that, I have heard also that some of the creators and writers are a little "weird" and might have pulled most of the ideas for the series out of thin air. I am just trying to find out if there are any direct sources from which NGE is drawn.
Anyway, if you want some dialogue from VALIS, I am happy to oblige. Just remember that I agree with you that the connections I listed seem vague, and I am hoping to get verification about whether the creators actually said, "VALIS is awesome and helped us with NGE," or "[Blank] was really what inspired this series." [Blank] of course being some different work.
The book (being about 300 pages) is too long for me to have committed to memory, and while I do know the plot completely, I cannot recall any direct lines from it (I would have to sift through the book). However, that isn't important, since my goal was to stumble across someone else who has read the book and can supply me with answers. Or at least, might be able to point me in the direction of a book (or movie or TV show) that actually WAS a jumping off point for the creation of NGE.
Looking alone, I am ashamed to say, I am unable to cut through the false information or missinterpretations. I don't want to read another entire book, only to once again find out that this has little to do with NGE other than a few tenuous plot connections. I figured if anyone would know where the creators of this series might have gotten their ideas, it would be on a forum solely designed for the discussion of said series. Having said that, I have heard also that some of the creators and writers are a little "weird" and might have pulled most of the ideas for the series out of thin air. I am just trying to find out if there are any direct sources from which NGE is drawn.
Anyway, if you want some dialogue from VALIS, I am happy to oblige. Just remember that I agree with you that the connections I listed seem vague, and I am hoping to get verification about whether the creators actually said, "VALIS is awesome and helped us with NGE," or "[Blank] was really what inspired this series." [Blank] of course being some different work.
Take a look at these:
VALIS:
EVANGELION:
EVANGELION 2:
(I believe I read a description of Korawu "floating belly up above the earth", but I can't find that particular image, if there is one.)
Obviously this doesn't make a strong case for NGE making allusions to VALIS. It just shows they both just incorporate western religious symbols.
But another thing they have in common is a religious fanatical group formed around prophecies and predictions. In Evangelion, this is SEELE and the predictions are the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls. I'm not sure what they call themselves in VALIS, but they receive telepathic visions from the VALIS (basically a satellite of some kind) that predict the future and help steer world events.
Another possible similarity is that the VALIS leads it's characters to a chosen child, this this case a small girl. Evangelion also has chosen children; perhaps Rei could fill this role. The VALIS is kind of doing the job of the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls and the Marduke Report.
I would not be surprised if some ideas came from VALIS, but I think it's certain they share some source material or ideas. Or tropes, whatever you want to call them.
EDIT: Oh, and Philip K. Dick is a very influential writer. He dealt with not just Star Trek-like sci-fi, but with religious and psychological themes. His worlds blend the characters' inner worlds with the outer worlds, and beyond. I think it's probably certain that he has some influence on Evangelion, and probably any modern sic-fi, by some degree of separation.
VALIS:
SPOILER: Show
EVANGELION:
SPOILER: Show
EVANGELION 2:
SPOILER: Show
(I believe I read a description of Korawu "floating belly up above the earth", but I can't find that particular image, if there is one.)
Obviously this doesn't make a strong case for NGE making allusions to VALIS. It just shows they both just incorporate western religious symbols.
But another thing they have in common is a religious fanatical group formed around prophecies and predictions. In Evangelion, this is SEELE and the predictions are the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls. I'm not sure what they call themselves in VALIS, but they receive telepathic visions from the VALIS (basically a satellite of some kind) that predict the future and help steer world events.
Another possible similarity is that the VALIS leads it's characters to a chosen child, this this case a small girl. Evangelion also has chosen children; perhaps Rei could fill this role. The VALIS is kind of doing the job of the Secret Dead Sea Scrolls and the Marduke Report.
I would not be surprised if some ideas came from VALIS, but I think it's certain they share some source material or ideas. Or tropes, whatever you want to call them.
EDIT: Oh, and Philip K. Dick is a very influential writer. He dealt with not just Star Trek-like sci-fi, but with religious and psychological themes. His worlds blend the characters' inner worlds with the outer worlds, and beyond. I think it's probably certain that he has some influence on Evangelion, and probably any modern sic-fi, by some degree of separation.
- Shinoyami65
- Seed of Life
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Haven't read VALIS myself yet (I saw it in the bookstore, so maybe one day I'll pick it up). Not much in the PKD novels I have read (Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch, and Ubik) has struck me as extremely Eva-esque, other than a few trippy sequences in TTSPE and Ubik.
E̱͡v͈̙e͔̰̳͙r̞͍y͏̱̲̭͎̪ṱ͙̣̗̱͠h̰̰i͙n̶̮̟̳͍͍̫͓g̩ ̠͈en̶̖̹̪d̸̙̦͙̜͕͍̞s̸̰.̳̙̺̟̻̀
I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you
I always thought I might be bad
Now I know that it's true
Because I think you're so good
And I'm nothing like you
- monitoradiation
- Shamshel
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Has anyone read The Divine Invasion, the sequel to VALIS? I think it has more similarities to NGE, especially in its ending.
The Divine Invasion SPOILER: Show
Basically, after Emmanuel (Yah in human form) and Zina (the Sophia in human form) release Belial from imprisonment, all human beings are presented with a choice between Belial and their personal savior. The latter takes the form of the person each human loves the most...definite parallels to Instrumentality there.
Another early sci-fi "influence" in Eva would be the connected short stories of Cordwainer Smith. They take place in the same future history and are collectively known by the name of humanity and para-humanity's shadow government: "The Instrumentality of Mankind". Not so much a based off of, but 'psychology and style points lifted from'.
- Mr. Tines
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It's one of the VN/games that was released in the wake of the success of the series, containing a lot of info-dumps from Anno (the Classified Information) and many alternate takes on Third Impact and associated events. Plus the notorious Shinji/Fuyutsuki meido end.
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics &c.|MAL|𝕏|🐸|🦣
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- Reichu
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It's not really a visual novel at all. Most of the time, you're in free play mode, walking around in a 3D environment and working on your "relationships" with the other characters or boosting your various skills. Either that, or you're in battle mode. The many available cut scenes are the player's reward for putting up with the mindnumbingly repetitive gameplay.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
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