Seeds. Angels. Evas. Humans. Inconsistencies!

[skikes]

Adam is the first Angel.

Adam is the first human.

Adam is the source of all Angelic life. A Seed.

Lilith is the second Angel.

Lilith is the source of all human life. A Seed.

Evas are clones of Adam.

Evas are human.

Humanity is the 18th Angel.

These are all statements from NGE in more or less words. I'm so confused. What is mainly causing my confusion is the insistence that Eva are giant humans. I don't understand. If Eva are clones of Adam and Adam is an Angel/Seed how are Eva human? I know Adam is referred to as the first human but I'm sure that is just a metaphor. If we go by what the show states then there is no difference between a Seed, Angel or human. Why is Rei human and Kaworu an Angel. I'm kind of lost.

I've been watching and re-watching this show for 7years and it's only recently I'm getting frustrated with its jibba jabba.

[Ornette]

In the NGE world, the word "human" encompasses all of those things. Adam is a human, Evas are made from Adam, Evas are humans. Kaworu is also a human, the show says that. Rei is also an Angel. Angels are also humans. Look at it as if it's a Venn diagram (someone should probably make one of those because this comes up a lot).

[skikes]

In the NGE world, the word "human" encompasses all of those things. Adam is a human, Evas are made from Adam, Evas are humans. Kaworu is also a human, the show says that. Rei is also an Angel. Angels are also humans. Look at it as if it's a Venn diagram (someone should probably make one of those because this comes up a lot).

So if I'm following you correctly, In the world of NGE humans are not strictly just homo sapiens. Humans are... whatever Anno god-damn says they are. So if all animals on earth come from Lilith, they are humans too... and also Angels?

[Reichu]

So if all animals on earth come from Lilith, they are humans too... and also Angels?

More like, of all the life forms arising from LCL, hominids are the only ones that achieved "human" status, via evolutionary predestination or whatever sci-fi gimmick was at work.

You can think of the the FAR as being the first humans. They created the Seeds to preserve humanity and proliferate new races of humanity. All of the humans, save the first (FAR), can be considered "Angels", because they're "messengers", and the message is "humanity".

Exactly what "humanity" is in the NGE universe isn't that concrete. It's reduced to a nearly metaphysical concept. Might take a while to get one's head around.

[skikes]

Hmm I think maybe I'm getting my head around it.

All life on earth comes from Lilith. All other life is there to sustain humanity because humans lack an S2 organ. But Angels differ slightly because they don't require other life forms to sustain themselves because they have an S2 organ and are capable of wielding their AT Field as they please. It's just 2 differing ways of maintaining the FAR legacy. But both are essentially human.

Yes?

[ObsessiveMathsFreak]

One thing that is certain is that NGE's concept of "human" is not in any way restricted to "homo sapien".

[Reichu]

@skikes: Most of that is about right.

However, I'd be wary of just how much to read into NGE's anthropocentric sci-fi background. "All life exists just for Man's benefit" sounds more like something out of a Bible reading than anything actually suggested by any primary or supplemental NGE material.

In fact, this doesn't jibe terribly well with all those eons life spent meandering around exploring evolutionary options, and that life would have only been sustaining us (not to mention giving us diseases, and eating our crops, and shitting on our lawns, and...) for the flicker of geological time in which we've so far existed... The FAR obviously valued humanity a great deal, but this doesn't necessarily mean they don't think other life should exist for its own sake. (Seele, who are content to melt down the biosphere to "evolve" humanity, do not necessarily reflect the philosophies of their very distant ancestors.)

Though sometimes I wonder if the real reason periodic mass extinctions happened was because Lilith didn't like the way things were going. Alternatively, she slept so soundly that she couldn't bother deploying her ATF to block giant impactors. Alternatively alternatively, she just didn't give a shit. It's a good thing she didn't, because then evolutionary predestiny might have turned poor Troodon into Dale Russell's "dinosauroid".

Wait... what were we talking about again?

[NemZ]

I think it's valid to say that mankind was a predictible outcome, but not one necessrilly of design. Perhaps Lilith is just supposed to start evolution and then sit back and see what takes shape?

[Reichu]

I think it's valid to say that mankind was a predictible outcome, but not one necessrilly of design. Perhaps Lilith is just supposed to start evolution and then sit back and see what takes shape?

Here's the only word, that I recall, on the matter:

"Seed X":
You and I were designers to the people whom we had brought with us.
After implanting into a world somewhere, we either bestowed upon them shapes as any form of life, or acted as representatives and chose the forms.

Long before translating this, I'd surmised that some kind of "evolutionary predestiny" (a common sci-fi conceit, if I'm not mistaken) mumbo-jumbo was at work, gradually attempting to shape one of Earth's lineages into a new form of humanity. Granted, I had no real idea how this might have worked. NGE2 seems to be supporting the evolutionary predestiny idea, while placing the responsibility squarely in the Seed's hands.

Now that I think about it, this stance actually relieves NGE of a far more terrible conceit -- the one that humanity, or something so similar to it as to be practically indistinguishable, is the "natural" and "ultimate" outcome of evolution. Instead, what seems to be intimated here is that not only must a superhuman initiate evolution, she must also somehow "direct" it if a form of humanity is to emerge again via the process.

Because, let's face it. Humans are so ridiculous, it's a wonder they ever evolved naturally once (in this galaxy, anyway).

[Legendary]

It's not that we're ridiculous. We actually have huge advantages compared to other species. It's that our particular design is 1 of 1203865320653056302018365081650836503271036509368 possibilities AT LEAST.

Still though, that quotes "or" means that Lilith could have just let things go. Intelligence would evolve sooner or later in a highly competitive biosphere, and then the souls could use their full potential.

[Reichu]

It's not that we're ridiculous. We actually have huge advantages compared to other species.

Time will be the ultimate judge of how real these supposed advantages are. So far, most of them just seem to be short-term advantages giving us the ability to constantly push up the ceiling of our carrying capacity, but certainly not without consequences that, due to our proclivity toward short-term thinking and various cognitive fallacies (much as we pride ourselves upon our saaaaaapience), we seem totally unable to fully appreciate.

For my part, I don't regard human "success" as a great trade-off for the continuing degradation of the biosphere. When it comes down to it, one of the absolutely most disadvantageous things a species can do is destroy its own support system. (You don't need a "tree-hugging hippie" to tell you this. It's common sense at its most basic.) Additionally, the popular conceit that we'll be able to save our collective skin through technological advancements is just a dream, and rather haughty/misplaced one at that.

I think I talked a little more than I'd planned... Whoops. Anyway.

Still though, that quotes "or" means that Lilith could have just let things go.

The "or" is almost certainly referring to the sort of discrepancy exhibited between the Lilith Plan and the Adam Plan. It was kind of hard to translate, but that's what I took from it.

[Legendary]

So far, most of them just seem to be short-term advantages giving us the ability to constantly push up the ceiling of our carrying capacity

Actually I was referring to humanity's two physical advantages over other species, not mental. 1) Dexterity. We can manipulate things like nobody's business. (although it's true most primates rival us here) 2) Endurance. Pick an animal. Any healthy, land-based animal. Pick a human. Any healthy human. Make them run until one dies of a heart attack. Humans win EVERY TIME.

The "or" is almost certainly referring to the sort of discrepancy exhibited between the Lilith Plan and the Adam Plan. It was kind of hard to translate, but that's what I took from it.

I kinda misread it and forgot some details about Angels anyway. Your theory seems sound in the context of Eva2.

[skikes]

In fact, this doesn't jibe terribly well with all those eons life spent meandering around exploring evolutionary options, and that life would have only been sustaining us

Yes, but if Adam is human, in what we perceive to be the human form along with his clones, then it's undeniable that there was no evolutionary options. It was inevitable. The form we have now is the form we were destined to have. So then all other life is to insure a very delicate balance to make the planet hospitable for humanity, to make up for what humanity is lacking, an S2 organ.

[Agent_Koopa]

The way I understood it was that "human" referred to every single life form that the FAR created. That's why Adam is the first human: it's the first artificial life form to touch down on Earth. Under this definition, humanity, Angels, Seeds of Life, what have you, all count as "humans" because they're artificial life forms created by the FAR.

This also happens to include animals and such, though.

Do we even know if the FAR possess concrete souls in the same way as humans and Angels?

[Reichu]

@Koopa: What's given you the impression that ALL life derived from the FAR's efforts falls under the "humanity" banner? I don't recall anything suggesting this, and in fact it would render the "humanity" concept meaningless, since it would be completely indistinct from life in general.

Do we even know if the FAR possess concrete souls in the same way as humans and Angels?

Since the Seeds possess the souls of FAR, and the souls of Angels and Lilin are either FAR reincarnate or FAR-derived -- yes they do. (This is according to our only source of information on the matter, mind.)

Regarding Adam being the "first human", I agree that it is only in the sense that she was the "first to touch down upon Earth". (I disagree with you about what NGE constitutes as "human", obviously.)

@skikes: You are quite possibly correct. I think if nothing else, I just don't want to see a "Earth's biosphere is a resource that exists solely for us to reap!" framework imposed*, since the closest thing NGE has to a philosophy on the matter seems to be a bit gentler and down-to-Earth (no pun intended), painting us as being utterly dependent upon our delicate corner of the universe, instead of almighty landlords. (See: Yui's words to Fuyutsuki at the end of #26'.)

Not sure if I'm making any sense. I ought to shut up.

* This is common in, at least, Western anthropocentrism, so I always find myself anticipating it whether it's on other posters' minds or not.

@Legendary: Sorry if I jumped to conclusions. I've never heard the bit about humans possessing greater potential for endurance running than other animals. I'll have to look at some of the stuff I've just Googled up.

[skikes]

@skikes: You are quite possibly correct. I think if nothing else, I just don't want to see a "Earth's biosphere is a resource that exists solely for us to reap!" framework imposed*, since the closest thing NGE has to a philosophy on the matter seems to be a bit gentler and down-to-Earth (no pun intended), painting us as being utterly dependent upon our delicate corner of the universe, instead of almighty landlords. (See: Yui's words to Fuyutsuki at the end of #26'.)

In real life I don't like the idea either but in an animated universe I'm OK with it. I think maybe your looking at it too negatively. Earth isn't for us too pillage but for us to keep in balance. A cycle with give and take. Obviously in real life there's far too much take and not enough give. But maybe in the NGE universe the FAR envisioned more of a Utopia where it's descendants were capable of keeping a balance. I dunno. Obviously I'm stretching here.

[Agent_Koopa]

@Koopa: What's given you the impression that ALL life derived from the FAR's efforts falls under the "humanity" banner? I don't recall anything suggesting this, and in fact it would render the "humanity" concept meaningless, since it would be completely indistinct from life in general.

This was the only way I could think of to justify calling the Seeds of Life "human". I figured that this definition highlighted the shared ancestry of humans and Angels: they're both human, because they were both created by the FAR. IIRC, we only see this definition of "human" used when we're experiencing a Foreshadowing Moment, so it might be justified as poetic language. Also, under this definition, the FAR themselves would not be considered human.

Since the Seeds possess the souls of FAR, and the souls of Angels and Lilin are either FAR reincarnate or FAR-derived -- yes they do. (This is according to our only source of information on the matter, mind.)

whaaaaaaaaaaaat

I thought we were still having discussions about this... Could you please remind me where this is written?

[Ornette]

2) Endurance. Pick an animal. Any healthy, land-based animal. Pick a human. Any healthy human. Make them run until one dies of a heart attack. Humans win EVERY TIME.

I know dogs that regularly out-run humans who run marathons, albiet, they're following the runners, and not being told to run as fast as they possibly can without abandon.

whaaaaaaaaaaaat

I thought we were still having discussions about this... Could you please remind me where this is written?

Probably from NGE2. There's a thread where there are translations.

[Reichu]

This was the only way I could think of to justify calling the Seeds of Life "human".

Why is justifying their human status difficult? You're okay with the idea that all life can be human, but not the superhuman envoys of an ancient human race specifically?

Also, under this definition, the FAR themselves would not be considered human.

That doesn't seem... at all counterintuitive to you?

Also, I wouldn't confuse foreshadowing with exposition.

I suggested a solution earlier that I find pretty elegant. Have you considered it?

[wonderluster]

So Adam is God?