What You Did NOT Like About Evangelion

This is the place to start: Feel free to introduce yourself, have general conversations and casual discussions about all things Evangelion, including chit-chatty topics like "Sachiel is adorable" or "Which Eva kicks the most ass?"

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:15 pm

OMF wrote:I don't understand all the complaints about Episode #10.


I don't either, but then again I'm of the opinion that all the episodes build upon one another and none are filler and/or pointless. They each have a story to tell whether or not it's in the lighter or darker half of the series.
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Postby Reichu » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:20 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:What are the anime contemporary to Evangelion...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anime_of_1995
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anime_of_1996

From what I can remember of the titles I've seen, NGE's animation is pretty typical of the era. It certainly wouldn't be alone in looking "outdated" due to its mid-90s aesthetic, lackluster budget, and analog production.

Also, with regard to episode 10, people's complaints did not exclusively target its Monster of the Week aspect.
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Postby Joseph the PRPD » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:29 pm

I liked episode 10. Asuka got some character development and fought an angel. It was also a good look at the birth of an angel.
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Postby planet news » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:23 pm

I wonder if 10 would have been better if they actually captured the angel, studied it a little bit to give us something about their origin, and then had it attack and get killed.

I remember feeling disappointed that it had to wake up before it even raised up halfway. Perhaps that's why the whole thing seemed a little pointless.

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Postby Uriel Septim VII » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:00 pm

It certainly wouldn't be alone in looking "outdated" due to its mid-90s aesthetic, lackluster budget, and analog production.


I don't know. Frames per second taken out, EVAs production design seems ahead of its contemporaries, especially looking at anime like Marmalade Boy and Sailor Moon.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:37 am

Uriel Septim VII wrote:Frames per second taken out, EVAs production design...

Are you bringing up "production design" because you think it is implicit in the aforementioned "aesthetic"? (Maybe I used the wrong word?)

especially looking at anime like Marmalade Boy and Sailor Moon.

That's two mid-90s anime out of ... a few to several dozen. Did you pick shoujo examples on purpose?
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Postby Merridian » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:35 am

I don't think NGE's animation was outdated at all, really. Its art design was different from the other mecha-oriented shows of its day (aka Macross 7 vs whichever Gundam was popular vs Tekkaman Blade, for instance). The only qualms I ever had with NGE's animation are the outsourcing issues--Ep. 17's oozy-faces still get under my skin--and that largely comes down to budget concerns.

I guess it seems outdated compared to sleek & shiny new school material, but in its proper context it stacks up fine.

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Postby Allemann » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:14 am

X/1999 and The Vision of Escaflowne definitely had more production value than Eva.

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Postby Taekmkm » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:29 am

X/1999 and The Vision of Escaflowne definitely had more production value than Eva.


Easily.

And Sailor Moon/Marmalade Boy are extremely long compared to the relatively short 26 episodes of EVA.

And in context of that, it's meh to average for that length.
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Postby LiLi » Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:16 am

Mr. Tines wrote:And, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that her upbringing at NERV would have made her very much the stereotypical poor little rich girl, socially isolated from her age group, and used to being treated as some combination of a little princess and a pedigree race horse -- but always the centre of attention.


Indeed - and keeping that attention on herself gives Asuka her raison d'être. Although... it could be that she wasn't completely socially isolated from her peers, if she was, say, attending school.

Do we know if she was living with her Father and Step-Mom? That's the impression I got... I was also under the impression that at one point it was shown how, as a little kid, she resolved she had to be a good girl to impress her step-mom so she wouldn't quit being her Mama too.

@animation: Honestly, I think there's TV anime even older than Eva that looks less "outdated" and more impressive in terms of 'shiny' animation quality. If we were to stick to the originally aired version of Evangelion... there are some seriously odd-looking sequences in there. Some of the more aesthetically pleasant parts were "pasted on" afterwards, as we all know.
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Postby Gamer_2k4 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:26 pm

Reichu wrote:
Gamer_2k4 wrote:Happily, Rebuild seems to have come to solve all the problems.

How can it solve the problems of an older work when it, despite the similarities, is a different and separate* work?

Calling it a separate work doesn't make it a separate work. I know that strictly speaking, the two are "different worlds" or whatever, but when something takes the characters, setting, and plot from another work, they're essentially the same thing, at least for comparison purposes. Obviously the new elements don't replace the original canon, but that's not really an issue here, as this is about what I didn't like in the canon, not ways that it was changed. You could replace "Rebuild" with "manga" and I would feel the same way.

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:I don't understand all the complaints about Episode #10. We're talking about a show where a 200km high naked women swallows the souls of all life on earth and spits them back out again. I for one appreciated the variety of the Angels. How many shows give us something like Ireul in the same category as something like Zeruel? All while keeping a meaty plot moving. Magma Diver is part of what makes Evangelion unique. I'm reminded of that whenever I see another anime simply rearrange the pieces from a previous battle and run the scene again.

Remember, my problem was with all the unnecessary parts, not with the battle itself, and that I actually endorsed the idea of a recoverable embryonic angel.
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Postby Natsuka_Chie » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:01 pm

Although NGE's design may seem a bit outdated, EoE's design, after all these years, is still pretty good.
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:56 am

Taekmkm wrote:
X/1999 and The Vision of Escaflowne definitely had more production value than Eva.


Easily.

And Sailor Moon/Marmalade Boy are extremely long compared to the relatively short 26 episodes of EVA.

And in context of that, it's meh to average for that length.

Well, one needs to remember that almost half of the show's entire budget went to the first two episodes. The other half was spread over the remaining 24 episodes. So, yeah. The budget was stretched pretty thin after all those sharp, fluid battle animations in episodes 1&2.

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Postby Ornette » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:40 am

FreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:Well, one needs to remember that almost half of the show's entire budget went to the first two episodes. The other half was spread over the remaining 24 episodes. So, yeah. The budget was stretched pretty thin after all those sharp, fluid battle animations in episodes 1&2.

Random question: where did you get those figures from?

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:38 pm

Ornette wrote:Random question: where did you get those figures from?

I've never been good at finding fiscal reports of foreign television animation, but I knew some guys who worked as freelance animators that worked on major television commercials back in the mid-late 90s. They explained to be how to break down an animated scene so you can track every item to approximate a rough financial estimate.

I used their freelance pricing as a guild to find a rough estimate of an animated films budget. Albeit, it won't be a very accurate one, as with Japan's different and changing economy and different views on business procedures; and we are discussing studio work, not freelance work. But it's enough to get an approximation.

Production  SPOILER: Show
The general freelance fee for animation back in the mid 90s was $60 dollars per second of screen time. There were live-action elements that were already shot that the animated character had to interact with, so the cost of creating backgrounds was eliminated. There was also only one animated character within the commercial, requiring only one animator. Multiple characters obviously would have required multiple animators.

For fluid, 12 FPS (frames-per-second) animation, that was about $5 a frame. The commercial was 30 seconds long, and the animation took most of the screen time. So the final cost was about $1,800 for 30 seconds worth of animation.

A lots of the animation inside the Neon Genesis Evangelion TV series was limited animation. The FPS was, on average, significantly lower than a higher budget show. Basic "lip-flap" common in Japanese animation normally consists of only three or four frames in somewhat of a loop animation. This helps cut costs across the board, but there's still the extra costs of multiple animators for multiple characters.

Battle scenes don't get the cheap budget luxury of "lip-flap" production values, and in an attempt to wow as many viewers as possible, The battle scenes of episodes 1 & 2 were fully animated, 12 FPS animation drawn on larger cels than most Japanese television animation preceding it, also involving more actual battle choreography than most of it's predecessors, rather than relying on close-ups of shouting pilots.

Then there's the effects artists, which are generally paid differently than character animator. They're the guys who animate water splashes, explosions, and at times tricky items like rope, lights, and cloth not adjacent to the characters. Most of the time this is replaced in smaller budgets by the cheaper "speed-line" animation used in a lot of limited animation. Stuff that DragonBall Z is known for using.

Although for lighting, the computer started to play a more prominent, yet subtle role on NGE. It was mainly used to create that glowing effect of the light shining behind moving objects. Stuff that, prior to that, had to be manipulated frame-by-frame by the effects artists using an air brush technique.

The number of backgrounds also come into play, as each individual background obviously costs money to produce.

All of this is physically layered on the cels and photographed. What little computer assistance that was used in lighting had to be scanned into the computer from the film negative.

While watching the first two episodes, one can see how GAINAX ended up creating the animated footage that would later take up about half of the later episodes. In many an episode do they re-use the NERV techies' lip-flap while sitting in front of the exact same backgrounds painted for episode 1. Other example about in other environments in which there was re0use of already produced backgrounds and animation.

As the show progressed, one can also pin-point there areas where outsourcing occurred. Normally the "in between" cels for the key frames would be outsourced to a Korean company. But, as many have pointed out in the above posts, the designs seem to flex around often in the middle episodes. This indicates that either outsourced the key frames that the in between were often based off of, or that they just laid off their model checker (the guy who cleans up the key frames and make sure that the designs are congruent with the original models drawn by Sadamoto).

The computer lighting assistance is also nowhere to be found in a lot of the middle episodes, indicating that was also cut out of the budget. On top of all that, very few of the Eva battles every really reach the fluid 12 FPS mark. Some of them reach close, (Asuka's first battle, for example) but even then a lot of moments within the battle rely on still frames that only cont the studio about five American dollars, the cels to draw and paint, and the background paintings. Very little of the Eva battle involving Toji even reached the 12 FPS mark. At times even the "speed-line" animation reared it's head to avoid creating the huge backgrounds needed for that amount of movement. At times a lot of animation budget was saved by just using more close-ups of the pilots than earlier budgets allowed by simply being able to afford more animation. Sure, it was used to it's emotional and artistic perfection. It still didn't cost as much.

Even the layering of the re-used effects pieces looked outsourced, or just rushed by the studio itself (which is worse), as there were times that continuity was completely screwed over by accidentally layering explosions over certain elements that it was supposed to be behind, and not being able to afford the costly film needed to re layer and re photograph it. (We'll blame it on the intern.)

And finally, most studios split their budgets in such a way as to give most of it to the first and final episodes. So the final episodes were expected to have a budget and production value equal to the first two episodes. But, even that was budget cut (albeit, it was somewhat unexpected for GAINAX), as most of episodes 25 & 26 only consist of still frames, some air-brushed backgrounds, and even photographs that could have easily have been developed at a drugstore.

It may not me completely accurate to say that half of the budget went to the first two episodes. But seeing as how the last two episodes were supposed to have originally had a budget similar to the first two episodes (just look at the animatic for episode 25), the production's budget certainly felt like an engine without a caboose.

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Postby Ornette » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:34 pm

You also need to keep in mind that they were behind schedule the entire time, one of the reasons why there were so much animation outsourced to other studios because they just couldn't meet their deadlines, a constraint the first 2 episodes weren't under in full force. It's hard to say how much budget or deadlines played in the making of the last 2 episodes. There's practically nothing official about this, likewise with the original budget or the costs of each episode.

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Postby Grimmjow » Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:43 pm

Another thing I dislike about NGE is how after Asuka is introduced in ep 8, she hogs all the screentime and Rei is viciously pushed to the sidelines. They could at least have had Rei live with Asuka and Shinji to give her some time in the lime light.

Nothing against Asuka of course.

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Postby child of Lilith » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:58 pm

I would have like to have seen more of Rei later in the show as well. Though I’m not sure having her live with everyone would have been the best way to do this. I think they could have just had more scenes with her and the other pilots together at school, around town, or just hanging around NEVR HQ.

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Postby planet news » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:15 pm

The more I think about the popularity of Rei, the more I realize that the only reason I enjoyed seeing her so much was because I thought I'd keep getting clues to why she acts the way she does. Plus, maybe an emotional "outburst" (because it would be entertaining contrast). I feel that the series really gave all the clues it could without saying she's sad because she knows she's a clone.

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Postby Sachi » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:48 pm

planet news wrote:I feel that the series really gave all the clues it could without saying she's sad because she knows she's a clone.

She's not sad because she's a clone; she's sad because of her existence, the existence which appears to bear no purpose, yet is significant to all life on Earth.
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