Now for an uncomfortable topic. Double Standard, anyone?

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Now for an uncomfortable topic. Double Standard, anyone?

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Postby CyberXIII » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:18 pm

I've seen this touched on briefly in two other threads, but never really seen this talked about.

This applies to both the series and audience perception.

(Warning, rage-filled rant coming.:soapbox: )

Shinji whines constantly, and is generally seen as an angsty, useless wimp. That is a fact. Now then, just because he seems to be one doesn't mean he is one. In fact, he has the best track record against the Angels, puts up with Asuka, and gets nothing but flak for it. He catches hell constantly, and understandably whines about it. This has resulted in people labeling him an e.m.o teen, some of whom haven't even watched NGE.

Asuka whines just as much as he does (with good reason, but that's not the point), and pretty much acts like a caustic, rancid c*nt. And yet, she gets (I can't stress this enough with text)far, far, far more sympathizers than Shinji does.

WHY?

It can't be her fighting skills. Bardiel floored her so badly Anno couldn't be bothered to show her getting beaten. She only beat Gaghiel with Shinji's help. She's the reason they didn't kill Israfel the first time, Zeruel slaughtered her, and Arael raped her soul.

Is it simply because she's a girl? Are dudes not allowed to feel sadness about their lot in life? If Shinji was a girl, would he be more sympathetic? (Reichu mentioned this other one, so I won't go there. :deadhorse: )

The point I'm trying to make here is this: how badly did the Double Standard affect NGE, and/or your perception of it?
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Postby LeoXiao » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Is it simply because she's a girl?


duh.

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Postby CyberXIII » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:35 pm

LeoXiao wrote:
Is it simply because she's a girl?


duh.


That's my point. Why is this so widely considered to be okay?
"Crapsack worlds and anti heroes have their place. Sometimes, they are very necessary. But an endless diet of dreary cyberpunk and dark fantasy won't do us any more favors than an endless feast of glurge. I'd argue that the cynical nature of these really hurt our ability to hope and work for better. It gets us to accept the hopelessness and jaded outlook of things as 'That's the way it is. I can't change it,' and stops us from fighting when we NEED to fight."

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Postby Sachi » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:41 pm

Image

It's because these two are the archetypes of men and women. If you are not like your respective gender, then you are doing it wrong.
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Postby LeoXiao » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:44 pm

CyberXIII wrote:
That's my point. Why is this so widely considered to be okay?


Because girls are considered to be weaker than men so it's fine for them to get a little annoying, and also, fans (male mostly) get a sexual attraction to her and therefore don't want to criticize her character.

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Postby chee » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:45 pm

CyberXIII wrote:That's my point. Why is this so widely considered to be okay?


Dated, mostly-arbitrary social constructions of gender.

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Postby MatrixRefugee » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:50 pm

Per societal "norms", guys are supposed to be strong stoics who "tough it out", while girls, the "tender sex", are supposed to be crooned over for every little toe-ache they suffer. Nothing galls me more than this double standard towards the sexes: to me, pain is pain, and whining is whining, whether it comes from a girl or a boy. If a male is in pain and needs to be comforted, he should be offered comfort, instead of being expected to "tough it out". Personally, I'm tempted to tell a whiny female co-worker of mine to just "tough it out" because she's just about like a vampire the way she feeds on people's pity.

Let's face it, the kind of crud that Shinji has gone through in his short lifetime would be enough to weaken the spirit of anyone, and the poor kid *NEEDS* someone to just listen to him and offer him some comfort. I'm with you on being sick unto death of hearing people brand the poor kid with a certain three-letter word, when the kind of stuff he's gone through -- seeing his mom die (in a manner of speaking) during a lab experiment, being abandoned by his at best emotionally distant father and being to sent off to live with his teacher, then being called back fourteen years later and being expected to pilot a forty-to-two-hundred-meters-tall cyborg robot and fight a weird-looking monster -- would not make anyone a happy camper. Yes, Asuka has been through just as much hell, and she deserves people's sympathy, but she's gotten plenty of it: it's the brown-haired, blue-eyed kid's turn for a change.
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Postby THE Hal E. Burton 9000 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:56 pm

sure Asuka's annoying at times, but people in Western culture generally have notions about giving women something akin to psychologically-based affirmative action in the name of self-esteem, social order/justice, etc.

why do think some women get away with unspeakable crimes (i.e. Andrea Yates, Debra Lafave, etc.)?
see also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment_in_education#The_gender_double_standard

oh, and especially this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_complex , though IMO the popular notion has misunderstood this
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Postby CyberXIII » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:11 pm

Sachi wrote:Image

It's because these two are the archetypes of men and women. If you are not like your respective gender, then you are doing it wrong.


Oh lord, don't drag THEM into this.
SPOILER: Show
It's bad enough that when Shinji actually acts badass for once, people chewed him out for "ripping off Gurren Lagann". Ugh...


Besides, Asuka acts nothing like Yoko, and she's still more popular than Shinji, if for no other reason than she has breasts.
"Crapsack worlds and anti heroes have their place. Sometimes, they are very necessary. But an endless diet of dreary cyberpunk and dark fantasy won't do us any more favors than an endless feast of glurge. I'd argue that the cynical nature of these really hurt our ability to hope and work for better. It gets us to accept the hopelessness and jaded outlook of things as 'That's the way it is. I can't change it,' and stops us from fighting when we NEED to fight."

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Postby Sachi » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:24 pm

CyberXIII wrote:Besides, Asuka acts nothing like Yoko, ...

ORLY? They both can be hot headed at times. They both can be bitches. They both look down on those weaker than themselves. They're both somewhat tsundere. They both get jealous of the other leading lady of the series. The list goes on. Yes, there are differences, obviously. They can't make them exactly the same, otherwise they'd be the same character.
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Re: Now for an uncomfortable topic. Double Standard, anyone

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Postby Rock-Slash » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:40 am

Its bitchy or whiny you choose, and I can tolerate more the bitchyness.

CyberXIII wrote:If Shinji was a girl, would he be more sympathetic?
No, at least to me because she still would be whiny.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:54 am

The difference is that Shinji is passive (and to ludicrous extremes in EoE), while Asuka is active.
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Postby Synapsid » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:21 am

This sort of has been talked about a bit in a certan thread but It probably doesn't hurt to brush on it again.
As a whole Shinji probably gets it worse since he steps on some aspects of masculinity that viewers would rather leave untouched, there's also more media tolerance nowadays to a girl acting like a boy(especially if she dresses frilly) than a boy acting like a girl.
You are right about Asuka acting rather boyish, especially around Shinji, even her posture has been pointed out as being "masculine"(she holds her self out while Shinji holds himself closely), but the fact that she presents a visually feminine appearance probably does screen her a bit.

CyberXIII wrote:If Shinji was a girl, would he be more sympathetic?

Without a doubt the audience as a whole would see him/her in a more sympathetic light , a good deal of the discomfort around Shinji comes from the fact that the audience is supposed to see eva through him, but rather than getting the pilot/soldier shonen hero that's expected, they end up with a feminine boy who acts unlike what they want(and even looks sort of like a girl, which does bring in an element of uncomfortable attraction in some cases), the result is something that steps on the identity of many mecha viewers...you only need to google Shinji and fag together to see that I'm not exaggerating about all of the pissed shonen viewers.
Had he been a girl I suppose they might have been able to keep some of those issues away from connecting to themselves, and Shinji's girly looks wouldn't have been a source of awkward atraction.

SPOILER: Show
It's bad enough that when Shinji actually acts badass for once, people chewed him out for "ripping off Gurren Lagann". Ugh...
SPOILER: Show
Uhh, not to poke at you, but the most rational explanations I've heard describe Shinji's frenzy as being something akin to a mother rescuing it's child...and he was very maternal around Rei. I don't think it was shonen/gar outside of a superficial similarity...kind of like eva as a whole.
You know if TTGL would have reversed their gender roles I would have found it much more novel.
Besides, Asuka acts nothing like Yoko, and she's still more popular than Shinji, if for no other reason than she has breasts
Unfortunately that might be how some shonen fannboys make their decision.
Rock-Slash wrote:No, at least to me because she still would be whiny.
Isn't there a chance that you might subconsciously see her problems as more of a justification for whining? It does have a subtle effect on many people's perceptions, even if it's not conscious.
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Postby Alaska Slim » Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:28 am

CyberXIII wrote:Asuka whines just as much as he does (with good reason, but that's not the point), and pretty much acts like a caustic, rancid c*nt. And yet, she gets (I can't stress this enough with text)far, far, far more sympathizers than Shinji does.

WHY?

It can't be her fighting skills.

That largely isn't why, but it is a credible in-universe reason,

Bardiel floored her so badly Anno couldn't be bothered to show her getting beaten. She only beat Gaghiel with Shinji's help. She's the reason they didn't kill Israfel the first time, Zeruel slaughtered her, and Arael raped her soul.

You're forgetting Sandalphon which she took on virtually alone, and Matariel, for which she came up with the plan of attack and took up the most dangerous role.

Mr. Tines wrote:The difference is that Shinji is passive (and to ludicrous extremes in EoE), while Asuka is active.

QFT, the moment Asuka arrives she is decisive and open to action, Shinji had to be goaded into action three damn times, and still fell apart at the end, Asuka meanwhile was beaten down by the universe itself, repeatedly, and unlike Shinji, she had a reason to believe people hated her, because her mother told her so.

She tries so damn hard, strives to be what is called of her, all the while having personal demons equal to or greater than what the others were dealing with, and only to have her own sense of meaning stolen by some kid, whose not only weak, but doesn’t even seem to care half the damn time! Then to be rescued by the virtual embodiment of what she fears most… it’s beyond words.

Shinji was an ass who couldn’t be bothered because he was too afraid, Asuka put forth her best and instead got fate’s door slammed in her face. :hmph:
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Postby Xard » Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:39 am

Sachi wrote:Image

It's because these two are the archetypes of men and women. If you are not like your respective gender, then you are doing it wrong.


if REAL Action Girl Doombitch Yoko is archetype of woman... oh boy

Women are then a lot more badass than traditions and tales have them ever allowed to be!
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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:06 am

Shinji and Asuka have the exact same problem. Their differing personalities just cause them to handle it different ways. So it's simply a matter of picking and choosing personalities you like. Gender also plays a role, but I wouldn't think it's the only deciding factor. Toji gets more sympathy from some audiences than Shinji, and they're both male. (Although my younger sister sympathized with Shinji up until she saw EoE.)

I'd venture to say that Shinji has failed in battle as many times as Asuka. He rarely fought his battles alone. If it wasn't a team effort with Rei and/or Asuka, then Yui's spirit/soul/whatever would take over a lot of the time and fight for Shinji. But Shinji himself wouldn't actually fight. The only angel he fought and conquered alone (without the help of Rei, Asuka, or Yui's soul interventions) was Shamshel. Every other time he goes into battle he fails miserably and has to be "rescued" by any of the three females. (Although he got pretty far with Zeruel before running out of power.)

Any time (other than Shamshel) any of the Evas have fought became a team effort, whether that was Nerv's original battle strategy or not. (We could get into Gendo's hidden agendas again, but not for this thread). Asuka became distraction for Arael while Rei skewed it, an ill-fated team effort seemed to be thrown together at the last minute for Armisael. The team-oriented battle strategy against Israfel made up one of the most entertaining and fun episodes, blah, bla-blah, ect.

To sum up, Shinji has failed in single-handed battle situations just as many times as Asuka. The only time they have good winning streaks is in team-oriented battle scenarios, or through from through Yui's soul (a commentary on "The Hedgehog's Dilemma"). It's just that Asuka did not access the help from her mother's soul in Unit 02 for some reason until EoE.

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Postby CyberXIII » Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:49 am

Alaska Slim wrote:That largely isn't why, but it is a credible in-universe reason,

Bardiel floored her so badly Anno couldn't be bothered to show her getting beaten. She only beat Gaghiel with Shinji's help. She's the reason they didn't kill Israfel the first time, Zeruel slaughtered her, and Arael raped her soul.


You're forgetting Sandalphon which she took on virtually alone, and Matariel, for which she came up with the plan of attack and took up the most dangerous role.


She's also the one who Shinji had to jump and rescue after Sandy cut the cable keeping her from falling into the volcano. Plus, she was only able to fight after Shinji gave her his knife. As for Matariel, she's the one who had to come up with that plan of attack, but that's after she lost all of their rifles and Shinji had to keep her and Rei from falling to the bottom of that shaft and taking an acid bath.


Alaska Slim wrote:QFT, the moment Asuka arrives she is decisive and open to action, Shinji had to be goaded into action three damn times, and still fell apart at the end, Asuka meanwhile was beaten down by the universe itself, repeatedly, and unlike Shinji, she had a reason to believe people hated her, because her mother told her so.



Shinji has a reason to believe people hate him too. It's named Gendo.

Alaska Slim wrote:She tries so damn hard, strives to be what is called of her, all the while having personal demons equal to or greater than what the others were dealing with, and only to have her own sense of meaning stolen by some kid, whose not only weak, but doesn’t even seem to care half the damn time! Then to be rescued by the virtual embodiment of what she fears most… it’s beyond words.

Shinji was an ass who couldn’t be bothered because he was too afraid, Asuka put forth her best and instead got fate’s door slammed in her face. :hmph:


I dunno if I'd say Asuka's personal demons were greater than Shinji's or Rei's. She's not the only one who saw her mother die, nor has she been conditioned to be a nearly-emotionless girl.

And since when does Shinji not care? If he didn't care, he would have left for good back after Shamshel attacked.

Shinji is one of the last people I'd call a coward, especially after Zeruel.
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Postby Gamer_2k4 » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:44 am

From a pure sympathy standpoint, I'd say it's because Asuka's life and abilities should make her the best pilot of the three; her arrogance SHOULD be justified. And yet, not matter how hard she tries (with a couple of exceptions), she keeps losing.

Shinji, on the other hand, wins battles with relative ease, either through the assistance of his Eva (berserk mode or dummy plug), or simply by following orders to the letter (shooting a positron rifle). He has no reason to be good at piloting, yet he is, and despite all that, he whines constantly. Heck, Shinji's even left and rejoined NERV two or three times. It's kind of hard to be sympathetic with someone like that.

Oh, also, Asuka's a girl. Yes, it's a stereotype, but the fact is, the vast majority of male lead characters we see in animes are the "surpass the impossible and kick reason to the curb" types. Because of that, Shinji seems relatively way more whiney than Asuka just by sheer contrast.

CyberXIII wrote:I dunno if I'd say Asuka's personal demons were greater than Shinji's or Rei's. She's not the only one who saw her mother die, nor has she been conditioned to be a nearly-emotionless girl.

Perhaps not, but there's a pretty substantial difference between Asuka's experience and Shinji's. Shinji saw his mother suffer an unfortunate accident while trying to make the world a better place. Asuka saw her mother go crazy, ignore her, and try to kill the doll that she thought was Asuka before committing suicide.
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Postby Alaska Slim » Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:29 pm

CyberXIII wrote:
Alaska Slim wrote:You're forgetting Sandalphon which she took on virtually alone, and Matariel, for which she came up with the plan of attack and took up the most dangerous role.

She's also the one who Shinji had to jump and rescue after Sandy cut the cable keeping her from falling into the volcano. Plus, she was only able to fight after Shinji gave her his knife.

Irrelevent, she still fought it alone, you're asking for skill, there it is, as is her plan of attack for Matariel.

CyberXIII wrote:As for Matariel, she's the one who had to come up with that plan of attack, but that's after she lost all of their rifles

That wasn't her fault at all, Matariel was attacking from above with its acid, causing them all to slip. That, on top of their combined weight, is what caused them all to fall.

CyberXIII wrote:falling to the bottom of that shaft and taking an acid bath.

Rei's part was to go down to the bottom of the shaft and get the rifle in the first place, there was no acid compiled there.

CyberXIII wrote:
Alaska Slim wrote:QFT, the moment Asuka arrives she is decisive and open to action, Shinji had to be goaded into action three damn times, and still fell apart at the end, Asuka meanwhile was beaten down by the universe itself, repeatedly, and unlike Shinji, she had a reason to believe people hated her, because her mother told her so.

Shinji has a reason to believe people hate him too. It's named Gendo.

No, Gendo leaves him unsure of himself, he does not confirm he hates him. There is no comparison, her mother said they were hated, tried to convince her to commit suicide, and her father and her step-mother left her virutally abandonded, not so much in what they did, but in what they said.

CyberXIII wrote:
Alaska Slim wrote:She tries so damn hard, strives to be what is called of her, all the while having personal demons equal to or greater than what the others were dealing with, and only to have her own sense of meaning stolen by some kid, whose not only weak, but doesn’t even seem to care half the damn time! Then to be rescued by the virtual embodiment of what she fears most… it’s beyond words.

Shinji was an ass who couldn’t be bothered because he was too afraid, Asuka put forth her best and instead got fate’s door slammed in her face. :hmph:

I dunno if I'd say Asuka's personal demons were greater than Shinji's or Rei's.


Rei was, either made or raised, with the mind set of one set purpose, she never had a family to begin with, thus she was unsure if she should even be sad, she just didn't know, and went along with what she was ordered in hopes that she could "return to nothing". In the end, her own development was sacrificed to turn her into a plot device, so any comparison of her is meaningless anyway.

Shinji, there is no comparison, Asuka had it worse, both parents stated disdain for her, and one wished for her to die.

CyberXIII wrote:And since when does Shinji not care? If he didn't care,

Not nearly enough, he was more worried about feeling guilty over his actions, rather than doing what was neccesaury, that's why he piloted to begin with, why he nearly left the first time, and virtually did so the second. That's why he was convinced to come back, that's why he fell apart at the end, and that's why he was convinced to pilot once more. It all varied on which action he felt more guilty of not doing, so yes, he lacked conviction, the ability to care all because he was concerned first and for most of how he would feel about it later.

CyberXIII wrote:Shinji is one of the last people I'd call a coward, especially after Zeruel.

Guilt, that's all it was, that certiantly isn't courage. :um-no:
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Postby Synapsid » Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:06 pm

Xard wrote: if REAL Action Girl Doombitch Yoko is archetype of woman... oh boy!
To be accurate she’s an archetype of just what the otaku would like to see in a female action hero, and her design certainly plays along that...it also couldn’t be reversed easily: Manslut Yoko-kun would undoubtedly make the otaku uncomfortable.
Alaska Slim wrote:Guilt, that's all it was, that certiantly isn't courage. :um-no:
Tell me, what exactly is courage? What type of motivation would make it courage? Throughout the show Shinji falls but manages to crawl back up right till the end, I think that counts well enough for an abstract idea.
Remember he isn’t some sort of professional soldier like Asuka or Rei , but he still stays around to help even though it’s something outside of what he should do, so the circumstances he falls under are a bit different.
Irrelevent, she still fought it alone, you're asking for skill, there it is, as is her plan of attack for Matariel.

Tell me, why should skill be relevant when judging their characters? It’s true Asuka has been trained as a pilot from childhood so she has something of a better grasp over it than him, but that doesn’t change any of the character behind them, asides from explaining why she’s been conditioned to combat and Shinji isn’t. (and despite the “skill” she does make rather foolish errors because of her personal problems as well, just look at 9 and 22 as to what her goals can result in)
No, Gendo leaves him unsure of himself, he does not confirm he hates him. There is no comparison...
You can’t quite say that, Gendo’s sick Stockholm treatment and manipulation of Shinji isn’t the same as Asuka’s trauma, but it’s rater presumptive of you to ignore how something like that can totally fuck up a person, especially as how he has no other parent to turn to.
Last edited by Synapsid on Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's a trap!|Saigo no shisha seitenkan
Genderbending is an important part of any fandom and must be taken very seriously. ZapalacX
If you ever say that name again, I will hunt you down and neuter you with a spork. Sailor Star Dust *cue Shinji's bloodcurling girly scream* LiLi
leave my innocent Shinjiko thread alone! Reichu Asuka would be the one going "SURPRISE BUTTSEKS, BAKA!!!!" while of course in appropriate dress and, *cough, gulp, snort*, with a certain strapped on accessory THE Hal E. Burton 9000


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