How was 3I inevitable? (Also, plothole)

[CyberXIII]

Adam was pretty much inert at the beginning of the series, and Lillith had her soul ripped out and shoved into Rei.

With these measures, if the Angels were all dead, how was 3I going to be initiated without SEELE's interference?

Incidentally, if the Angel's forms are defined by their AT fields, and the AT Field requires a soul present, then why wasn't Lillith reduced to a pile of goo when Rei was created?

[AyrYntake]

We can only assume that Lilith's soul was partially left behind which accounts for the onscreen "okaeri nasai" in response to Rei's "tadaima" during EoE Air.
The inevitability of the entire thing is just down to the fact that everyone in control of the situation ultimately wants the Third Impact to happen, be it the Angels, NERV or SEELE. To that effect the Third Impact that actually happened was pretty much instigated simultaneously by two different agents, Gendo with Rei in Terminal Dogma (by giving her Adam's embryo and she running off with it) and SEELE's Evas doing their AT Field thing.

[Joseph the PRPD]

It was inevitable because Gendo would use Rei to make his third impact.

[NemZ]

It's inevitable in the sense that mankind, with a seemingly limitless ability to find clever ways to do stupid new things, would eventually use it. 3I is like a bright red, shiny, candy-like button.

[AuraTwilight]

Incidentally, if the Angel's forms are defined by their AT fields, and the AT Field requires a soul present, then why wasn't Lillith reduced to a pile of goo when Rei was created?

Only LCL needs an AT Field to keep it's shape. While the AT Field does define their shape, Angelic beings are made of Particle Wave Matter, basically solid light, and it keeps it's shape even without an AT Field present.

Adam was pretty much inert at the beginning of the series, and Lillith had her soul ripped out and shoved into Rei.

With these measures, if the Angels were all dead, how was 3I going to be initiated without SEELE's interference?

So during 3I Rei basically becomes a goddess and can now span throughout time and space, right? Right.

We see this spirit from the future visiting Shinji and watching him from the distance in the first episode, right? Right.

In order for this to happen, Rei needs to ascend to godhood at sometime in the future, right? Right.

It's inevitable because of a Time Paradox, on a metaphysical level.

It's inevitable because humans are assholes, on a social commentary level.

[Allemann]

The Third Impact could have been avoided if there was a coup d'état inside SEELE during invasion on NERV base. A splinter group of younger members dissatisfied by old men's ramblings, maybe given a more alluring offer by a third party.

Keel and gang get a nasty surprise when those bombers carrying MP Eva arrive at Geofront and then get suddenly withdrawn.

[Merridian]

if the Angels were all dead, how was 3I going to be initiated without SEELE's interference?

This is like asking how the D-Day invasion would have gone without Nazi Germany’s interference. You can’t discuss Eva-backstory and ignore SEELE—they started 2nd Impact with the intent of fulfilling a 3rd Impact, and there had to be an exorbitant amount of planning that went on for years before the 2nd Impact also. At this point, you’d be looking at a machine with treads so well greased that a 3rd Impact was unavoidable.

The Third Impact could have been avoided if there was a coup d'état inside SEELE during invasion on NERV base. A splinter group of younger members dissatisfied by old men's ramblings, maybe given a more alluring offer by a third party.

I don’t think this would have even helped. Metaphysics aside, I’m sure SEELE was far too cunning to be deposed by a coup, not to mention that the members themselves would have to be located first (which seemed like an incredibly difficult task to begin with), and then disposed of. If the organization was as powerful as the show presents, I’m sure they had counter-coup and counter-counter-counter-coup divisions going on all over the place. Not to mention that it was unlikely anyone outside the upper echelon of old fogies knew what the organization was even DOING—the best way to keep a conspiracy under wraps is to inform as few people as possible.

[Allemann]

(...) I’m sure SEELE was far too cunning to be deposed by a coup, not to mention that the members themselves would have to be located first (which seemed like an incredibly difficult task to begin with), and then disposed of.

If you're a SEELE member, you probably know where others are. They're all high ranking UN officials in individual countries. They do have to have a public life - a house with a secret holographic chamber. Even Shinji find out Gendo's phone number, and he's a SEELE member.

If the organization was as powerful as the show presents, I’m sure they had counter-coup and counter-counter-counter-coup divisions going on all over the place.

They're influential inside the UN; they don't control individual governments. To get JSSDF they had to call the Japanese prime minister, Jet Alone had to be sabotaged by Gendo, Kaji's sent by the Japanese goverment. There not powerful how people think.

Gendo himself was successful at making a charade, and they took some time until they succeeded eliminating Kaji. If small fries like Gendo and Kaji can play behind their backs for months, an inner rim SEELE member could scheme a large plan unnoticed. From what I have seen, SEELE is based on mutual trust and a religious zeal as a centuries old esoteric society. They're paranoid about outsiders, but inside they all lick each other's paws. Big mistake. Their zeal blinded them.

Not to mention that it was unlikely anyone outside the upper echelon of old fogies knew what the organization was even DOING—the best way to keep a conspiracy under wraps is to inform as few people as possible.

We don't know much about SEELE, but you can't be a member of it if you don't know and follow its goal.

[DatDude]

We could debate causality vs free will all day. I for one hate circular story telling hence why certain ideas about rebuild regardless of their source kill the love for me.

[Alaska Slim]

So during 3I Rei basically becomes a goddess and can now span throughout time and space, right? Right.

NO! YOU FOOL!

SPOILER: Show

For God sakes, don't give him a jumping off point! You might as well be chanting his name in some dark ceremony to summon him here! !

[Sammaeloo]

NO! YOU FOOL!

SPOILER: Show

For God sakes, don't give him a jumping off point! You might as well be chanting his name in some dark ceremony to summon him here! !

SPOILER: Show

Who would be summoned here. Sounds spooky.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Whether or not Gendo caused 3I, Seele would have using Eva Series... Which is why the Divinity Trinity (Yui/Lilith/Adam) was trying to get it done and over with.


Also, Aura's on the money about Lilith. (But no love hell-train Rei (also bookend Rei)? )

[Allemann]

If MP Evas weren't there, would Instrumentality be even possible?

[NemZ]

It's inevitable because of a Time Paradox, on a metaphysical level.

Okay, but does anyone but Shinji (and Toji in the hosptial) ever see her? Did she travel back far enough to tell a young Yui and set this whole thing up?

[AuraTwilight]

If MP Evas weren't there, would Instrumentality be even possible?

Yes. There's so many different ways to pull it off I bet MacGyver could do it with a banana and two paper clips.

Okay, but does anyone but Shinji (and Toji in the hosptial) ever see her? Did she travel back far enough to tell a young Yui and set this whole thing up?

It's not really necessary. The mere fact that in the future she gets the power to come back in time means that she must acquire this power, and whatever version of her gains this power must have the same memories, personality, etc. as the time traveller. Bookend Rei must force her own existence due to causality fuckups.

Though ignoring that, it's entirely possible. I can totally imagine Rei visint Yui in a dream and being all "Yo dawg I herd u like Shinji so you're gettin in Eva so you can mother while beasting and he can beast while mother."

It could also explain why Rei is popped out during the Salvaging attempt, and why Yui seems to accept Rei as a pilot. SHE RECOGNIZES HER COLLABORATOR.

Infact, due to a conversation with Carla, I'm considering that Rei COULD'VE HELPED WRITE THE SECRET DEAD SEA SCROLLS TO CONTAIN KNOWLEDGE OF THE FUTURE.

And taking that farther, Rei COULD'VE COLLABORATED WITH THE FAR IN PRODUCTION OF THE SEEDS, AND MAY HAVE INTERFERED WITH LILITH'S COURSE IN ORDER TO PREVENT A PARADOX.

And taking it even further, Rei CAUSED THE BIG BANG, AND THE PURPOSE OF THE UNIVERSE IS TO RESULT IN HER OWN CREATION.

Goddamn, this is an awesome theory. I'm not even on anything.

[NemZ]

Goddamn, this is an awesome theory. I'm not even on anything.

I guess I wasn't clear enough... I was wondering how all the people running around on the assumption that 3I is inevitable actually know this.

The theory still has holes, however. For example, experiments in quantum mechanics have demonstrated that the future events can alter the past. Thus it's possible that determinism is a lie perpetuated by the illusion of a coherent past, when in actuality the past as we know it may be constantly changing to suport the current present. Any decision might involve choosing not only different futures, but simultaneously choosing different pasts.

Or maybe timetraveling Rei is the sum of all Reis across the multiverse that achieved 3I, an entity with the power to project into the past of all universes, not merely the ones where she ascended.

[Allemann]

Yes. There's so many different ways to pull it off I bet MacGyver could do it with a banana and two paper clips.

MP Evas are necessary. Without their S2 Engines you don't have adequate energy to power the process. Not to mention, no Tree Of Life.

[AuraTwilight]

I guess I wasn't clear enough... I was wondering how all the people running around on the assumption that 3I is inevitable actually know this.

"lolz humans haet each other guy."

The theory still has holes, however. For example, experiments in quantum mechanics have demonstrated that the future events can alter the past. Thus it's possible that determinism is a lie perpetuated by the illusion of a coherent past, when in actuality the past as we know it may be constantly changing to suport the current present. Any decision might involve choosing not only different futures, but simultaneously choosing different pasts.

I'm aware of that possibility, but that leads to Angelic Days possibly being a canon, existing universe somewhere, and I'm sure any decent human being, like Rei, would make it so that no such universe could ever come to fruition.

Plus time paradoxes are just plain fun to make. It's trolling on a 4th dimensional level.

Or maybe timetraveling Rei is the sum of all Reis across the multiverse that achieved 3I, an entity with the power to project into the past of all universes, not merely the ones where she ascended.

Great, let's muddle the question of Rei's identity even more. "Now that I've finally found my concept of self-identity, I'm going to commence instrumentality with myself infinitely across the multiverse."

MP Evas are necessary. Without their S2 Engines you don't have adequate energy to power the process. Not to mention, no Tree Of Life.

Yo dawg I heard you like S2 Engines so we conveniently reminded you that we have both Adam and Unit 01 lol.

[CyberXIII]

When I said 3I was inevitable, I meant in terms of the Angels themselves. If Adam had been destroyed outright, couldn't this mess have been avoided?

2I wasn't enough to do it, but what if it had been? Could 3I still occur without him?

[carla]

If the organization was as powerful as the show presents, I’m sure they had counter-coup and counter-counter-counter-coup divisions going on all over the place.

They're influential inside the UN; they don't control individual governments. To get JSSDF they had to call the Japanese prime minister, Jet Alone had to be sabotaged by Gendo, Kaji's sent by the Japanese goverment. There not powerful how people think.

Gendo himself was successful at making a charade, and they took some time until they succeeded eliminating Kaji. If small fries like Gendo and Kaji can play behind their backs for months, an inner rim SEELE member could scheme a large plan unnoticed.

i'd also like to point out that Kaji seemed to steal adam from their hold rather easily. that at least tells me not to put too much stock on their security system.


in my opinion, was it inevitable? in this continuity, i guess it was. bookend!Rei says it is, i guess-- if EoE hadn't happened, one could dismiss the apparition in episode 1 as: "oh, Shinji just hallucinated" but admittedly it's a stretch. the odds of hallucinating someone you're going to meet just a few hours later are astronomical.

and on a social commentary basis, one can't definitely say "shyeah, someone's going to bring it up again eventually" but it's a good bet, and it's a good theme, as well.

doesn't mean i think it's right for people (gendo/yui/fuyutsuki/you name it) to go "i'll just do it my way this time around so that it can't happen again"-- i'd hope people would go "we'll stop it before it happens this time, and we'll do the same the next time it happens and so on until either it kills us or we evolve to be as smart/powerful as the FAR were so we can figure out a way to kill the stupid SoLs so they can't hurt us anymore." but i guess i'm just too much of an optimist... as a social commentary, it does seem like people aren't likely to behave that way, so...

however, it's not like adam & lilith were instinctually attracted to each other or anything. they don't gravitate towards the other like angels do to adam. and if they were kept separate and inactive, and nobody else intervened, 3I wouldn't have happened at that point. so it wasn't inevitable inevitable, it was just inevitable that someone would stick his/her nose where he shouldn't, eventually.

maybe if someone/some organization had up and shot every single SEELE member and gendo before sachiel's attack, and burned every last word of the DSS, and NERV had continued using the evas to fight angels under the initial idea of saving the world from 3I instead of going for instrumentality, then they would've had a few decades of peace before the next psycho started figuring things out.