Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Archer » Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:45 pm

The Dragon Mask wrote: it's clear from the background materials it covers several things they would have shown had they had the time or budget.

My hunch is that Ep 25 would've covered the events of Ep 25' (except probably without the hospital scene, since I assume TV anime has more restrictions on what can be shown), while Ep 26 would've been a fusion of the existing Eps 25 and 26 instead of anything resembling EoE's Instrumentality. What background materials are you talking about? The only pre-production material I'm aware of is the NGE proposal, and that one has a pretty wildly different finale where North America gets destroyed by 100 angels that come down from the moon... or something like that.

The Dragon Mask wrote:I also wonder just how things would be different if Q had been just 3+Final, even if it had the runtime of 3.0+1.0, it still would ultimately probably be less satisfying than what we will end up with pretty soon.

I agree. Much like how EoTV's lack of production time eventually yielded EoE, which is way longer and higher-budget than its hypothetical made-for-TV counterpart would've been, it's better to wait for a superior product (even if it takes an ungodly long time, lol) than to have a cut-down version rushed for an earlier release. After all, the wait is temporary - whatever they release is forever (...at least until they decide to make 3.33 + 1.11 :shifty: ).

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Zusuchan » Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:40 am

Archer: I do find the idea of a slightly more explanatory title card at the beginning of EoTV appealing.

As for your statement that EoTV doesn't work in context because the series still maintained its continuity previously, I...have to disagree. In my opinion, EoTV is very much a natural extension of what came before and I feel that if NGE had had a second series that continued the show's descent into abstraction etc., EoTV would have been its natural endgame in a way as well. So while the rest of the series wasn't as out-there as EoTV, I think it still works because the series was already on its way to increasing levels of surrealism, abstraction, just plain weirdness and foregoing of traditional plot elements (by refusing to state important plot points and instead forcing the audience to pick up clues and even having an extremely hole-y plot with ep.24-I mean it, the plot of that does not make sense under close examination) and because focusing on psychology instead of some sort of plot is also a good way to remind the audience why they're even there-it's the themes and the characters and the aesthetics, not anything else.

But I guess this is really a matter of personal opinion.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Archer » Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:10 am

I don’t take any issue with the abstractness or surrealism, just the lack of a concrete bridge between where the real world ends and the abstraction begins. As I said previously - include that bit of intro narration and I’d be completely happy with EoTV.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Zusuchan » Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:29 pm

Yeah, no problem with that.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby The Dragon Mask » Tue Mar 02, 2021 6:28 pm

View Original PostArcher wrote:
View Original PostThe Dragon Mask wrote: it's clear from the background materials it covers several things they would have shown had they had the time or budget.

My hunch is that Ep 25 would've covered the events of Ep 25' (except probably without the hospital scene, since I assume TV anime has more restrictions on what can be shown), while Ep 26 would've been a fusion of the existing Eps 25 and 26 instead of anything resembling EoE's Instrumentality. What background materials are you talking about? The only pre-production material I'm aware of is the NGE proposal, and that one has a pretty wildly different finale where North America gets destroyed by 100 angels that come down from the moon... or something like that.

View Original PostThe Dragon Mask wrote:I also wonder just how things would be different if Q had been just 3+Final, even if it had the runtime of 3.0+1.0, it still would ultimately probably be less satisfying than what we will end up with pretty soon.

I agree. Much like how EoTV's lack of production time eventually yielded EoE, which is way longer and higher-budget than its hypothetical made-for-TV counterpart would've been, it's better to wait for a superior product (even if it takes an ungodly long time, lol) than to have a cut-down version rushed for an earlier release. After all, the wait is temporary - whatever they release is forever (...at least until they decide to make 3.33 + 1.11 :shifty: ).


I'm having some difficulty finding it now but it was on evaotaku.com I'm pretty sure. There were some storyboards apparently made for EoTV that included Misato fighting JSSDF soldiers just like in EoE, and some stuff with unit 02 if I recall correctly. I'm trying to track it down, but it's proving quite annoyingly difficult to find again even though I thought I bookmarked it..

Anyways yeah I agree EoTV benefits from some concrete plot stuff. EoE fills that in quite well imo.

Edit: Oh and I'm glad you agree with me in regards to waiting for the better product rather than rushing it hehe. We'll see how that turned out soon enough.

Also to Zusuchan, I agree the series had definitely been heading further and further into total abstraction yeah. It is funny how episode 24 makes total sense to me now, but from an outsider looking in it can be totally insane.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Zusuchan » Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:25 pm

Episode 24 makes total sense to you? That's interesting, I still find there to be some mysterious unexplained stuff going on there.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby kuribo-04 » Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:28 pm

Kaworu knowing Adam is part of Gendo but being surprised by Lilith is almost "is this just a mistake" level of "I don't get it".
It's still perfect though. Perfect episode.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby The Dragon Mask » Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:16 am

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:Episode 24 makes total sense to you? That's interesting, I still find there to be some mysterious unexplained stuff going on there.

Yeah I mean I think I get it-
View Original Postkuribo-04 wrote:Kaworu knowing Adam is part of Gendo but being surprised by Lilith is almost "is this just a mistake" level of "I don't get it".
It's still perfect though. Perfect episode.

Hmm, I forgot about that lol. Maybe I need to rewatch it to become more confused?? lol

Overall though I do feel like I mostly get it yeah. The biggest mystery is why he trusted Seele, but to be fair, I think Kaworu knows a lot about his origins, much more than Rei, but I don't think he necessarily knows everything. His human incarnation was raised by Seele after all, and may have only been information that would lead him to think they wanted an Angel version impact event.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby kuribo-04 » Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:55 am

View Original PostThe Dragon Mask wrote:Hmm, I forgot about that lol. Maybe I need to rewatch it to become more confused?? lol

During that dialogue between Kaworu and Seele.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Zusuchan » Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:33 am

Even besides from why Kaworu went to Terminal Dogma and was surprised to find Lilith there, there's also the additional Seele members, moving angel statue and pretty much Kaworu's entire plan.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby kuribo-04 » Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:45 pm

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:Even besides from why Kaworu went to Terminal Dogma and was surprised to find Lilith there, there's also the additional Seele members, moving angel statue

I never thought aboit it that way. I like the idea of the statue moving around lol.
Shinji: "Sooner or later I'll be betrayed... And they'll leave me. Still... I want to meet them again, because I believe my feelings at that time were real."
Ryuko: "I'm gonna knock ya on your asses!"
-Asuka: THINK IN GERMAN!!! -Shinji: Öh... Baumkuchen...
Hayashida: "As game developers, our work is special. All of us here can put smiles on very many people's faces with our work."
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Re: NTE - general easter eggs

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Postby Archer » Sat Mar 20, 2021 7:54 pm

Just based on the 2.0 CRC’s, we know it wasn’t planned from the VERY beginning because it wasn’t until some time through 2.0’s development that the Rebuilds were steered away from being a more straightforward reboot/remake. I think it’s likely that the overall plot for 3.0 and Shin (like, whatever the “double feature” version was) was being brainstormed once they decided to diverge completely from NGE, and I wouldn’t be too shocked if the timeskip was one of the first “plot points” cemented for it.

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Re: NTE - general easter eggs

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Mar 21, 2021 7:23 am

View Original PostArcher wrote:Just based on the 2.0 CRC’s, we know it wasn’t planned from the VERY beginning because it wasn’t until some time through 2.0’s development that the Rebuilds were steered away from being a more straightforward reboot/remake. I think it’s likely that the overall plot for 3.0 and Shin (like, whatever the “double feature” version was) was being brainstormed once they decided to diverge completely from NGE, and I wouldn’t be too shocked if the timeskip was one of the first “plot points” cemented for it.

I see, well it makes sense that they would had decided for a timeskip to do what they wanted: NGE's story was ultimately about peoples' loneliness and fear to connect, hidden into a giant robot series (the big conspiracy behind the curtains to destroy humanity was secondary as there was nothing the heroes could do to stop it), and in NTE since Q, the story shifted into something broader, where the stakes are higher because now the heroes can do something against the evil conspiracy, and the theme becomes one of finding your place in the world and how to interact with it.
But such a thing is impossible to do if you keep the events of NGE, because at this point everything has already be set and planned by SEELE or Gendo, so there weren't much that could be done with the heroes without breaking everything first (like in NGE/EoE, where Kaji and ultimately Misato's efforts to stop SEELE and Gendo amounted to nothing, and the day was only saved because Rei and Yui ultimately decided to give the keys of Instrumentality to Shinji), but breaking the set implies a lot of things to happen that will take the story away from giant robot fights and psychological exploration, so a timeskip (where all the things that weren't part of the story Anno wanted to tell were dumped) was the solution.

I wonder if Anno will say one day if the line about Urashima Tarō was added in as a foreshadowing once they decided to change the course of NTE and add the timeskip, or if it was after but they realized that it was a happy coincidence.
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Re: NTE - general easter eggs

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Postby ElMariachi » Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:54 pm

Sorry for the double post, but it turns out that we actually already have the answer of how long the timeskip has been planned, and it's since the beginning of the project!
The info is in the 3.0 BR booklet (courtesy of the 3.33 FAQ thread):
Big picture! (Sorry for the blurriness, all the more reason to spoiler tag)  SPOILER: Show
Image

The part were they say that going back and re-watch 1.0 and 2.0 knowing about the shocking events of 3.0 make us see them under a new light vindicates me in my theory that Kaji referencing Urashima Taro in 2.0 was indeed a foreshadowing of Shinji's fate.
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Seriously, that is the most fananked theory I've ever heard, more than Mari being Marty McFly travelling through time to keep her parents (Asushin) together. -- Jäeger

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Re: NTE - general easter eggs

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:44 pm

I've seen that quote already, and I still doubt it. I mean, George Lucas says everything in the Star Wars movies was planned all along, but everyone with eyes and a brain knows that's not true. :wink:

I still think that the Rebuilds' plot changed significantly over the course of production. I mean, there's no way Anno would create a whole mini-trailer for a movie that never ended up existing if it was all meticulously planned out. Also, this is the non-spoiler thread so I've got to be careful what I say, but certain plot points in the final movie also make me doubt that Anno has been planning everything all along. I feel like the 3.0 and 3.0+1.0 behind the scenes books releasing will shed a lot of light on what really happened behind the scenes.

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Re: NTE - general easter eggs

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Postby baldur » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:01 pm

ElMariachi wrote:turns out that we actually already have the answer of how long the timeskip has been planned, and it's since the beginning of the project!
The info is in the 3.0 BR booklet (courtesy of the 3.33 FAQ thread):

Interesting, I hadn't seen that before. My personal belief has always been that the timeskip was planned from very early on, so I'm not exactly surprised, but it's nice that there exists confirmation.
BusterMachine4 wrote:I still think that the Rebuilds' plot changed significantly over the course of production.

I mean, we obviously know that Rebuild (or indeed Evangelion in general) was not meticulously planned out; Anno is very open about his "gardener" approach to writing. That being said, I don't see any reason to doubt the idea that the timeskip was planned from early on.
BusterMachine4 wrote:I mean, there's no way Anno would create a whole mini-trailer for a movie that never ended up existing if it was all meticulously planned out.

Why not? If it was planned out, that means the difference in tone between 2.0 and 3.0 was a deliberate bait-and-switch. Making the preview for the next film deliberately misleading makes plenty of sense in that case.

And just personally, I think the core themes and ideas of Rebuild being planned from the beginning makes a lot more sense than Anno radically changing course on the entire direction of the series between each entry.

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Re: NTE - general easter eggs

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:41 pm

In hindsight, the films are more cohesive than they seemed on first watching. Having Shin available to watch now after Q does help it feel less like Q's timeskip comes out of nowhere, since now we know what comes after that film. It does help that for Shin, its timeline relation to Q is set up so that it picks up right after Q leaves off-- there's even less of a gap than there was between Jo and Ha.

It's not uncommon for stories in anime to be planned out years in advance. Just look at shows like Attack on Titan or One Piece, where there's a guiding plan that manages to span decades. I don't think Anno's trying to cover his ass, the films work well as a tetrology.

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Re: NTE - general easter eggs

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Postby baldur » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:45 pm

View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:I don't think Anno's trying to cover his ass, the films work well as a tetrology.

This. Haven't seen Shin and don't know any spoilers, but even just counting the first three films I think they work too well together to be a result of Anno having absolutely no plan or direction for the series while making it.

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Re: NTE - general easter eggs

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:49 pm

View Original Postbaldur wrote:
View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:I mean, there's no way Anno would create a whole mini-trailer for a movie that never ended up existing if it was all meticulously planned out.

Why not? If it was planned out, that means the difference in tone between 2.0 and 3.0 was a deliberate bait-and-switch. Making the preview for the next film deliberately misleading makes plenty of sense in that case.

Well, 2.0 was clearly supposed to be a "set up a false hope only to crush it" sort of movie, plan or no plan: the switch to a darker tone and more serious story happens within the movie itself.

But I don't quite comprehend why Anno would make a trailer for 3.0 if he knew everything in it was going to be a lie. I mean, he marketed the trailer as a preview for 3.0, and he even changed it to make it more accurate when the TV version of 2.0 was released. I think it's clearly a preview for a rough draft of 3.0 that never ended up materializing, not some sort of intentional false advertising.
And just personally, I think the core themes and ideas of Rebuild being planned from the beginning makes a lot more sense than Anno radically changing course on the entire direction of the series between each entry.

I'd say Anno changing his plans is more likely than you realize. I mean, these movies took a long time to make, as you're surely aware. I wouldn't be surprised if he originally wanted the Rebuilds to be a more optimistic remake of the original series, but eventually decided that wasn't interesting enough and scrapped his original plans.
Nuclear Lunchbox wrote:One Piece, where there's a guiding plan that manages to span decades.

Lol, that's obviously not true. The writer for that is clearly just making up crap as he goes along. And it works for an insanely long-running series like One Piece (seriously, that thing's longer than the Simpsons), but I'm not sure it works for Eva.

And you may have decided that the final movie makes the Rebuilds seem more planned out, but for me, reading the spoilers only made me more convinced that Anno doesn't have much of a plan for most of the movies. So many plot points seemed to come completely out of nowhere.

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Re: NTE - general easter eggs

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Postby Nuclear Lunchbox » Sun Mar 28, 2021 10:08 pm

View Original PostBusterMachine4 wrote:
View Original PostNuclear Lunchbox wrote:One Piece, where there's a guiding plan that manages to span decades.

Lol, that's obviously not true. The writer for that is clearly just making up crap as he goes along. And it works for an insanely long-running series like One Piece (seriously, that thing's longer than the Simpsons), but I'm not sure it works for Eva.

And you may have decided that the final movie makes the Rebuilds seem more planned out, but for me, reading the spoilers only made me more convinced that Anno doesn't have much of a plan for most of the movies. So many plot points seemed to come completely out of nowhere.

Considering we're not speculating as to the content of the series but the thoughts of the people making it, and we have statements from those people that they've planned everything, we can either take them at their word or assume they're lying, but assuming they're lying means we need to acknowledge we're directly contradicting statements from people about their own thoughts.


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