Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

Discussion of the new series of Evangelion movies ( "Evangelion Shin Gekijōban", meaning "Evangelion: New Theatrical Edition"). The final instalment made its debut in Japan on March 8, 2021.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:25 am

View Original PostPenPen4life wrote:No idea why you're bringing the prequels into this or what point you're responding to.


Yours was a needlessly combative post; please try to be rather more relaxed about things.

Also

>prequels

does make a rather large and controversial assumption.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:24 pm

View Original PostPenPen4life wrote:Again, every story has elements that could be paid off in later installments. Untill they are actually paid off, there's no need to assume they will be. If we aren't willing to discuss what is available, then we shouldn't discuss it at all.

I'm not stating that we should either. I'm just asking if the experience of watching the movies in their current state is satisfying without the conclusion. If Shin Eva never comes out, are these still satisfying movies to watch? (I would personally answer "yes," but that's just me. I've had great fun just watching up until Eva Q and leaving it as is. In fact, I even consider the "open ending" in Q to be rather hopeful, and if Anno decided to leave it there, I would have been happy.)
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby PenPen4life » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:09 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Yours was a needlessly combative post; please try to be rather more relaxed about things.

Also

>prequels

does make a rather large and controversial assumption.

aight.

And huh? The star wars prequels being prequels is an assumption?

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:I'm not stating that we should either. I'm just asking if the experience of watching the movies in their current state is satisfying without the conclusion.


Could you clarify your position here? Your inital reply to me talked about the Matrix as an example of a film whose sets ups had yet to be paid off and now you're talking about being satifised based on what's already been produced.

Your recent posts give me the impression you think I'm judging the film based on future installments...

I never said anything against "feeling satisfied" based on what's already being published. As it is, the feelings you have about a film are entirely subjective.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:27 pm

The first Matrix was satisfying despite being incomplete. The sequels were disappointing despite being complete. All of the things that complete the narrative in the sequels were considered by audiences to be boring and tedious. As funny as it sounds, The Matrix is often considered better (or, at the very least very enjoyable) in its incomplete form. Nobody likes completeing it, and many people prefer to aschew the sequels as canon anyway, thereby willingly denying Matrix of its completion in their head canon.

Can something similar be said of Rebuild? Like The Matrix, is Rebuild satisfying to watch despite its incomplete state? As The Matrix already proved, can Rebuild also be enjoyable (perhaps even forcibly) without a complete ending?
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:28 am

View Original PostPenPen4life wrote:And huh? The star wars prequels being prequels is an assumption?
I'd forgotten that this was the thread where we weren't actually talking about the Rebuilds any more.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby PenPen4life » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:55 am

View Original PostFreakyFilmFan4ever wrote:The first Matrix was satisfying despite being incomplete. The sequels were disappointing despite being complete. All of the things that complete the narrative in the sequels were considered by audiences to be boring and tedious.


Which would indicate that the payoffs were badly executed or badly written. If you consider Matrix good as a standalone, then that means that the content that was setup and paid off likely made up for the badly executed sets ups for later films.


can Rebuild also be enjoyable (perhaps even forcibly) without a complete ending?

Anything can be enjoyable...
View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:I'd forgotten that this was the thread where we weren't actually talking about the Rebuilds any more.

Joeski brought it up, asserting that the rebuilds and the prequels have the same kind of relationship to the original stories they're connected with.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:34 pm

View Original PostPenPen4life wrote:Which would indicate that the payoffs were badly executed or badly written. If you consider Matrix good as a standalone, then that means that the content that was setup and paid off likely made up for the badly executed sets ups for later films.

Not necessarily. Like I said before, the first Matrix film sets up things that have no pay off in the first film, and wouldn’t be paid off until the sequels. (Stuff like if Neo would have broken the vase of the Oracle hadn’t said anything. The whole sequels seem to made just to pay off that one set up in the first film.) Whole set up and pay off is important, the Wachowskis found that not everything needs to be paid off in order for a film to be enjoyable; only certain things need to be paid off.

The same thing could be said of the “Rebuilds.” Not everything needs to be paid off in some form of a conclusion in order to be enjoyable. And certain open endings (such as the ones in the first Matrix film or the one in Eva Q) can be particularly fun or interesting for the viewer.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby BusterMachine4 » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:35 am

Given that FFFF linked here in the “music of 3.0+1.0” thread, I felt like it might be a good idea to continue that tangent conversation here.
View Original PostJäeger wrote:Let me Guess...the only Petit Eva you have seen is the ONA , right?

I actually haven’t seen any version of Petit Eva, but from what I’ve seen it doesn’t look very good to me. It’s just another overdone high school AU, mixed in with what seems like the Eva equivalent of Muppet Babies. I really don’t see how it could be more appealing than Rebuild.
And yeah, for me nte feels more like a EVA rip off than Eva itself. And that doesnt question its quality as movies.

How could the Rebuilds feel like an Eva rip-off? The characters are the same, and their psychological issues are still there. The plot still contains the same messages about needing to accept yourself and others. It’s even made by the same guy who made the original show! How could it feel like a rip-off, especially when compared to some of those mediocre fanfics you held up as being superior?

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:44 pm

Continued from here:

https://forum.evageeks.org/post/911128/Shin-Eva-Official-Social-Media-222-You-Can-Not-Release/#911128

View Original PostArcher wrote:Personally, that crosses the line for me where it goes from sci-fi that's vaguely plausible if you squint your eyes, into fantasy that's basically just Clarke's-Third-Rule science-themed magic.

You are 100% right here. The thing is, that is totally what they are doing on purpose. It comes down to if you like it or not.


At that point it just comes down to personal taste. Personally, for anything that's not a slice-of-life or a comedy, the ending matters to me more than anything else. Or perhaps more accurately, I care mostly about the overall package of how well a story works as a whole in its themes, characters and plot.

I'm the same actually. 3.0 just actually would work for me that way (mostly).

I agree NGE is much, much better with EoE, but I think EoTV would have worked, though it wouldn't have been nearly as climatic.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Archer » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:25 am

kuribo-04 wrote:The thing is, that is totally what they are doing on purpose. It comes down to if you like it or not.
'
I'm fully aware of that, and my complaints about it are more minor nitpicks than anything that actually bothers me. But just because they're doing it on purpose doesn't mean I'm not gonna find it kinda dumb. I should also specify that I'm using "dumb" more as a synonym for "silly" or "less serious" than as an insult. Like, if Unit 8.0+2.0 were still going to be a thing, it being intentionally dumb and schlocky doesn't make it not dumb and schlocky.

kuribo-04 wrote:I agree NGE is much, much better with EoE, but I think EoTV would have worked, though it wouldn't have been nearly as climatic.

The problem with EoTV is that it essentially ends the plot with a card saying "...and then everybody died, and Instrumentality happened". I just can't see how that's defensible from a story perspective (of course the IRL reasons of "they ran out of time and/or money" are completely understandable). I honestly wonder if Evangelion would have the lasting impact it enjoys today had EoE been endlessly delayed like 3.0+1.0 was, and released in 2005-2006 instead of 1997, or if it would've ended up like Game of Thrones or Darling in the Franxx** where the ending creates such a backlash that it pretty much kills all interest in the show, even if the stuff that came before was pretty good. Alternatively, I wonder if 3.0 would be as divisive had 3.0+1.0 (or whatever it was going to be called at the time) actually released back in 2012-2013.

**  SPOILER: Show
Conversely, if DitF got a movie a year after the anime aired that retconned the "lol aliens" ending, I don't think it would have its reputation as the posterchild of wasted potential and terrible endings.

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Re: Shin Eva - Official Social Media: 2.22 You Can (Not) Release

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Postby duppertip » Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:54 am

Kaworu didn't manifest as an Angel yet.
He couldn't do anything but kindly ask Shinji to reconsider what he is doing, which he did, and try to wrestle the control over EVA13 but the game was rigged and control was on Shinji's side. Him manifesting as an Angel to stop Shinji would be a bad option for him most likely, so he could only hope on Shinji's sanity.

In short, like in original he was checkmated and had no options that wouldn't hurt Shinji even more. That much is obvious from the movie.

Just as much obvious as the fact that Mari was more or less added to have Shinji, Asuka and Rei walk in the red wasteland and postimpact Japan for a while with Mari doing job and otherwise filling in role of "that other pilot".

So no, 3.33 didn't make viewers really hanging on secrets. 2.22 did though as 3.33 didn't address what happened. Most people want to know what was in the timeskip instead as the ending isn't nearly as intriguing in comparison to timeskip, EoE and lore mysteries.

I moved this post here, since this is where it should have been from the beginning.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby kuribo-04 » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:14 am

View Original PostArcher wrote:[Like, if Unit 8.0+2.0 were still going to be a thing, it being intentionally dumb and schlocky doesn't make it not dumb and schlocky.

I guess I just see it as less realistic. The Angels were always kind of crazs in that way even in the show.



The problem with EoTV is that it essentially ends the plot with a card saying "...and then everybody died, and Instrumentality happened". I just can't see how that's defensible from a story perspective (of course the IRL reasons of "they ran out of time and/or money" are completely understandable).

Tbh I found EoTV really creepy the first time I watched it because of that. Something happened, we don't know what, and now we're here.
Obviously I also knew I'd watch EoE afterwards.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Zusuchan » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:19 am

Archer wrote:
The problem with EoTV is that it essentially ends the plot with a card saying "...and then everybody died, and Instrumentality happened". I just can't see how that's defensible from a story perspective

I think it actually makes sense in some way-the series was already on its way to surrealist, abstract stuff from ep.14 onwards and had only strengthened its deliberately weird qualities like that since. Couple that and the fact the characters were all starting to get nearer to points where they were practically forced to confront their own psychological issues and some sort of an ultra-surrealist, ultra-abstract, introspective collage show which is entirely about the characters' psychology and them confronting themselves makes a lot of sense and the absence of traditional "plot" elements in EoTV is even cool in the sense that it makes NGE a presentation of what is truly important. That sort of distance from traditionally important plot elements and explanations in favor of character drama was also something that NGE was already gradually largening even before EoTV.

I do think EoE adds a lot to EoTV and NGE as a whole and it is my favorite film, so I wouldn't want it to not exist nor am I going to pretend it isn't a stronger ending to NGE than EoTV on its own would have been. But I also think the only big criticism of EoTV is that it's ambiguous in a bad sense-but even that is sort of taken away by EoE.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Archer » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:37 am

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:But I also think the only big criticism of EoTV is that it's ambiguous in a bad sense-but even that is sort of taken away by EoE.

That's kinda the exact argument I'm making - I can enjoy EoTV for what it is because EoE already exists, and because I know the perfectly valid IRL reasons for why the story cuts off abruptly. It's the exact same situation for me with 3.0. I absolutely believe it's ambiguous in a bad sense because this kind of deliberate ambiguity only works well when it's quickly followed up by a satisfying resolution instead of a nine year hiatus. At the same time, I understand that there's perfectly valid IRL reasons for why Shin got so ridiculously delayed (e.g. Anno's burnout/depression post-3.0).

Thus, while I'm not gonna pretend that I'm satisfied with 3.0 as it is now, I'll also give it a fair shake and watch it back-to-back with Shin and judge the story as it was "intended" to be viewed - as a single unit, without a nine year wait in between. Hell, it was originally conceived as the first half of a two-part film. Though I'm sure the story's changed a lot from when 3.0 and Final were going to be an EoE style pseudo double feature, the fact that the film's plot is likely derived from literally the first half of a movie would explain a lot about why it feels so incomplete and dependent on the final part for its resolutions.

With regards to actual plot points that need answering to, the worst offender by far is the apparent incongruity between what we see at the end of 2.0 (Shinji fucks up but the damage is mostly localized to the Geofront) and the beginning of 3.0 (the world's completely fucked up and everyone blames Shinji for it). I don't care how this is explained. It can be that WILLE is unjustified for being a dick to him, it can be that there were some unseen events during the timeskip and that Shinji actually IS responsible... the issue is that right now it's just stuck in a quantum superposition, and we literally don't have any clues to even start making informed guesses on what actually happened. That ambiguity will be easier to appreciate as a deliberate stylistic choice once it's (...hopefully) resolved in 3.0+1.0. But like EoTV, without the resolution of knowing what "actually" happens, it's just frustrating and unsatisfying.

View Original PostZusuchan wrote:I think it actually makes sense in some way-the series was already on its way to surrealist, abstract stuff from ep.14 onwards and had only strengthened its deliberately weird qualities like that since. Couple that and the fact the characters were all starting to get nearer to points where they were practically forced to confront their own psychological issues and some sort of an ultra-surrealist, ultra-abstract, introspective collage show which is entirely about the characters' psychology and them confronting themselves makes a lot of sense and the absence of traditional "plot" elements in EoTV is even cool in the sense that it makes NGE a presentation of what is truly important.

That's definitely a valid interpretation, but at the end of the day it's still just a post-facto justification for the lack of production time, and in the absence of EoE would fail to convince me that EoTV is actually a good, satisfying ending to the series. In a way though, I'm glad that EoTV exists, because without it we wouldn't have EoE in the first place. If they had time to go through with their original plans, Ep 25 likely would've been a shorter and lower-budget Asuka vs. MPE fight and NERV raid and Ep 26 likely would've been a blend of the actual Eps 25 and 26, and we would've never gotten the psychedelic insanity that is EoE's instrumentality.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Zusuchan » Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:48 pm

I probably should have clarified that EoTV's ambiguity being bad is largely because it can be read also as Shinji choosing escapism over reality in a way and even though I'm pretty sure that wasn't Anno's intention, I can certainly see how that's a valid interpretation of what happened. Which is why I feel EoE is great in that it clarifies the issue. I have nothing against the idea of EoTV refusing to give us the information EoE offered in its first half.


As for the "post-facto justification" thing, while that's certainly true, I also feel that there's no reason to not critically analyze the reasons for certain artworks' certain qualities just because those qualities are known to have been the result of material problems or other such things. Unintended ideas can still work well as a part of an artwork's fabric and I believe that in the instance of NGE, Anno made EoTV what it was so as to have it make sense and be a natural extension of what went before, even if its nature was indeed largely thanks to production issues.

The rest is a matter of personal taste, so I'm not too sure about arguing that.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Archer » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:29 pm

I do think it's interesting to talk about how limitations have affected a work - after all a lot of great art is borne of limitations. It's just that in this case, I really don't think the end result worked out. While Shinji is inarguably the main character of Eva, it's not just his story, the narrative and the other characters are still important. I would argue that the plot and characters being ignored is an objective flaw - whether or not that flaw bothers you and detracts from your opinion of the ending is up to personal preference.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby FreakyFilmFan4ever » Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:27 am

I actually like how EoTV visually handled its look into Third Impact, but I don't think it would be acceptable to do so without EoE's (then upcoming) perspective shift. I kinda feel like both is needed.
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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Zusuchan » Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:21 pm

Archer wrote:
While Shinji is inarguably the main character of Eva, it's not just his story, the narrative and the other characters are still important. I would argue that the plot and characters being ignored is an objective flaw - whether or not that flaw bothers you and detracts from your opinion of the ending is up to personal preference.

Well, about the characters, we do get tidbits into the inner worlds of Asuka, Rei and Misato in ep.25-as a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure there's more time spent on analyzing their issues in EoTV than there really is in EoE, in which most of the discussion is small and primarily acts as an extension of what we already saw in EoTV. I won't deny ep.26 is primarily centered on Shinji, but then again, EoE is primarily centered on him as well, though I guess the point of EoE doing more to send off its larger cast of characters being better than EoTV's approach of centering on Shinji and then giving us some insight into the other three main characters is a valid one. Still, even in EoE, we don't get to know much of Aoba's or Hyuga's Instrumentality experiences, so I guess it's a bit of a balance with the favor slightly falling for EoE.

As for the plot, I quite frankly don't care about the plot. I feel there's a far too large insistence on its importance by most Westerners I've come to know and I think whether or not traditional narrative elements being ignored or deconstructed or [insert something here] is a bad choice or not depends entirely on what artwork exactly we're discussing and whether or not that decision makes sense and works within that artwork. And within EoTV, I think it does, even on its own, divorced from EoE. That's for the reasons of increasing abstraction and distancing from traditional "plot/narrative" elements, along with the characters being forced more and more into corners until they'd have no choice but to confront their inner worlds I mentioned above. EoTV does actually work as an extension of what came before and while I do think EoE is better at telling us the same story and adds a lot to the final episodes, I also feel EoTV isn't that bad on its own.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby Archer » Mon Mar 01, 2021 2:18 pm

Thinking back on it a bit more, my gripe isn't even with the other characters being ignored - it's literally just with the discontinuity between the end of Ep 24 and the start of Instrumentality. I don't even care for a particularly detailed resolution to the plot, I just want something. All I'd need is a title card or a simple narration saying something like:
"After the 17th Angel's failed attempt to merge with Adam in Terminal Dogma, SEELE takes matters in their own hands, launching an all-out assault on NERV HQ. Unable to turn the tide against SEELE's forces, NERV falls and Terminal Dogma is breached, starting the Instrumentality of Mankind."

This wouldn't be particularly satisfying, but if we got even that much I'd at least consider EoTV complete and standalone. As it is now, without EoE, I have to make a whole bunch of completely baseless assumptions to narratively bridge the gap between Ep 24 and 25.

With the previous episodes, Evangelion sets the expectation for a more-or-less linear and complete sequence of events in the "real world", where what happens is either stated or can be inferred from other information, with internal “mindscape” scenes interspersed that mostly take place during clearly defined events. It’s not like Perfect Blue or American Psycho, where the line between reality and the protagonist’s inner world is intentionally blurred to mirror their insanity/delusion. Thus, when this expectation of a logical sequence of events is broken for the climactic final conflict where the bad guys win and the world ends, I argue that leaving out the chain of events between 24 and EoTV doesn’t work in context of the rest of the rest of the story where continuity has been mostly maintained, and thus makes it insufficient as a stand-alone ending.

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Re: Debate the quality of Rebuild here. [2]

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Postby The Dragon Mask » Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:57 pm

All this talk of EoTV and EoE makes me more motivated to remaster my brother and I's edit of the two together. We've shown people the whole show then the mix of the two endings we made and they didn't notice anything being off, it's really surprising how well it works.

If anyone is interested let me know. I can try to track down the 2nd version, which isn't HD but at least has both English and Japanese audio.

More on topic, yeah I agree EoTV just on it's own isn't as satisfying as it could be. I think EoE is a necessary piece, and it's clear from the background materials it covers several things they would have shown had they had the time or budget.

I also wonder just how things would be different if Q had been just 3+Final, even if it had the runtime of 3.0+1.0, it still would ultimately probably be less satisfying than what we will end up with pretty soon. I think ultimately the wait was crazy, but now I also feel like I will miss not knowing the end. Having some more Eva to look forward to for more than half my life has been kind of cool, although also pretty weird to consider now looking back.

As for the ultimate quality, I feel we can only judge that for sure once it's all said and done.


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