EVA-00's Soul

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Postby Shin-seiki » Sat Aug 15, 2009 7:50 am

As I have noted elsewhere, the CEs for both Yui and Kyouko are described in the CI as "failed" experiments (while Zero isn't mentioned one way or the other); was the original intent of the CEs to somehow 'copy' the soul of the test subjects into the EVA? And was Zero a success?

All we can say for sure, based on available evidence presented in the series itself, is that whatever ended up inside Zero is a) mentally unstable, b) has a grudge against Ritsuko, and c) looks like Rei. Speculation is that, based on what Rei II is missing, Zero's soul got Rei's sense of self, and instinct for self-preservation, and also retains the memory (and resultant grudge) of having been murdered by Naoko.

Could Rei I have been brought back to life in a new clone body, which was then immediately subjected to a CE with Zerogouki? That would give Gendo a twofer: Lilith's soul hidden in a vessel which could also serve as a pilot, and a compatible soul in Zero with which that pilot could synchronize. The CI doesn't spell this out, it only hints that there was a "special relationship" between Rei and her EVA. I shoud note as well, tho, that IIRC, SSD has stated that the gameplay of the NGE2 game depicts Zero's soul as Rei I.

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Postby Fazmotron » Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:37 am

Shin-seiki wrote:Could Rei I have been brought back to life in a new clone body, which was then immediately subjected to a CE with Zerogouki?


If this is the case, perhaps a successful CE would transfer (part?) of a soul to the Eva without physical or mental degeneration of the original body. As we see with Rei II, she not (overly) mentally unstable, and she retained her physical body. She is still a fully functional human being therefore her CE was classed as a success.

(just thinking out loud here)
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:50 am

I'm curious about exactly how 00 got her soul in the first place...Shogoki and Nigoki both explicitly had a 'Contact Experiment' with a willing, living subject interacting directly with an Eva, at least, if Yui's Dive Suit is anything to go by...
Yet the main candidates for Zerogoki's resident were both deceased before any 'contact' had taken place...

Can a contact experiment be performed on a corpse? Perhaps it can, but the soul is 'damaged' somehow, and is the cause of Zerogoki's rebellious nature.


Maybe. Or they could've just pulled it out, then shoved it in.

Perhaps a soul will flee to a new container if one is nearby...or perhaps it is a unique trait of the souls of the Progenitors of Life...


Souls don't work that way.

Specific mention is made in the CI that Seele somehow 'retrieved' Adam's soul, which had fled her body...how did they retrieve it? What form was it in? Was it in an original Kaworu, and the Tabris just a clone of him?


I imagine that Kaworu was just born, and they seized it and raised it. The actual Tabris vessel isn't really relevant, so they DID salvage the soul.

According to Sadamoto , its the thoughts akin to between a mother and her child, or two lovers, which fuel synchronisation
Meaning its entirely plausible that the soul of anyone will do, so long as they have some degree of love for the pilot.


First off, Sadamoto isn't all that reliable.

Secondly, you're comparing the bond of couples to the love of mother and child. In the Evaverse. ARE YOU NUTS? Putting a lover in the Evangelion is like the worst idea ever.

Consider then that, if it is Rei1's soul in Zerogoki, then her ability to synchronize is determined by her ability to love herself, specifically, to love who she has become, compared to who she was.
This ties in well to one of the themes of Evangelion, of the individual being able to accept who they are and what they have become.


Too bad Rei doesn't love herself. If it's her own soul, it probably doesn't require such emotional investment. The AT Field doesn't block out your own self.

Addendum: According to the Red Cross Book, Rei was cloned specifically from what was left of Yui's body after the Contact Experiment...which gives a approximate frame of reference for just when Rei1 and Naoko died,


The Red Cross Book is a piece of crap. Besides, considering that Yui's soul was absorbed into the Eva, there would be nothing left to clone from: She would have tanged.

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Postby Teague » Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:58 am

Ah, sorry, I'm not too familiar with the 'tiers of canonicity' in regards to the side material...I guess I need to lurk more...
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Postby Fazmotron » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:04 am

Well, everyone needs to LURK MOAR, but your information was very good for a new person, much better than most of the new people we get.

You're comparing the bond of couples to the love of mother and child.

The running theme in Eva seems to be that the love between mother and child is the greatest form of love. This is very explicitly displayed in EoE where Gendo is halved by Yui-sama for hurting her poor little Shinji.
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Postby Shin-seiki » Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:06 am

AuraTwilight wrote:The Red Cross Book is a piece of crap. Besides, considering that Yui's soul was absorbed into the Eva, there would be nothing left to clone from: She would have tanged.
Gendo and Fuyutsuki tried to bring her back (similar to what was tried with Shinji in #20), praps they were able to get something physically 'reconstituted' from Yui-juice, but couldn't get Yui's soul back into it. Also, I think you're going overboard with this "RCB is crap" stuff. I take everything in it as reliable canon unless/until proven otherwise. As far as I know, there are a handfull of relatively minor errors, for which dismissing the whole thing is a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:28 am

Gendo and Fuyutsuki tried to bring her back (similar to what was tried with Shinji in #20), praps they were able to get something physically 'reconstituted' from Yui-juice, but couldn't get Yui's soul back into it.


That's not the same as cloning Rei from "the remains of Yui", though. That's making an entirely new body in her image.

Also, I think you're going overboard with this "RCB is crap" stuff. I take everything in it as reliable canon unless/until proven otherwise. As far as I know, there are a handfull of relatively minor errors, for which dismissing the whole thing is a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


LOL NAOKO IS TEH SOEL IN UNIT 00.

Considering that just about everything in the book that is correct can be found in other materials, it's essentially worthless, imo.

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Postby Ornette » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:27 am

AuraTwilight wrote:LOL NAOKO IS TEH SOEL IN UNIT 00.

The RCB says that? I can't find it anywhere.

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Postby LiLi » Sun Aug 16, 2009 3:26 am

Teague wrote:According to Sadamoto , its the thoughts akin to between a mother and her child, or two lovers, which fuel synchronisation
Meaning its entirely plausible that the soul of anyone will do, so long as they have some degree of love for the pilot.


Hi there.

I think Sadamoto's opinion on the subject might actually be relevant in this case, since it was him who reportedly suggested the "link between pilot & Mother" for the Evas to begin with.

I had never heard the part about lovers before... May I ask what your source is?

Equating the lovers/mother&child/self elements makes me think the following elements could be needed for the recipe to work - theoretically, at least:

1) A drive to "become one" with the pilot (allowing synchro, avoiding rejection)

2) A drive to protect the pilot (for the Eva to work properly)

(Here I'm supposing the soul in Eva 00 is the one of Rei I - putting Naoko inside the Eva bound to protect Rei would have made for a nice Dantesque punishment, but it seems like a recipe for failure/suicide in the Evaverse...)

Going into a bit more detail...

1) Should be self-explanatory in the "self" case - except maybe little Rei I and Rei II didn't quite work out as expected... (please see 2))

As for mother&child/lovers, I don't think it's all that weird, considering the Oedipal issues some of the main characters seem to have... and I'm thinking maybe they were implicitly comparing the drive to 'go back to the Mother's womb/get the child back into the womb and protect it' with the drive to join with a lover in the sense of both leading to lowering AT Fields => pilot & Eva becoming one => synchro. (:EDIT: Or, on the "physical level" - in terms of sadamotobiolobabble - allowing their A10 nerves-whatever to synch).

2) It would seem in Rei's case the second part isn't working too well... perhaps due to the alleged "mental instability" of the pilot - and of the Eva's soul, I guess? Also, Rei doesn't seem to have much of a will to protect herself - i.e. she lacks self-preservation instinct (I can be replaced... yaddayadda...) to the point some even say she has a deathwish, so...

Addendum: According to the Red Cross Book, Rei was cloned specifically from what was left of Yui's body after the Contact Experiment...which gives a approximate frame of reference for just when Rei1 and Naoko died,


That does seem consistent with what we see in the series...

:EDIT: In NGE, if I recall, in the episode in which Shinji gets tanged inside the Eva, it is stated that the elements originally composing him are still floating in the LCL soup => recovery can be attempted. They also say a similar recovery was attempted before but failed.

I interpreted that to mean they had tried to recover Yui in a similar fashion, but failed - and what was salvaged of her DNA from the soup was used to make Rei I, by combining it with pieces of Lilith somehow (or maybe using Lilith as an incubator?).

AFAIK, all cloning needs for starters is the nucleus of an adult cell with the genetic info (DNA) from the donor to replace the nucleus of the receiving oocyte's, after all...? (Mutations in the donor cell's DNA and DNA-stuff in the mitochondrial soup of the oocyte's cytoplasm would account for differences between donor and clone...)
Last edited by LiLi on Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:24 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:10 am

Sauce (there's more in the actual volume; though it's just Sadamoto jokingly saying the Eva would go berserk if he'd pilot one)

Back of manga volume 1 [url]http://www.evamonkey.com/writings_sadamoto02.php[/url] wrote:On the floor of the midbrain is the ventral tegmental system, that neurobiologists call region A10. Cells soaked in dopamine, certain emotions are processed here; such as the thoughts of two lovers--or of a parent and child. And it is the synchronization of the threads and bundles of A10 that splice pilot and Eva together; to become one entity, to fight. In other words, the power of love drives this weapon of mass destruction. Well, what a simple and corny and emotional and wonderful story.
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Postby LiLi » Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:20 am

Sailor Star Dust wrote:Sauce (there's more in the actual volume; though it's just Sadamoto jokingly saying the Eva would go berserk if he'd pilot one)

Back of manga volume 1 [url]http://www.evamonkey.com/writings_sadamoto02.php[/url] wrote:On the floor of the midbrain is the ventral tegmental system, that neurobiologists call region A10. Cells soaked in dopamine, certain emotions are processed here; such as the thoughts of two lovers--or of a parent and child. And it is the synchronization of the threads and bundles of A10 that splice pilot and Eva together; to become one entity, to fight. In other words, the power of love drives this weapon of mass destruction. Well, what a simple and corny and emotional and wonderful story.


Thanks! I'll check the release I have to see if it was included.
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Postby Great Genius Shinji-Sama » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:40 am

Please forgive my fanwankery here, but many fanfics have 00's soul being Nakoko(ritsuko's mom)'s soul; which is what they use for the reason Rei's activation test going craz and the incident with Shinji in Unit 00 in Oral Stage.

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Postby Shin-seiki » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:04 am

AuraTwilight wrote:
Gendo and Fuyutsuki tried to bring her back (similar to what was tried with Shinji in #20), praps they were able to get something physically 'reconstituted' from Yui-juice, but couldn't get Yui's soul back into it.


That's not the same as cloning Rei from "the remains of Yui", though. That's making an entirely new body in her image.
The issue of how Rei originally came to be is annoyingly vague and very much tends to invite fanwankery. Was she an accident or on purpose? Was Rei I made of PWM or ordinary matter? Any theory that purports to account for what we do know (i.e. we start out with Yui's soul in Yui, Lilith's soul in Lilith, and no soul in Unit-01, and end up with Yui's soul in Unit-01, Lilith's soul in Rei, and no soul in Lilith's body, while Yui's body has disappeared, and Rei's body resembles Yui as a child) should ideally do so with a minimum of just pulling stuff out of one's ass. But they make a big deal in #20 about how they try to re-create what was tried with Yui ten years before, so it seems at least reasonable to refer to what we see in going on #20 to fill in some the blanks regarding Yui and Rei's case.

Also, I think you're going overboard with this "RCB is crap" stuff. I take everything in it as reliable canon unless/until proven otherwise. As far as I know, there are a handfull of relatively minor errors, for which dismissing the whole thing is a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


LOL NAOKO IS TEH SOEL IN UNIT 00.

Considering that just about everything in the book that is correct can be found in other materials, it's essentially worthless, imo.
Umm, are you sure you're not confusing the RCB with therossman's 'Gendo Ikari's FAQ'?

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Postby henna » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:18 am

I think it's more plausible that the Contact Experiments were classified as 'failures' as a likely measure to keep anyone prying from learning too much more about the already grisly nature of the Evangelion Units.

(Random side note: I'm listening to 'A Moment When Tension Breaks', and it's on beat with the shrinking and growing of the eyes of the :money: emote.)

However, both could be said to be failures, depending on the angle you look at them from (other than as a coverup). In the case of Ikari Yui, the test may have been an attempt at synchronization and the Eva, lacking a soul, may have taken the one closest at hand, Yui's.

Kyoko's could be said to be a failure for a different reason, as her soul/psyche was split in two, giving rise to the living remains being in a state of psychosis. On this occasion it is possible to argue that the Eva only took what it 'needed', leaving the rest behind.

It is most probable that the soul within Unit 0 is that of Rei\Lillith, as there are no individuals living that would have such an attatchment to Rei, aside from the unconscious extension of her knowing self.
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Postby Shin-seiki » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:35 am

Great Genius Shinji-Sama wrote:Please forgive my fanwankery here, but many fanfics have 00's soul being Nakoko(ritsuko's mom)'s soul; which is what they use for the reason Rei's activation test going craz and the incident with Shinji in Unit 00 in Oral Stage.
You could stand to read up on the topic (in this and other relevant threads, as well as the evawiki article). For example:
previously, in this very thread, Shin-seiki wrote:
evilhead008 wrote:Naoko HATES Rei.

The End.
This is just one of many reasons to reject the odious 'Naoko in Zerogouki' theory: it flies in face of everything we are told about how the pilot/Eva pairing works:
#26' wrote:Asuka (thinking):
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I understand now... The meaning of the AT Field.
Always protecting me! Always watching over me!
(speaking) Always... always together!
Mama!
The (maternal) soul in the Eva exerts the AT Field to protect the child/pilot; how can anyone think this could possibly work with Naoko and Rei?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:44 am

henna wrote:I think it's more plausible that the Contact Experiments were classified as 'failures' as a likely measure to keep anyone prying from learning too much more about the already grisly nature of the Evangelion Units.

Check out the context of the statement.

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Postby NemZ » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:15 pm

Are you suggesting that the point of the contact experiments was an attempt to copy the subject's souls onto the eva rather than just to 'borrow' them for a while? Thats rather interesting.

I still think it's more likely that the dummy plug was developed to prevent that sort of thing and enable evas to be used interchangeably without regard to the annoying scruples of teenage pilots, though.
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Postby henna » Sun Aug 16, 2009 12:31 pm

You're right Reichu, it does seem that the failures were indeed attempts at merely copying the soul. That would possibly suggest that Yui and Kyoko attempted different types of experiment to achieve the same ends.
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Postby poiuy » Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:50 pm

Revisiting the series after what, maybe 6-7 years having not seen it...

A theory popped into my head though, what if the soul in Unit 00 is Yui's in some way or form. Not the full proper soul, but what if it were a copy, or portion.

The fact Gendo spent much of the series hoping to bring back Yui leads me to believe he didn't expect she would have been lost to the contact experiment, and I'm simply assuming Unit 01s CE would have come sometime after Unit 00's.

We know the technology was in place to copy a soul, the construction of the MAGI began before the contact experiments and that we can only assume the planning for the MAGI included the use of a copied (thrice copied in fact) soul, it's not exactly the sort of detail you decide to add later.

So I have to assume the CE experiment for Unit00 wouldn't have absorbed the person as in Unit01 or Gendo would not have allowed Yui to do this.

Ok, some of the details.

In Episode 14 they do the compatibility experiments, theoretically to test the possibility of the Dummy-Plug system. A test of this sort only would require Ayanami to sync with Unit01, not for Ikari to sync with Unit00. There would have had to have been a reason for testing Ikari (Asuka was already playing the part of control in this experiment). There would have had to have been a reason to assume Ikari would successfully sync with Unit00, perhaps if it had a portion or copy of his mother's soul. If Unit00 had Ayanami-1's soul there is no reason to believe it would have accepted Ikari over Asuka or any other person.

The first Unit00 berserker incident rejected Rei and then attacked Gendo. If Yui were in some way in Unit00 it could have had animosity or jealousy over Gendo's apparent replacement of Yui with a clone, or other reason (which could also be what manifested Gendo's destruction to Yui in Unit01 during Instrumentality).

The compatibility experiment importantly DID NOT reject Shinji through forced ejection as in the previous one. The Eva was still being protective of him in this way. The attack could have been viewed against Rei for being her replacement (just as it had attacked her in the previous attempt through ejection) or Ritsuko for the various reasons animosity could have existed between Yuki-Naoko, or the Yui in Unit00-Ritsuko (depending on how aware Evas actually are).

They could have assumed the same attempt at copying Yui's soul to Unit 01 would go as it had with Unit 00, but that being created different ways the outcome ended up drastically different. The Rei images could also be viewed in Unit00 as being an imperfect copyed "cloned" soul just as Rei is an imperfect physical clone of Yui.

I had more, but in the 30 minutes of typing this, a lot of it has slipped my mind, I'll post again if I rethink it.[/i]
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Postby Great Genius Shinji-Sama » Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:14 pm

This is fanfic anf fanwankery, but Ive read it many places that it seems many people seem to think it is Naoko in Unit 00. Though I personally think they think that JUST because it tries to attack Gendo and Ritsuko (I think :think: ) twice, and it goes crazy when Shinji is attempting to cross-sync with it, and it may just be me, but I kinda got the impression that Naoko never really liked Shinji much when I watched the flashback episode. Probably becuase he was the child Gendo had with YUI, and what she told Ritsuko about being a mother. :shrug: What do you think?
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