EVA-00's Soul

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Postby Ornette » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:30 pm

Zugzwang wrote:This is taking place during the interchangeability tests, where Rei is in Eva-01 and Shinji is in Eva-00 - during episode #14.

Shinji sees Rei while in Eva-00 - using your logic this means that one of the Rei's souls is in Eva-00, fair enough.

Now apply that logic to what Rei sees while in Eva-01 just before, Rei sees herself, Shinji, Misato, Ritsuko, Toji, Kensuke, Asuka, and Gendo, amongst all kinds of other imagery - does that mean all those folk's souls are in Eva-01? No.

However, unlike what Rei was seeing (or daydreaming) while inside Eva-01, Shinji had his mind invaded by the Eva.
ep14 wrote:Shinji (MONO):
What is this?
Something's trying to get directly into my brain.
Ayanami?
Rei Ayanami?
This impression is Rei Ayanami, isn't it?
Ayanami?
Isn't it her?

ep14 wrote:IBUKI:
Mental contamination is taking place.

RITSUKO:
Impossible! That can't happen at this plug depth.

IBUKI (OFF):
It's not from the plug.
The intrusion's coming from the Eva.


Therefore, what Rei was seeing (daydreaming) while inside Eva-01 cannot be compared to what Shinji sees.

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Postby Semisubtle » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:00 pm

What about the first time EVA 00 goes berserk, then? Rei herself was piloting, so why'd she freak out like that?

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Postby Ornette » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:08 pm

Semisubtle wrote:What about the first time EVA 00 goes berserk, then? Rei herself was piloting, so why'd she freak out like that?

You mean why Eva-00 freaked out?

ep05 wrote:Misato (OFF):
So, what caused the accident during the last experiment?

RITSUKO (OFF):
We still don't know.
However, we believe that mental instability on the part of the pilot
was a primary cause.

Misato (OFF):
Mental instability? In Rei?

RITSUKO (OFF):
Yes, her mind became much more disturbed than we had anticipated.

Misato (OFF):
So, what happened?

RITSUKO (OFF):
I don't know.
But could it be...

Misato (OFF):
Did something occur to you?

RITSUKO (OFF):
No, that can't be it.

Clearly, the mental stability is just an excuse because they really don't know why. The only hint we get is Ritsuko's last 2 lines.

Whatever reason it was, it's probably a different reason than the second time Eva-00 went berserk. The second time, it was clear what was going on, the first time, Ritsuko doesn't know. If she did know this would happen, why would they put Shinji in Eva-00 in the first place?

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Postby Zuggy » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:23 pm

Ornette wrote:However, unlike what Rei was seeing (or daydreaming) while inside Eva-01, Shinji had his mind invaded by the Eva.

Nice point, while Shinji's mind is invaded to the extent that mental contamination occurs both pilots do share similar experiences while in the plug. Both can smell each other. Both are making contact with the Eva (depending if you interpret Rei's line "I feel a presence that is not my own" as her referring to Yui) - there's no reason to think that Rei is merely daydreaming while synched with Eva-01, so I don't see where you're coming from with that bit.

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Postby Ornette » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:58 pm

Zugzwang wrote:Nice point, while Shinji's mind is invaded to the extent that mental contamination occurs both pilots do share similar experiences while in the plug. Both can smell each other. Both are making contact with the Eva (depending if you interpret Rei's line "I feel a presence that is not my own" as her referring to Yui) - there's no reason to think that Rei is merely daydreaming while synched with Eva-01, so I don't see where you're coming from with that bit.

Rei says "It smells like Ikari" after synchronization, however, Shinji says it smells like Ayanami BEFORE activation occurs. This tells me that this smell doesn't have anything to do with the Eva itself, but, like many have said, some kind of residual scent left from the previous pilot.

Maybe daydreaming isn't the right word, but what I meant by that is she's thinking about it, and it has nothing to do with the Eva, with the possible exception of the "Who are you".

She is saying all of this stuff while she's in the entry plug:
ep14 wrote:Rei'S VOICE:
Mountain...
Heavy mountains.
Things that change over time.
Sky...
Blue sky.
What your eyes can't see.
What your eyes can see.
Sun...
A unique object.
Water...
Something comforting.
Commander Ikari?
Flowers...
So many of the same.
And so many unneeded.
Sky...
Red, red sky.
The color red.
I hate the color red.
Water flowing.
Blood...
The smell of blood.
A woman who never bleeds.
Man made from red soil.
Man made from man and woman.
City... A human creation.
Eva... A human creation.
What is a human? A creation of God?
Is man a human creation?
The things I possess are life and soul.
I am a vessel for a soul.
Entry plug, the throne for a soul.
Who is this? This is me.
Who am I? What am I? What am I?
What am I? What am I?
I am myself.
This object is me.
The form that shapes me.
This is the me that can be seen,
yet I feel as though I am not myself.
Very strange.
I feel as if my body is melting.
I can no longer see myself.
My shape is fading.
I feel the presence of someone who is not me.
Is someone there, beyond this?
Ikari?
I know this person. Major Katsuragi.
Doctor Akagi.
Everyone.
Classmates. Note: this is where Toji and Kensuke and the others show up
The pilot of Unit 02.
Commander Ikari?
Who are you?
Who are you?
Who are you?

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Postby Shiro » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:56 pm

What about in Episode 23('?)

Rei wrote: Is this me? The me inside the Eva?


I'd say that's pretty clear in saying Rei's soul inside 00. It doesn't make sense except when in that context.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:43 pm

Ornette wrote:Maybe daydreaming isn't the right word, but what I meant by that is she's thinking about it, and it has nothing to do with the Eva, with the possible exception of the "Who are you".
While I agree that Rei I's soul is in Zero, I'm not so sure Rei's "daydream" has nothing to do with Sho. Most all of Shinji's "mind wanderings" are also while inside Sho. I've wondered before if Yui was trying to help/guide/aid Shinji, and I don't know if it's a stretch to assume she would be doing the same with Rei.

Shiro wrote:I'd say that's pretty clear in saying Rei's soul inside 00. It doesn't make sense except when in that context.
IIRC from the debate me and Zug had on ANF, he seems to believe that an imprint of the pilots are left behind in the Evas - similar to how in Instrumentality every character exists in everyone else's mind, so do these people exist in the minds of the Evas. So he thinks Rei seeing herself is merely her seeing the "her" that exists in the mind of Zero.
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Postby Shiro » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:37 pm

But there's really no other evidence for that. Being literally mixed with someone else's mind is different than being synchronized with it. Saying that they leave behind an imprint, and that's what Rei feels in that instance isn't backed by anything. Or else, why hadn't Shinji or Asuka ever commented on it? That's fanwank that's even more extreme then "Rei 1 is in Zerogouki."
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:57 pm

Shiro wrote:That's fanwank that's even more extreme then "Rei 1 is in Zerogouki."
Take it up with Zuggy. :)
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Postby evilhead008 » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:13 pm

Naoko HATES Rei.

The End.

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Postby Ornette » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:17 pm

evilhead008 wrote:Naoko HATES Rei.

The End.

Then how was Rei ever able to synch of her?

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Postby THE Hal E. Burton 9000 » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:30 pm

ZOMG!!!!! IT'S YET ANOTHER PLOT HOLE
- TEH Fabulous Hal E. Burton 9000

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:56 pm

Shinji:
Rei Ayanami... So, that feeling I got really was her.
Like Mother...
Rei Ayanami and Mother...
What are you doing, Father?
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Postby Shin-seiki » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:11 am

evilhead008 wrote:Naoko HATES Rei.

The End.
This is just one of many reasons reject the odious 'Naoko in Zerogouki' theory: it flies in face of everything we are told about how the pilot/Eva pairing works:
#26' wrote:Asuka (thinking):
Mama... Mama!
I understand now... The meaning of the AT Field.
Always protecting me! Always watching over me!
(speaking) Always... always together!
Mama!
The (maternal) soul in the Eva exerts the AT Field to protect the child/pilot; how can anyone think this could possibly work with Naoko and Rei?

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Postby Zuggy » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:27 am

Shiro wrote:What about in Episode 23('?)

Rei wrote: Is this me? The me inside the Eva?

I'd say that's pretty clear in saying Rei's soul inside 00. It doesn't make sense except when in that context.

No, Rei identifies that as an Angel, which would be obvious if you had actually quoted the rest of what she says -

[code:1]Rei:
Who's there?
Me?
The me inside the Eva.
No, I can sense that there's someone other than me.
Who are you?
An Angel? The person that we call an Angel?[/code:1]
Shin-seiki wrote:This is just one of many reasons reject the odious 'Naoko in Zerogouki' theory: it flies in face of everything we are told about how the pilot/Eva pairing works:
#26' wrote:Asuka (thinking):
Mama... Mama!
I understand now... The meaning of the AT Field.
Always protecting me! Always watching over me!
(speaking) Always... always together!
Mama!

Kaworu being able to set his synch ratio with Eva-02 to whatever he wants, while the resident soul inside Eva 02 isn't his mother's, and also being able to control the Eva while not even in the entry plug - also flies in the face of what you just said there about how synchronisation works - seeing as Rei is composed of the same stuff as the Angels and houses the soul of Lilith, in the same way Kaworu is composed of the same stuff as the Angels, and houses the soul of Adam - they are both exempt from the usual rules of synchronisation.

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Postby Shiro » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:02 am

No, but even if you do quote the rest, it still works.

The me inside the Eva. She wouldn't think that the Angel was herself. She knows that there's another her inside the Eva, and she THINKS that's what she's feeling at first. Then she realizes it's something else.


Also: Kaworu can control the Evas because, and ONLY because, he's Adam. The Evas, sans Shogouki, are made of Adam. And Adam can control his "bunshins."
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Postby Zuggy » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:50 am

Shiro wrote:She wouldn't think that the Angel was herself.

Armesial is fused with her at this point remember.

Going along with your train of thought though what does the "me inside the Eva" actually mean? Seeing as the pilots, Shinji especially, encounter themselves and others while in the entry plug. Also, the way it's worded is similar to the "the me in the mind's of others" stuff.

Shiro wrote:Kaworu can control the Evas because, and ONLY because, he's Adam. The Evas, sans Shogouki, are made of Adam.

Uh huh, why else do would you think Eva-01 could be activated with just a digital copy of Rei's though patterns and not an actual pilot? According to Gendo the Eva doesn't actually need a mother's soul with their son or daughter as a pilot to synchronise, it simply needs a set of thought patterns that are compatible with the resident soul/mind.

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Postby Ornette » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:25 pm

Zugzwang wrote:
Shiro wrote:Kaworu can control the Evas because, and ONLY because, he's Adam. The Evas, sans Shogouki, are made of Adam.

Uh huh, why else do would you think Eva-01 could be activated with just a digital copy of Rei's though patterns and not an actual pilot? According to Gendo the Eva doesn't actually need a mother's soul with their son or daughter as a pilot to synchronise, it simply needs a set of thought patterns that are compatible with the resident soul/mind.

These are 2 different things happening. Kaworu says that Eva-02's soul has shut itself off, giving some reason to why Asuka wasn't able to synch with it anymore, and that was why Kaworu can control it. The Dummy plug is used to trick the resident soul into believing there's a pilot. The second attempt to trick Yui failed. There is still a pilot (trick) soul interaction happening with Eva-01's case, but no soul in the equation with Kaworu.
ep17 wrote:RITSUKO:
This is the dummy plug prototype.
Rei's personal data has been loaded into it,
but it's not really possible to digitize a human mind and soul.
Ultimately, it's a fake, an imitation.
Just a machine that emulates a pilot's thinking process.

IKARI:
It'll transmit a signal pattern to the Eva.
As long as the Eva believes there's a pilot and synchronizes, that's enough.
Load the data into Unit 01 and Unit 02.

ep24 wrote:KAWORU:
The Eva are made of the same body as I am.
Because I am born from Adam as well.
I could merge with them, if only they didn't have souls.
Unit 02's soul has shut itself away for now.


Oh also:
Going along with your train of thought though what does the "me inside the Eva" actually mean? Seeing as the pilots, Shinji especially, encounter themselves and others while in the entry plug. Also, the way it's worded is similar to the "the me in the mind's of others" stuff.

The clear difference between Rei's encounter and everyone else's encounter with themselves, is the others never question "Wait, is that me over there?", which indicate to me either they're not conciously (or lucidly) aware of their situation, as if dreaming or seeing images, or they weren't seeing them at all and the images were put there to aid the narrative.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:46 pm

I suppose the idea that Yui considers Rei a daughter of sorts never occured to you Zuggy.
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Postby The Imperialist » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:53 pm

Could it be possible that there is such thing as an ‘artificial soul’?
I feel old


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