EVA-00's Soul

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Postby beholderseye » Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:28 pm

Numerous Rei clones were then prepared in Terminal Dogma so that when one Rei dies she can be replaced by another, and all of these seemed to at the very least be alive.. no less than the "active" Rei always was. They went through I believe three Rei's. The first was killed by Dr. Naoko Akagi, and the second died in battle against the 16th Angel. I remember in the battle with the 16th angel that the Rei was replaced rather quickly and made it seem like she was being drawn up quite fast. I am of the oppinion that Rei is a container for souls, but there are no souls inside her. In a sense she's 'empty.' This actually fits in very well with EoE.

But there is certianly no proof that the "Soul" is switched from one Rei to another.
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Postby Dave » Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:30 pm

If Rei did not have a soul she would not be able to generate an AT Field and thus maintain the shape of her body. She would fall apart and/or turn into orange goo. Furthermore, Kaworu states that Rei is just like him. Kaworu's body contains Adam's soul, the soul of an angel. This seems to imply that Rei's body contains the soul of an angel as well. I believe this to be Lilith.
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Postby beholderseye » Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:35 pm

"Ritsuko:This is the prototype dummy plug.
Rei's personality was transfered,
although the human mind and spirit are not digitalizable.
This is nothing but a fake, a copy
which imitates the pilot's thinking. It's nothing but a machine."

I think this demonstrates what I'm saying. I dont think they found it even possible to transfer a soul, as the human mind and spirit are not digitalizable. It makes me think that the other Rei's were rather just vessels, empy beings... however, such an empty being seemed perfectly consistant with End of Evangelion, by returning to Lilith she was able to draw in the souls of humanity. I am a bit puzzled about the AT field, sure, but whatever it was caused by, I dont think it was caused by the original Rei's soul. Perhaps new souls.
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Postby Dave » Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:38 pm

And what is your responce to what Kaworu said? I don't think you believe Kaworu has no soul as well.
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Postby beholderseye » Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:45 pm

Give me the quote and I'll tell you what I think.

Its certainly obvious Kaoru does have a soul, then again... things may work a bit differently for angels, dont you think?
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Postby Dave » Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:51 pm

Rei is acsending an escalator, and encounters Kaworu.

Kaworu: You must be the first child, am I correct? You are Rei Ayanami, and you are the same as I am.
Kaworu: How interesting that both of us have ended up in the same form as the Lilin for life on this planet.
Rei: Identify yourself.

Flash to scene of Gendou's office.
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Postby Nephilim » Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:53 pm

I'm with you Dave !!!! :P

Everybody knows this facts:
- An AT field is generated by a soul.
- Rei has an AT field, so she has to have a soul.
- Kaworu said: "You're just like me...
We've both taken the lilim's form as our body to live on this planet."

- It's not possible to copy a soul or digitalize a soul, but to transfer a soul is possible, because it's obvious that Rei has Lilith's soul. EVERY BODY KNOWS THAT !!!!
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Postby Dave » Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:55 pm

Hey, just because everybody knows it does not mean that it is true. Don't be too mean to people with ideas that seem wrong Nephilim. :D
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Postby beholderseye » Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:01 pm

"You are the same as I am"

It has a few implications, none of which I would see make Kaoru not have a soul. He could be speaking physically, or maybe by this time Lilith had already laid claim to Rei.

I dont think that Rei had Liliths soul from the beggining. Rei, if my theory is correct, could just be a vessel for a soul where much later in the series was occupied by Lilith. I think Rei's AT field in the end was a bit more powerful than the AT field generated by Rei while she piloted an Eva.

It also makes you wonder if in the end, Rei being not in an eva... but still having an AT field.. well, I wonder if it was similar to Rei being the eva, and Lilith being the pilot. ;)
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Postby beholderseye » Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:04 pm

Also, I know that to have an AT field one must have a soul...

However, I dont think it was the original Rei's soul.

Maybe, as a revision to what I said beforehand, Lilith had inhabbited Rei ever since she became a soul-less Lilin. I wouldnt imagine there would be too many soul-less Lilin, but Rei would certainly be an easy way for Lilith to have influence.

I definately dont think it should be assumed that Rei 1's soul was moved to each of the other Rei's though, without the technology to digitalize a soul.
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Postby beholderseye » Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:06 pm

"Rei's personality was transfered,
although the human mind and spirit are not digitalizable. "

I think this refers to the fact that to transfer a soul, they'd need to digitalize it first. I dont think its possible to digitalize a soul, as they said, and therefor.. transfering it was impossible.

Hey, I'd stay.. but I'm going watch Eva platinum ;)
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Postby Phaze » Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:16 pm

This is why I'm going to once again, insist on my own theory (not to sound pompous) the idea that Rei can transfer her own soul into unit-00 makes perfect sense on all accounts, not to mention that Rei I and Rei II were in possession of the same soul at one point or another.
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Postby Olin of Xephon » Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:01 am

But if Rei's soul inhabits unit-00, what about the second time it went berserk? (blue unit-00)

The only person the Eva seemed to be attacking was Rei herself.
Why would Rei try to kill Rei with a eva Shinji is currently piloting?
To much of a stretch for me.
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Postby sadsadshinji » Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:33 am

i believe there was another topic on this...and the conclusion was that Rei can project her soul like kaworu so the lack of soul, or the taking over of the soul might have caused the beserk incidents

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Postby Reichu » Sun Aug 22, 2004 9:18 am

I've had tons of debates about EVA-00's soul and all of the related insanity in the past couple of years. As such, a lot of the arguments here sound very familiar, because I made them myself at some point! (Most of it actually occurred in a long, drawn-out debate with MDWigs at Anime Boards. A very interesting thread that covered a LOT of points, so it's rather upsetting that I have no idea what happened to it... It would be a great thing to link to here.) I was once a Naoko advocate myself, but if you look at NGE in whole, this theory JUST DOESN'T WORK. The only real option is Rei-001 -- the soul of Lilith, the mind of the human vessel she had been placed within. (Soul and mind are separate yet related concepts in NGE.)

To save myself some trouble, here is a thread at another forum that really helped to eliminate the doubt in my mind that Rei 1 is the soul of Zerogouki. (Scroll more than halfway down. The post is by Shin-seiki and it has tons of screencaps.) The evidence is there, right in the show itself.

I can't possibly cover all of the points brought up on this thread right now, but here are a couple of things:

1) The Eva's A.T. Field does not come from the pilot. The very reason Evas need souls to function is because the A.T. Field is so integral -- without one, an Eva is pretty worthless. If the pilot's own A.T. Field could be utilized and "amplified" by the Eva, why give Evas souls in the first place? Theoretically, GEHIRN could have developed soulless Evas that could be piloted directly via control of the nervous system (which is basically how the actual Evas are piloted, except that synchronization with the resident soul is first required). Yet this didn't happen. Evas need a resident soul to work.

2) The main problem people (including myself, at one point) have with the Rei-1-in-EVA-00 theory is "But Lilith's soul is in Rei-2; how can it be in two places at the same time?" One very important thing to realize about Lilith's soul is that CAN be in multiple places at the same time, and one needs to look no further than EoE for proof of this. Rei is literally in BILLIONS of places simultaneously, and there is also reason to think that she can transcend not only place, but time as well. (A very complicated issue if ever there was one.)

But that, actually, probably does not have much relevance to the EVA-00 matter. The answer may simply lie in the soul imprint theory, which was originally proposed by MDWigs (I believe), and I have been working on a revision of this with my friend Dr. Nick. Incidentally, no one will get to hear the whole thing until next year, as Dr. Nick's left for his 6-month mandatory military service in July. But he never said I couldn't mention the idea to others in the meantime.

The gist of the theory is that there is some component of the soul that CAN be technologically copied, enough to generate an A.T. Field -- but, of course, the copy is second-rate, and there are definitely psychological ramifications. (As a result, transferring a real, complete soul from one vessel to another is preferable.) According to the theory, this may actually have been GEHIRN's original intended method of making the Evas functional -- why sacrifice a human soul when you can just copy the part that you need? (Yui's incident may thusly have been viewed as a "freak accident" precisely because transferring her entire soul was not what GEHIRN intended. Yui's intentions are, of course, a whole 'nother matter.)

The first time (again, as per the theory) a "soul copy" was successful was with Rei 1 and EVA-00. Rei 1 kept her soul intact, and EVA-00 got a cheap copy (an "imprint"), which turned out the be enough for her to generate an A.T. Field and synchronize with her "donor" (and subsequent incarnations thereof). Of course, the imprint wasn't quite enough for psychological soundness of mind (see: Zero's temper tantrums).

The second time was in the Third Branch in Germany, with none other than Soryu Kyoko Zeppelin (Asuka's mama). Not intent on repeating Yui's incident, they may have desired to try an improved version of the soul imprint. Whatever the case, EVA-02 sucked Kyoko's soul out and KYOKO was the one left with the imprint, which is why her body remained but her mind was in increasingly bad shape after the Contact Experiment.

Another theory is that the Eva Series all contain soul imprints of Adam, which goes a long way towards explaining (A) why they are generally inferior to Evas like 01 and 02 and (B) why they are all ****ed-up mother-****ers. There's also the whole bit about them being controlled by Kaworu's dummy plug, but I don't think it's been satisfactorily demonstrated that there needs to be the same link between Eva's soul and controlling agent (in this case, the dummy plug) as there is with traditional piloting.

Food for thought, anyway. Pardon the length.

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Postby MDWigs » Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:47 pm

The AB thread Reichu mentioned can be found here:

http://www.animeboards.com/showthread.php?t=52521

You still have to reply to my last post Reichu!! ^_^

On the Eva-00 issue itself, I have been planning on writing a comprehensive logical proof on the issue for a while now. I started talking about it again on the Eva ML recently but then up and backpacked around Europe for a couple of months, which put a big dent in my plans to actually write anything conclusive (I am off to Edinburgh tomorrow to catch the last of the Fringe Festival if anyone is interesting, and then sometime mid-September I should be back posting as normal).

Anyway in this proof I aim to demonstrate that the issue of how exactly Rei's soul came to be in Eva-00 is secondary, and that, if starting from the simple assumption that it is indeed Rei's soul in there, a great number of Eva "mysteries" can be explained. Basically I intend to show that the Rei explanation fits the facts of the series better than any other. The issue of then demonstrating how exactly Rei can be in Eva-00 becomes a less important issue (but no less fun to discuss).

All that will have to wait till September though. I got back from Amecon (UK's largest anime festival) this afternoon and I am totally beat. UK con's consist of much drinking and partying, with two bars right outside the two main viewing rooms things got quite interesting. I haven't slept since Saturday night, so now I am going to sleep!
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Postby Reichu » Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:24 pm

MDWigs wrote:The AB thread Reichu mentioned can be found here:

http://www.animeboards.com/showthread.php?t=52521

You still have to reply to my last post Reichu!! ^_^


Wow, I'm glad it DOES still exist, after all! Thanks for the link, Wigs. Replying to your last post would be a little problematic, since my thinking has come a LONNNNG way since we had that discussion. But it might be a fun thing to resurrect... whenever you have the time to reply, that is!

As I mentioned before, Dr. Nick has some very interesting ideas regarding the technicalities of soul "imprinting" and soul transfers that we had been discussing via e-mail, many of which are based on your original premises. It would probably be worthwhile to have a nice, BIG discussion about this issue on ANF when Dr. Nick returns from the service next year... Methinks there will be plenty of other stuff to keep you busy in the meantime. ;)

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Postby thewayneiac » Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:15 pm

Tobias wrote:
but I'm still leaning toward the Naoko side. Why? Because the other souls are mothers, just like Akagi was.


but Shinji and Asuka both had their own mothers in their EVAs; Naoko may be a mother, but she isn't Rei's mother. It would only make sense to put Naoko into Unit 00 if Ritsuko were going to be its pilot, and she's the wrong age.

I think that the idea probably is that as Rei has no mother, an alternate version of herself is the closest they are going to get.
Phaze wrote:
This is why I'm going to once again, insist on my own theory (not to sound pompous) the idea that Rei can transfer her own soul into unit-00 makes perfect sense on all accounts, not to mention that Rei I and Rei II were in possession of the same soul at one point or another.


When Shinji sees Rei 01's soul in Unit 00, is Rei 02 somehow projecting it even though she isn't in the pilot's seat at that time?

Quiddity wrote:
Naoko? Well she strangled Rei then immediately killed herself. Without official evidence, only thoughts because she hated Rei as Unit 00 seemed to, I wouldn't put too much faith in it, as of now.


Exactly. Besides, they would have know that Naoko killed Rei I; why use a soul that hates its pilot?

Over at the Anime Nation forum there's a fellow named Shin-Seiki who always points out that Anno doesn't try to trick us; he just shows what's happening, and let's us decide what it all means. If Anno shows us Rei I's soul in Unit 00, it means that Rei I is Unit 00's indwelling soul.
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Postby aranami » Thu Aug 26, 2004 10:39 pm

thewayneiac wrote:Tobias wrote:
but I'm still leaning toward the Naoko side. Why? Because the other souls are mothers, just like Akagi was.


but Shinji and Asuka both had their own mothers in their EVAs; Naoko may be a mother, but she isn't Rei's mother. It would only make sense to put Naoko into Unit 00 if Ritsuko were going to be its pilot, and she's the wrong age.

I think that the idea probably is that as Rei has no mother, an alternate version of herself is the closest they are going to get.


In that case it's not so much their mother, but there closest relation, someone who would look after the pilots. In Shinji's and Asuka's case yes it was their mothers. For Rei the closest they could get was Rei I.
on a side note(then again mabye it wasn't the souls who where picked but the pilots were picked because of their relation to the soul that the Eva traped)

This leaves Unit-00 with an incomplete soul. It is simalar to the episode in Inu-Yasha when the demon resurrected Kykio. At the end of the episode both Kykio and Kagome had pieces of the same soul. If Unit-00 had Rei I's soul then part of it would of had to be put into the Eva and part into Rei II(This also explains why Rei I and Rei II's personality's were so different and why II and III where more identical). The activation test was simalar to someone with a split personality fighting with themselves. I don't think that the Eva knew what it was attaking. It was trying to get the rest of Rei's soul, and Rei was fighting back.
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Postby Zuggy » Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:55 pm

Reichu wrote:If we're going to rehash the Eva-00 debate, please bump one of the older threads.

Why are there so few topics on this?! There's this thread but it was locked.

Following on from this thread then:

Zugzwang wrote:
evilhead008 wrote:We know the souls inside each Eva...

00: Rei I

We don't know that Rei I's soul is in Eva-00.

Shin-seiki wrote:
Zugzwang wrote:We don't know that Rei I's soul is in Eva-00.

Actually, we do know that; you seem, amazingly enough, to have found some way to discount all the evidence that points that way ('Bug-eyed, floating head Rei' being identified as Rei 1 in #25 is particularly definitive), but most all of the rest of us understand that the issue is basically resolved, and carry on from there...

BobBQ wrote:
Shin-seiki wrote:('Bug-eyed, floating head Rei' being identified as Rei 1 in #25 is particularly definitive)

Stock footage much?

Not that the hive mind cares what I think.

Zugzwang wrote:
Shin-seiki wrote:Actually, we do know that; you seem, amazingly enough, to have found some way to discount all the evidence that points that way ('Bug-eyed, floating head Rei' being identified as Rei 1 in #25 is particularly definitive), but most all of the rest of us understand that the issue is basically resolved, and carry on from there...

This is taking place during the interchangeability tests, where Rei is in Eva-01 and Shinji is in Eva-00 - during episode #14.

Shinji sees Rei while in Eva-00 - using your logic this means that one of the Rei's souls is in Eva-00, fair enough.

Now apply that logic to what Rei sees while in Eva-01 just before, Rei sees herself, Shinji, Misato, Ritsuko, Toji, Kensuke, Asuka, and Gendo, amongst all kinds of other imagery - does that mean all those folk's souls are in Eva-01? No.

As I've said before, both pilots are merely coming into contact with the impressions inside each Eva, NOT the resident souls - also, the imagery of "bug-eyed Rei" doesn't match up with when Shinji or Asuka come into actual contact with the souls in their Evas at all.


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