Why did the Angels decide to work alone?

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon May 18, 2009 4:40 pm

Baz wrote:Also, if Angels don't reincarnate, then where do their souls go when they die? Back to Adam until she's ready to release them again?


Though it's not canon, Eva2 shows Kaworu (either naked or clothed, I forget which Instrumentality version has which) surrounded by 16 tiny red dots (souls) in 2 out of the 5 or so Instrumentality endings.
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Postby Baz » Mon May 18, 2009 4:54 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:Though it's not canon, Eva2 shows Kaworu (either naked or clothed, I forget which Instrumentality version has which) surrounded by 16 tiny red dots (souls) in 2 out of the 5 or so Instrumentality endings.

I like that. That's a better ending for the angels than EOE where it seems that Kaworu has abandoned them completely so that he can join Shinji in instrumentality. :(
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Postby Reichu » Mon May 18, 2009 5:57 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:Though it's not canon, Eva2 shows Kaworu (either naked or clothed, I forget which Instrumentality version has which) surrounded by 16 tiny red dots (souls) in 2 out of the 5 or so Instrumentality endings.

Sixteen? Are you sure? Counting Israfel as two, there should be fourteen between Sachiel and Armisael.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon May 18, 2009 7:47 pm

I'll try to screencap that sometime and post it in an appropriate thread, but it was around that number range, at least.
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Postby shpared » Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:24 am

check out Sandalphon before it transforms.

And when Sandalphon transforms, it screams like a baby on acid.

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Postby VoidEater » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:55 pm

CyberXIII wrote:Doesn't Israfel functionally count as two?


I don't think so, but may be wrong. This might instead be an example of souls being splintered (although, them being Angel-ly and all, they didn't go nuts or become withdrawn like our potential human soul-splits).

Oedipusfoot wrote:I wonder what the significance is behind Angels being able to choose their own form, but the "humans," Lilith's children, can't.


Maybe only that they have really strong ATFs. Though the evolution theory would say they have imagined themselves into the shape they think will allow them to succeed on this planet. Humans, lacking that capability, must (though overcoming their "defects") yearn, plan, work for success.
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Postby I Accidentally Dracula » Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:06 am

The short answer: Due to the Monster of the Day episodic nature that the genre basically forces it to take.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:40 pm

I don't think so, but may be wrong. This might instead be an example of souls being splintered (although, them being Angel-ly and all, they didn't go nuts or become withdrawn like our potential human soul-splits).


Israfel has two souls. Notice it has two Cores, which are the containers of the Angelic soul?

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Postby Reichu » Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:57 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:Israfel has two souls. Notice it has two Cores, which are the containers of the Angelic soul?

It only has two cores in the mangoo. In the anime, we see it with two cores briefly because Israfel was caught mid-fusion.

The said, I'm in the "two souls that are a little too close" boat. Though I suppose one could take the Yin-Yang symbolism either way, two individuals coming together in insta-complementation and separating at will seems like the path of least resistence.
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Postby CyberXIII » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:47 pm

Well, it doesn't explain how they were working in such unity together. Israfel also counts as a single Angel.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:45 pm


Well, it doesn't explain how they were working in such unity together. Israfel also counts as a single Angel.


Shinji and Asuka retaliated with perfect synchronicity against Israfel, too. Does that mean they're soul splits of each other, too?

And the numbering of Angels is completely batshit arbitrary. I wouldn't use it as evidence for Israfel's soul count one way or another.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:53 pm

CyberXIII wrote:Well, it doesn't explain how they were working in such unity together.

"Insta-Instrumentality" when fused, and ATF-telepathy when apart. See, easy.

For further inquiry, here's a whole thread on Israfel.
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Postby SaltyJoe » Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:29 am

Baz wrote:One really out-there possibility is that there is only one angel soul that is continually reincarnating and learning as it goes along. There is some evidence for this, e.g. Armisael's angel tree means that Armi knew about previous angels. Also, if Angels don't reincarnate, then where do their souls go when they die? Back to Adam until she's ready to release them again?


Woah, that is wicked. I always assumed that the forming of the Angel Tower was more a matter of biology than soul magic. Unit-00 was a replica of Adam, the progenitor of all Angels, possibly containing within itself the genetic blueprints for all the other Angels. So i think that when Armi fused with her, the genetic material in the Adam clone was somehow activated, igniting a process that lead to mass Angel genesis.

As to why the Angels worked alone: i think there was actually a sort of evolutionary race going on between the Angels. I see evidence to that in the fact that all Angels (well, the mindfuck Angels are debatable) percieved the Evangelions, technically other Angels, as hostiles, trying to prevent them for reaching their goals.


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Postby VoidEater » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:05 am

Baz wrote:One really out-there possibility is that there is only one angel soul that is continually reincarnating and learning as it goes along.


Interesting, but why? Why one, and not none, and where did the one come from? Why one, and not many? I see how the sequential appearance might suggest it, but is there any other evidence that might support that, other comments made by characters that fall into that line of logic? Perhaps the Angel Tower is supportive of that, although there are problems there (lots of stuff in there doesn't seem to be from any previous Angels we've seen).

Baz wrote:Armisael's angel tree means that Armi knew about previous angels.


Actually, it only means that Armi could reproduce some of the forms of the previous Angels, and a bunch of other stuff.

Baz wrote:where do their souls go when they die? Back to Adam until she's ready to release them again?


They go where any other souls go, I presume. I don't recall any suggestion that their souls act in a specialized manner after death. Have I missed something?

SaltyJoe wrote:I always assumed that the forming of the Angel Tower was more a matter of biology than soul magic.


I agree with this (pending other evidence). Looking at the Angels-as-evolution theory, each Angels "biology" can support the forms we see from any, plus other things. Since the ATF determines the form, and the form is determined by self-determination, the potential for each form should be in each Angel, I think.

SaltyJoe wrote:Unit-00 was a replica of Adam


Sauce, please. 00 is apparently very much like 02, etc., while Adam is, apparently, another order of entity, a Seed of Life. "Cloning", "partial cloning", whatever, didn't seem to recreate a replica of Adam, just as 02 did not replicate (per se) Lilith. There seems to be a gap between Eva and Seed of Life, no?

SaltyJoe wrote:containing within itself the genetic blueprints for all the other Angels. So i think that when Armi fused with her, the genetic material in the Adam clone was somehow activated, igniting a process that lead to mass Angel genesis.


Maybe...but isn't more likely the genetic material in Armi went wild as she lost control of her form? And might Armi be special, since (somehow) Rits, I believe, explains that this Angel can take on different forms (wonder how she did that)?

Ritsuko: But that shape is, I am sure, not a fixed shape.

SaltyJoe wrote:i think there was actually a sort of evolutionary race going on between the Angels.


I think so, too, but bigger brains than mine don't agree...

SaltyJoe wrote:all Angels (well, the mindfuck Angels are debatable) percieved the Evangelions, technically other Angels, as hostiles, trying to prevent them for reaching their goals.


Didn't the Angels react to the Evas in that way more or less only when the Evas actually were in the way?

And, apparently everyone is an Angel (depending on the definition).
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Postby SaltyJoe » Fri Jul 10, 2009 12:07 pm

I finally found the piece of dialogue that refers to Unit-00 as an "Adam created by man":

Episode 21 wrote:Fuyutsuki: This is...
Is this that giant?

Akagi: We of Gehirn call that object Adam.
This is different.

#Gehirn - the German word for "brain."

Fuyutsuki: Then,

Akagi: Yes, the Adam created by humans, Eva.

Fuyutsuki: Eva?

Gendou: Our project to revive Adam, referred to as Project E.
This is the model of the project, called Eva Unit Zero.

Fuyutsuki: The prototype of a God?


So, while she probably wasn't a perfect carbon copy, Unit-00 (and by extension, most of the other Evangelions) shared much of their genetic material with Adam. Thus they were quite Angel-like.

About the Angels only attacking Evas when they were in the way: take the battle against Sachiel, for example. He only strikes at the military aircraft when they hit him, and is generally avoidant of them/treats them like a nuisance. Yet when Unit-01 shows up, he immediately attacks her, visibly percieving her as a threat, even though she was prone and on the ground. Now this might be explained by the fact that Shogouki was the only thing comparable in size and power to Sachiel, thus presenting a more clearly defined source of danger, but also, it is possible that Sachi viewed Sho as a natural competitor (though there is the question of that whole "part Lilith" thing).


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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:48 pm

One really out-there possibility is that there is only one angel soul that is continually reincarnating and learning as it goes along. There is some evidence for this, e.g. Armisael's angel tree means that Armi knew about previous angels. Also, if Angels don't reincarnate, then where do their souls go when they die? Back to Adam until she's ready to release them again?


That kinda defeats the point of having multiple "children." Also, as for where Angel souls go, probably the same place human souls do: either disintegrate with the body, or released to go to that higher dimension place Reichu hypothesized with OPwin.

Woah, that is wicked. I always assumed that the forming of the Angel Tower was more a matter of biology than soul magic. Unit-00 was a replica of Adam, the progenitor of all Angels, possibly containing within itself the genetic blueprints for all the other Angels. So i think that when Armi fused with her, the genetic material in the Adam clone was somehow activated, igniting a process that lead to mass Angel genesis.


The dominant theory is that Armisael, in her loneliness, was trying to use Unit 00 to resurrect all of her "siblings", meaning that she might have gathered their souls or something.

As to why the Angels worked alone: i think there was actually a sort of evolutionary race going on between the Angels. I see evidence to that in the fact that all Angels (well, the mindfuck Angels are debatable) percieved the Evangelions, technically other Angels, as hostiles, trying to prevent them for reaching their goals.


Why? There's no "Only One" Highlander rule, it's just Humans VS Angels. However, working together might be our Fruit of Knowledge, as the Angels, for all their power and intelligence, don't grasp how to communicate like we do and experience loneliness. Perhaps the idea of working together never occurred to them.

Sauce, please. 00 is apparently very much like 02, etc., while Adam is, apparently, another order of entity, a Seed of Life. "Cloning", "partial cloning", whatever, didn't seem to recreate a replica of Adam, just as 02 did not replicate (per se) Lilith. There seems to be a gap between Eva and Seed of Life, no?


Voideater, you're just playing semantics. He was just referring to how 00 is based on Adam's DNA and stuff. The Evangelions are replicas of Adam, S2 Engine or not.

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Postby VoidEater » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:21 pm

^Am not! Am not! ;-)
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