Why did the Angels decide to work alone?

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Why did the Angels decide to work alone?

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Postby CyberXIII » Wed May 13, 2009 8:05 pm

Topic. I know they were trying to follow the Monster of the Week thing, but was there more to it, possibly?
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Postby IrkenEvangelion » Wed May 13, 2009 8:10 pm

Because humans weren't supposed to have the power of Angels and it should've only took one.
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Postby Melchior » Wed May 13, 2009 8:12 pm

They were each a separate test that man kind had to overcome. They were technically commissioned to try to attack at every single aspect. Some stayed in orbit, some attacked from within the base, some attacked the psyche, some fought in different elements (i.e. sandy and gaggy).

They were each a milestone, and yes, it would've been difficult to integrate more than one in 30 minutes.

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Postby CyberXIII » Wed May 13, 2009 8:47 pm

Melchior wrote:
They were each a milestone, and yes, it would've been difficult to integrate more than one in 30 minutes.


Doesn't Israfel functionally count as two?
"Crapsack worlds and anti heroes have their place. Sometimes, they are very necessary. But an endless diet of dreary cyberpunk and dark fantasy won't do us any more favors than an endless feast of glurge. I'd argue that the cynical nature of these really hurt our ability to hope and work for better. It gets us to accept the hopelessness and jaded outlook of things as 'That's the way it is. I can't change it,' and stops us from fighting when we NEED to fight."

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Postby felineki » Wed May 13, 2009 11:16 pm

Considering that we know so little of the details of their background, it's possible they didn't even know of each others' existence. A sort of "separated at birth" scenario.

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Postby Legendary » Thu May 14, 2009 12:52 am

Option 1: Angels are self-sufficient creatures socially as well as physically, so it never occured to them to work together. Maybe, besides themselves and Adam, they weren't even aware of the concept of other.

Option 2: Angels, after birth, need something from the Seed to become fully seperate individuals, and they needed this urgently enough to have to hurry over to Adam and couldn't wait for anyone.

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Postby Oedipusfoot » Thu May 14, 2009 7:47 am

Aren't the Angels in competition with each other? It reminds me of evolution a little bit. Each form of Angel wanting to reach self-actualization (the final or best form fitting environment, in evolutions case) by reaching lilith or adam. The Angel that reached them first would become the dominant life-form on the planet (just like the evolved animal becomes dominant in the ecosystem). We see the Angels becoming "smarter" and stronger towards the end, so we could think of them as an evolutionary line. And as the predecessors of evolved animals soon die out, when the Angel who reaches adam or lilith gains supremacy, it's "predecessors," will have lost the chance even if their souls just remained.

The strange thing is that the angels are unique, so...

Okay! Don't go all crazy now. I'm just shooting an idea out. By-passing all the evolution stuff, I really just think that the angels were competing with each other. I mean, would two angels' combined DNA... in lilith? Well, that would make sense from an evolutionary point of view, but I've got to stop with the evolution stuff.

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Postby NemZ » Thu May 14, 2009 9:24 am

Oedipusfoot wrote:Okay! Don't go all crazy now. I'm just shooting an idea out. By-passing all the evolution stuff, I really just think that the angels were competing with each other. I mean, would two angels' combined DNA... in lilith?


I'd buy that more easily if there even one instance of two angels fighting each other.

as for the second part... are you implying the angels want to knock Lilith up? O_o
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Postby SaltyJoe » Thu May 14, 2009 10:15 am

Frankly, i been pondering whether or not the Angels were in sort of an "evolutionary race" or not.

Thematically, it would make sense. In the world of Eva, A.T. fields are the apparatuses that keep individuals separate. And the Angels have so strong A.T.F.-s (or, are so adept at manipulating them) that they can physically control and manifest them to a far greater degree than Lilim. This could mean that they live in a sort of perfect separation.

Granted, Lilim can not bypass each others A.T. fields completely (until Instrumentality), so in a sense, humans are also perfectly separate.

But still, with the Angels, we have widely varied entities, all of which can use their separating fields to manipulate the world around them, all going for a single objective that seems to be attainable only by a single life form at once. To me, this hints at some sort of competition.

Also, about an Angel fighting another: isn't it possible that the Angels identified the Evas as competing progeny of Adam? Different Angels that work towards the same goal as them, so they should be taken out/incapacitated?

EDIT:
If the first part of my post made precious little sense: what i was trying to get to is, that, since each Angel is so different from every other one, and they have so strong barriers between them, to me, they seem like self contained "worlds" of their own. Unlike Lilim, they don't need others to sustain their lives or to generally get around. They are enclosed to the world and each other, and only reach out (Leliel, Arael, Armisael), when they feel it would be beneficial to them.But it's not a neccessity (spelling?) for them.

So if one Angel were to attain unity with Adam, that wouldn't automatically mean that other Angels would be granted long term survival as well.

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Postby Reichu » Thu May 14, 2009 12:49 pm

felineki wrote:Considering that we know so little of the details of their background, it's possible they didn't even know of each others' existence. A sort of "separated at birth" scenario.

Yep.

I also suspect that something about the way things worked out just prevented them from ever meeting one another. Say, they hatched "in sequence", for some reason or another. So Sachiel hatches first and heads to Tokyo-3. By the time Shamshel is out of the egg, Sachiel is dead. So much for sibling reunion.

I don't think I buy the "Angels were competing with one another" idea, among other things mentioned. It seems more likely that a lot of what we see in the show is symptomatic of their unusual situation, and in actuality they were meant to represent a single race of humanity characterized by godlike powers and each individual getting to choose its own shape.

The cues we're given probably conflict a bit, but I'm mainly going by the idea that these guys were theoretically going to have the planet to themselves, they were never supposed to be fighting Lilliputians, and they would have had plenty of time to get to know each other. Additionally, Misato uses the word "jinrui" to refer to them, which means humanity as a race or species. I guess, given the nature of Japanese, it's impossible to know whether she meant one race or many, but since her speech in EoE was in the context of "us versus them", we can probably take a guess.

Since every Angel is intrinsically human, and their forms seem to be determined by their ATFs (i.e., on an individual basis), the idea that one "form" could become dominant doesn't make a whole lot of sense. If an Angel had a child of its own, it seems more likely that the child would just choose its own form in turn.

@SaltyJoe: I wouldn't necessarily conclude that the Angels didn't need each other. Remember Armisael's ronery? There are different kinds of need.

I know I'm in the minority with all this, but I don't mind going against the grain. :devil:

EDIT: Clarifying some fuzzy bits.
Last edited by Reichu on Thu May 14, 2009 10:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby NemZ » Thu May 14, 2009 4:56 pm

Reichu wrote:I know I'm in the minority with all this, but I don't mind going against the grain. :devil:


...especially when it makes so much sense that way.

I'm reminded of a shoop someone made a while back of a herd of Zeruels (Zerui?) calmly grazing on purple trees, like big happy cows. I wonder where that went... ah THERE we go. ^_^
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Postby IrkenEvangelion » Thu May 14, 2009 5:03 pm

NemZ wrote:I'm reminded of a shoop someone made a while back of a herd of Zeruels (Zerui?) calmly grazing on purple trees, like big happy cows. I wonder where that went... ah THERE we go. ^_^


Yes.
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Postby Axell » Thu May 14, 2009 7:20 pm

Plot device.

Angels were all plot devices.

The way they were handled doubly so.

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Postby Reichu » Thu May 14, 2009 8:18 pm

NemZ wrote:a herd of Zeruels (Zerui?)

The Hebrew masculine plural suffix is -im, though I'm not sure how Zeruel's name would get modified (if at all) in order to latch an -im on. Hebrew grammar isn't my specialty.

@Axell: But they're such interesting plot devices...... I do agree that "plot device" is the simplest answer to the original question, however.
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Postby etjusticepourtous » Thu May 14, 2009 8:42 pm

NemZ wrote:
Reichu wrote:I know I'm in the minority with all this, but I don't mind going against the grain. :devil:


...especially when it makes so much sense that way.

I'm reminded of a shoop someone made a while back of a herd of Zeruels (Zerui?) calmly grazing on purple trees, like big happy cows. I wonder where that went... ah THERE we go. ^_^


and the cow says mooooo...

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Postby Axell » Thu May 14, 2009 8:46 pm

@Reichu, they're more than interesting they're awesome :toothy:
Sometimes i just wanna hug the all. I should see if theres little plushies of them, maybe i'll find one from puchi

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Postby SaltyJoe » Fri May 15, 2009 9:56 am

Reichu wrote:Remember Armisael's ronery?


Episode 23 translation wrote:Rei: Pain? no, something different.
Loneliness.
Yes. loneliness.

Rei (Angel): Loneliness?
I don't understand.


Rei: Do you hate being alone?
We are many,
though you hate being alone.
That's called loneliness.

Rei (Angel): That's your mind. Full of sadness.
That's your own mind.


Hmm, to me it always seemed like Armisael was contemplating the very idea of loneliness (experienced through Rei), rather than speaking about her own solitude.

I think that the mental contact between Rei and Armi was just a side effect of the tentacle rape, and not the goal itself (yes, i know this contradicts what i written about the beneficial nature of mental contacts in my previous post. Sue me.). Armi found a suitable duplicate of Adam in Eva-00, and was trying to hijack it.

On the other hand, there is the Angel Tower bit in the same episode. And there was a lot of talking about loneliness before that scene. The Angel Tower might throw a monkey wrench in the "Angels work against each other" theory.


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Postby Reichu » Fri May 15, 2009 10:40 am

SaltyJoe wrote:Hmm, to me it always seemed like Armisael was contemplating the very idea of loneliness (experienced through Rei), rather than speaking about her own solitude.

Armisael was sharing her pain. Rei interpreted this pain for our youngster as loneliness, meaning Armisael's hurt isn't just any old hurt -- she's lonely. Armisael in turn, armed with this new knowledge, called Rei on her own loneliness.

Not sure where you're going with the Angel Tower stuff. I did come up with a theory years back, which might be in the common consciousness these days (hard to tell sometimes), that Armisael is trying to cope with her pain by bringing her dead siblings back. Lonely no more, if only that darned Rei would let her finish the job.
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Postby Oedipusfoot » Fri May 15, 2009 6:55 pm

Reichu: What did you mean about the Angels being "intrinsically human"? You're drawing this from their DNA and from Misato's EoE speech, right?

So we accept CI as canon? It's interesting to go back and read "people are people because they think of themselves as people." I wonder what the significance is behind Angels being able to choose their own form, but the "humans," Lilith's children, can't.

edit: Oh, man. Now I’m confused about something else. Why did Lilith and Adam need “successors” to reach them? Was it about physical complementation (almost sexual...?), or a "return back to the beginning, to the mother" sort of thing?. What did it mean to have a dominant life form as the one who would merge with Adam or Lilith?? What would happen to those Angels who didn’t merge with Adam/Lilith, supposing that they woke up closely after each other?

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Postby pablumatic » Fri May 15, 2009 7:34 pm

Other than the god of budgetary constraints holding them back, the schedule for angel attacks was never consistent. Attacks could come days or weeks apart. By sheer chance 14 angel attacks happened without overlapping since there was no apparent pattern. Tabris's attack was a little more planned out, but still didn't overlap.


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