Post 3I humans and the nature of the fruits, souls &c.

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

Moderator: Board Staff

Axell
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 1618
Joined: Jul 30, 2008
Location: What are you a stalker?
Gender: Male

Post 3I humans and the nature of the fruits, souls &c.

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axell » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:22 pm

So coming from a long list of random thoughts, one of them being my old silly comment on what would Shinji and Asuka eat, some interesting thoughts came to mind.

When Shinji and Asuka untanged, they behaved mostly human so we can assume they sill have the fruit of wisdom. This implies that the friuts are attached to souls, which would explain why evas dont have s2 organs, they dont have angel souls and therefore are not gifted with fruit of life.

Now to take away from that clever thought heres some fanwankery. When humanity was instrumentalized, could it be possible that since adam's soul was in the mix that when Shinji and Asuka came back they carried with them not only the fruit of wisdom but of life too? This goes back to a silly coment i made about them having to live off of lcl and people juice. But if they had fruits of life that would solve their mortality problem. Otherwise they'd be dead soon and returning would be very pointless.
Last edited by Axell on Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

xtr00kvltcorex
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 368
Joined: Apr 13, 2009
Location: alone above a raging sea
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby xtr00kvltcorex » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:55 pm

thats a pretty plausible outcome. immortal, mentally unstable teenagers. i like it.
I’m spinning
Faster than the earth
I’m shining
Brighter than the stars

VoidEater
Matarael
Matarael
User avatar
Posts: 580
Joined: Sep 11, 2008
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby VoidEater » Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:58 pm

I hadn't considered intelligence or the S2 attached to the soul. Interesting.

What about the core? Is that purely from DNA of the host, or attached to a soul, manifesting as the soul incarnates? Once an S2 or core exists, it seems it can be transplanted.

Do Evas have their own soul in addition to the implanted/harvested/whatever resident soul?

This quickly moves on to the issue of the core, and that may be off-topic...
"I would like to see a clown remake of 'Terms of Endearment' or 'The Thorn Birds.' Or maybe a big disaster movie, like 'Towering Inferno.' That's stuff I'd pay to see. Nothing says entertainment more than burning clowns."

The Invincible Shinji
Israfel
Israfel
User avatar
Posts: 459
Joined: Mar 22, 2009
Location: Tokyo-3

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby The Invincible Shinji » Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:48 pm

I've always wondered if they had become immortal, that would be interesting. If you think about it like that, it could imply Shinji was alone a lot longer then two months.
I'm an A/S shipper and Soryu and Shikinami are one in the same.

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 63
Posts: 21050
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:09 pm

xtr00kvltcorex wrote:thats a pretty plausible outcome. immortal, mentally unstable teenagers. i like it.


http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?p=194175#194175 :devil:
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics|🕊|🐸|MAL
Avatar: Whatever happens in 𝄆, we will always have the original Neon Nova Exceed!

NemZ
Token Misanthrope
Token Misanthrope
User avatar
Posts: 15804
Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Location: St. Louis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby NemZ » Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:18 pm

^
That's what immediately came to my mind as well.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:35 pm

VoidEater wrote:What about the core? Is that purely from DNA of the host, or attached to a soul, manifesting as the soul incarnates?

The core exists, or is "made to exist", beforehand, as demonstrated by the image of pre-CE Eva-01 attached to Lilith, and the stuff in the CI mentioning Kyoko's "contact experiment with an Eva's core", among other things.

Do Evas have their own soul in addition to the implanted/harvested/whatever resident soul?

Ritsuko in episode 23 wrote:The Evas do not intrinsically have souls, but they have human souls embedded in them.


Axell wrote:This implies that the seeds are attached to souls, which would explain why evas dont have s2 organs, they dont have angel souls and therefore are not gifted with fruit of life.

I think you mean "Fruits", not "Seeds".

I've been an advocate of the idea that the fruits are intrinsically metaphysical concepts going back years, but there are some problems with this. For one thing, we have the CI saying that the S2 Engine and the Fruit of Life are the same thing -- which is actually consistent with what we're told in the show, too.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

Synapsid
Pilot
Pilot
User avatar
Posts: 2143
Joined: Aug 05, 2008
Location: NERV Baths

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Synapsid » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:19 pm

xtr00kvltcorex wrote:thats a pretty plausible outcome. immortal, mentally unstable teenagers. i like it.
I didn't catch any Post 3I context that hinted at immortality or any super human condition. In fact Asuka's near strangulation seems to show that they are every bit as mortal (mentally and physically) as they were before...Then again I could easily have missed something.

@Reichu
:sweatdrop: Um, this probably won't make you any more eager to revisit the manga but Sadamoto's take on Shogouki seemed to imply the presence of another spirit…Of course that’s all his doing and the anime has nothing to imply more than one soul.
It's a trap!|Saigo no shisha seitenkan
Genderbending is an important part of any fandom and must be taken very seriously. ZapalacX
If you ever say that name again, I will hunt you down and neuter you with a spork. Sailor Star Dust *cue Shinji's bloodcurling girly scream* LiLi
leave my innocent Shinjiko thread alone! Reichu Asuka would be the one going "SURPRISE BUTTSEKS, BAKA!!!!" while of course in appropriate dress and, *cough, gulp, snort*, with a certain strapped on accessory THE Hal E. Burton 9000

NemZ
Token Misanthrope
Token Misanthrope
User avatar
Posts: 15804
Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Location: St. Louis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby NemZ » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:23 pm

Yeah, though it might be kinda nifty I have to say the show seems to be on the side of fruits being physical objects.

You might be able to work around that by saying the metaphysical fruit is accessed via some physical organ rather than the fruit itself being physical I suppose, along the same lines as saying that GNR's spontaneously generated vulvae are doors to Guf but are not physically linked to it. that's not unlike some metaphysical conceptions of the brain (particularly the pituitary gland) as the physical contact point of the body to the insubstantial mind/soul.

Also, I wonder... if an angel ate a lilim (more likely a handful) could it have gained the fruit of knowledge and 'become a god'?
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

Axell
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 1618
Joined: Jul 30, 2008
Location: What are you a stalker?
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axell » Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:29 pm

Reichu wrote:I think you mean "Fruits", not "Seeds".


yea that was a typo.

as for the whole Shinji and Asuka having the fruit of life, i did say i was fanwanking. Just something that came to mind when thinking of what they would have to eat to survive if they were the only living things left. My original thought of them being forced to drink people juice probably sounds more reasonable

Synapsid
Pilot
Pilot
User avatar
Posts: 2143
Joined: Aug 05, 2008
Location: NERV Baths

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Synapsid » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:06 pm

@NemZ
That just seems to make sense; certainly it would explain some of the visuals in EVA. Some sort of dualist interpretation (where organs do serve as the seat of functions but aren’t the element itself), would also mean an angel could snack on as many lilim as it wanted but not gain their properties.
@Axell
Yeah, I guess the protoplasm sea can make a passable soup...Although I forgot that even though the graves seem to hint at Shinji having camped out for a good while his clothes, nails and hair don’t seem to show signs of time…you could be right after all.
It's a trap!|Saigo no shisha seitenkan
Genderbending is an important part of any fandom and must be taken very seriously. ZapalacX
If you ever say that name again, I will hunt you down and neuter you with a spork. Sailor Star Dust *cue Shinji's bloodcurling girly scream* LiLi
leave my innocent Shinjiko thread alone! Reichu Asuka would be the one going "SURPRISE BUTTSEKS, BAKA!!!!" while of course in appropriate dress and, *cough, gulp, snort*, with a certain strapped on accessory THE Hal E. Burton 9000

Axell
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 1618
Joined: Jul 30, 2008
Location: What are you a stalker?
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axell » Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:39 pm

looking to far into things is fun

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:17 pm

Synapsid wrote:Um, this probably won't make you any more eager to revisit the manga but Sadamoto's take on Shogouki seemed to imply the presence of another spirit…

Don't worry, I've already ranted about that amply.

Of course that’s all his doing and the anime has nothing to imply more than one soul.

What it has, in fact, indicates the exact opposite. Since we are told Evas are intrinsically soulless, there can be no other soul than what is put into them. (Unless you want to go Fuzzy Chickens and start making shit up out of nowhere.)

NemZ wrote:I have to say the show seems to be on the side of fruits being physical objects.

You "want to go there" with the Fruit of Knowledge?

Synapsid wrote:Yeah, I guess the protoplasm sea can make a passable soup...

Only assuming the ample amounts of salt in the water were adequately diluted. (Shinji was probably just looting cans from the nearest trashed settlement.)
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

Axell
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 1618
Joined: Jul 30, 2008
Location: What are you a stalker?
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axell » Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:29 am

the only things left over from an anti at field would be pure sugar and other such chemicals, but a lot of our food comes from other dead living things (do plants count as lilin? i know the answer is yes but honestly its just weird)

canned foods would have contained once live meat or plants and therefore would now be empty, unless the plants re-envisioned themselves into being....

other than my fanwanking of s2 organs or edible lcl, they'd probably have to survive on sugar found at you local candly store. as for water, they'd neet to learn to dilute lcl and fast.

Alaska Slim
Frigus Ignoramus
Frigus Ignoramus
User avatar
Posts: 4955
Joined: Oct 08, 2007
Location: The Land Up Over
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Alaska Slim » Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:09 am

Axell wrote:canned foods would have contained once live meat or plants and therefore would now be empty, unless the plants re-envisioned themselves into being....

That's a misconceptionn, while plant and animal life probably wasn't left unaffected by it all, they are not lilin, thus Instrumentality itself would have left them alone.

Also, sugar is still organic, so by your logic they'd only have salt. :XP:
"It's all fun and games till one of you gets my foot up your ass." - FofR, TrivialBeing.net Webmaster

"I blame teenage girls for everything." - Dr. Dave

"God is in his Heaven, and free men walk upon the Earth" - Rev. Robert Sirico, President of the Acton Institute

Axell
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 1618
Joined: Jul 30, 2008
Location: What are you a stalker?
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axell » Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:47 am

I'm pretty sure all normal life on earth is lilith based and therfore called lilin. We are the final result. And even if they had a different name, they'd be destroyed by the AATF. Its even said that microbial life was destroyed by 2I in antartica.

If your trying to make a point that plants were not included in instrumentality, i agree, they probably werent, but they'd be tanged non the less

as for sugar, its an organic substance, not organic. Its made by organic processes but is not alive nor does it contain a soul so does not require an ATF and is unaffected by a AATF

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 63
Posts: 21050
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:49 am

Alaska Slim wrote:plant and animal life probably ... are not lilin
All life on Earth except the Angels (which are Adamite) comes from Lilith qua Seed.
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics|🕊|🐸|MAL
Avatar: Whatever happens in 𝄆, we will always have the original Neon Nova Exceed!

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:34 am

Axell wrote:I'm pretty sure all normal life on earth is lilith based and therfore called lilin.

I'm pretty sure Kaworu was not referring to paramecia and pine trees when he called Ode to Joy the greatest achievement of Lilin culture.

Not to mention Lilin=us is directly stated in the CI. And, I've just recently learned, in the screenplay for episode 25'. The latter doesn't strictly count, I guess, but I kind of wish they'd left it in.

Warning, crappy(??) translation alert.

Misato:
They intend to cause Third Impact, using the Eva Series, and return all humanity to nothingness.
Fifteen years ago, your mother and others reduced the scale of Second Impact by making Adam undergo degradation.
Shinji-kun... what's made you fight up until now?

(Shinji is silent.)

Misato:
The Angels. Enigmatic, non-communicative entities. The 18th Angel remaining in the end is mankind. The Angel called Lilin, born from Lilith, who is like Adam.
Angels and man are fundamentally the same thing. Angels are merely another possibility for humankind: humans that cast aside human form.
People cannot live without the mothers of life -- the Sun, Earth, and Moon. But an Angel that isn't dependent on them would be a new form of life, capable of surviving the harshest conditions.
Eva was its model.
People will probably get wiped out, either way. But right now, we can't just sit back and let humanity be annihilated.
Okay? Destroy the entire Eva Series. [very last line makes no sense to me]
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

Axell
Bridge Bunny
Bridge Bunny
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 1618
Joined: Jul 30, 2008
Location: What are you a stalker?
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Axell » Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:44 am

i understand why they wouldnt be true lilin, but they would at least have to be some sort of sub lilin. but again, they aren't really important. (dont tell me we have a tangent on page one of this thread already...) lilin or not they would have all been tanged if the example set by 2I was follwed, where no form of life survived.

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:51 am

Don't get so caught up on the name. "Lilin" ONLY refers to us. If you need to refer to everybody, there's always "LDO" (Lilith-derived organism).
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog


Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests