P3II Questions: Asuka or Not?

[Axell]

The Asuka he sees there is not Asuka herself, but rather the image of her as he himself sees of her in his mind. This is all a fantasy, his fantasy, but yet still she rejects his exasperated feelings, showing he views her as being unrequited, unattainable, unwilling to listen, and yet despite all that he still felt drawn to come to her, and to her personally.

What's more, think of his reaction after this, the throwing of the chair, his outbursts of "Don't leave me alone! Don't abandon me! PLEASE DON'T KILL ME! ", and ultimately the strangling of Asuka herself. He views her rejection not with acceptance, but with complete pain and anguish, and again it's inside his own mind and yet, he still can't accept the self-created "inedible" rejection, something he had done with just about everyone else, he had accepted "Everyone hates me". He then lashes out, because he is attempting to make Asuka feel his pain, to understand his frustration, but why her? And furthermore, why didn't it continue to anyone else? This was kept strictly to Asuka alone.

With no food around, i wonder who'd go cannibal first...or is lcl just made of yummy proteins and sugars that can substitute for food? I assume Shinji would be forced to drink first..

[Shin-seiki]

@Alaska Slim: I don't wish to take things off-topic, but there are all sorts of indications that the other characters in the Pre-31 Instrumentality sequence (i.e., from the sandbox scene to where Shinji tells Rei "everyone should just die") are every bit as much 'there' and actively inputing and participating in what we see and hear in those scenes as Shinji is. In particular, I would say that the Asuka who coldly replies "No" to his pitiful plea to be helped, to be saved, is most certainly the real Asuka, and not merely some figment of Shinji's own mind. The drama of the movie as a whole is concentrated, in a sense, down to this one moment, and the dramatic weight and meaning of her rejection and abnegation is highly dependent on the fact that it is coming from her own mind and will, and not just some ephemeral 'vision' or 'dream' of Shinji's. To put Shinji in this spot (of having god-like power over the fate of humanity), and then have his crucial choice (to say FOAD to the world, a wish that Rei then obediently carries out upon the real world) be dependent on his interaction with a mere figment in his own mind is... well LAME is the most polite word I can come up with to characterize it; if it were true, then Anno is a terrible writer, and it would tend to render EoE as a whole into a big, stinking, pile of ****.

[Reichu]

Vindicating the idea that the others are really interacting with Shinji is a fairly simple matter, anyway, due to the whole matter of Shinji being privy to some information about Misato that we know to be real, and which he would have no way of knowing if he were just dreaming the whole thing up. At that point, saying the others (well... Asuka, Rei, and Ritsuko, anyway) must be Shinji's imagination is picking and choosing without rhyme or reason.

[Baz]

By the time of the coffee pot scene, we had Asuka, Misato, Kaji, and Ritsuko all deceased. What I need to know is, how do we explain the presence of Pen-Pen in that scene? Was he destroyed by the 3I eye-of-doom explosion? And was he in fact a sentient penguin?

[Reichu]

I don't think Kaji was actually there as any more than part of Misato's memories. Note that he doesn't participate in the interactions at all. First we hear a replay of him from Misato's time at college, and when we briefly see him it's from when he and Misato hooked up at the love motel in episode 20 (you can tell from the ceiling).

I've never heard an explanation for Pen-Pen that satisfied me.

[NemZ]

Expanding on what Shin-Seiki said,

And furthermore, why didn't it continue to anyone else?

Because he's more afraid of reaching out to them then he is of Asuka. He flat-out says so, and she throws it back in his face as proof that this is all about his desperate loneliness; any benefit to her in this proposal is coincidental.

I'm pretty sure most standards of romantic love involve a degree of putting others needs above yourself, and this scene shows that whatever Shinji feels falls short of that. Asuka realizes this and doesn't want to settle for just being an item of his convenience, thus rejects him.

In fact, in the whole of pre-instrumentality, their relationship comes catastrophically to the forefront, with her influence and input becoming greater then that of even his own mother

Yui isn't really in this psychological traffic jam, so how is this surprising?

For someone whom he doesn't love, and considers merely option "D", he sure as hell does thinks of her a lot, and with great emphasis.

...and then promptly forgets about her for the rest of the movie.

Then there are the live action scenes.

Deleted scenes may be interesting but are not especially relevant. If you want to go that route, what does the 'severed arm' ending say about your theory?

At last we come to the beach scene itself

For SSD-chan's sake I'll keep my opinions on that scene to myself for now. Suffice it to say I disagree with your assessment.

[Baz]

I've never heard an explanation for Pen-Pen that satisfied me.

He was dead, he was smart (heck, maybe he even had a human soul implanted?), and he has as much right to be there in the apartment as Shinji and Asuka. What other explanation is needed? I'm partly kidding here, but I think it's a good explanation, except the human soul bit.

[NemZ]

He's part of the memory. Then as now, his role is to poke his head in then leave the crazy humans alone.

[Alaska Slim]

@Alaska Slim: I don't wish to take things off-topic, but there are all sorts of indications that the other characters in the Pre-31 Instrumentality sequence

Not to the same degree, no, and not with the same underlying focus. None of them had their one on one with Shinji in Pre-Instremntality, in Misato scenes she wasn’t even talking to him, only referred to him in the 3rd person.

(i.e., from the sandbox scene to where Shinji tells Rei "everyone should just die")

That was right after the live action scenes, and its because Rei is Lilith, she's was the one guiding him in it.

I would say that the Asuka who coldly replies "No" to his pitiful plea to be helped, to be saved, is most certainly the real Asuka,

It might be how she would actually react, but it is not her. All but Shinji, and to a degree, Rei, have lost their A.T. fields, their individuality, he can sort through their thoughts, but by that point they no longer had a singular voice, not until after he decided "No, I won't do this."

and not merely some figment of Shinji's own mind. The drama of the movie as a whole is concentrated, in a sense, down to this one moment, and the dramatic weight and meaning of her rejection and abnegation is highly dependent on the fact that it is coming from her own mind and will, and not just some ephemeral 'vision' or 'dream' of Shinji's.

I would disagree, this is the furthering of Shinji's own "Sickness Unto Death", his belief, that no matter what he does, he will be rejected, he will always be scorned, hated, even by those he wishes the most to understand. He believse this, because he believes he is not worth anything, he has no value and would cause others only pain. Thus tying back into again the need to "love yourself", to "take care of yourself", so that you may do the same for others.

To put Shinji in this spot (of having god-like power over the fate of humanity), and then have his crucial choice (to say FOAD to the world, a wish that Rei then obediently carries out upon the real world) be dependent on his interaction with a mere figment in his own mind is...

The Rei of instrumentality was Rei/lilith, though she seemed all too eager to go the other way.... so it really did rely, in fact, on Shinji's theory of mind of other people, what he believed they would say, or what he had them stand for (I believe Mr. Tines described Rei in that instance as being "wisdom") the fact you had people like Kaji talking to him, someone whom died far before instrumentality took place, demonstrates this most.

if it were true, then Anno is a terrible writer, and it would tend to render EoE as a whole into a big, stinking, pile of ****.

Well, you have every right to your opinion, I won't begrudge you on that, but I should point out Edgar Allen Poe, William Golding, and Archibald McLeish have all done the same thing, and their works are quite revered, thus making this more of a case of Your mileage may vary. ;)

[The Invincible Shinji]

He's part of the memory. Then as now, his role is to poke his head in then leave the crazy humans alone.

What if Pen-Pen is there because this scene was a flashback?

[Baz]

What if Pen-Pen is there because this is a flashback?

This doesn't work for me because I don't subscribe to either the "flashback" or "all in Shinji's head" theories. For me this is a pre-instrumentality Asuka/Shiji/Pen-Pen ménage à trois.

[The Invincible Shinji]

I know, but the directors cut of episode 24 showed the same coffee pot hitting the floor.

[NemZ]

But why would penpen be dead at that point?

[rberlin]

Pen Pen is still a lilim. He descended from Lilith as did everything else on this planet besides the Angels.

All Dogs Go to Instrumentality.
Penguins too.

When did Shinji officially enter instrumentality? When he let Kaworu violate him with the lance or when 01 fell into Rei's forehead vagina?

[Baz]

But why would penpen be dead at that point?

I already explained this. The mega-pink-explosion that unearthed the black moon also would have killed everyone within a thousand kilometers, possibly including our beloved Hikari. It's just a conjecture, but the guys inside Nerv headquarters are the only people in that part of Japan who would have survived.

I know, but the directors cut of episode 24 showed the same coffee pot hitting the floor.

I've seen the evidence, and I still disagree with the theory. It's just a coffee pot. Symbolic of something, maybe, but no more than that.

[Mr. Tines]

The Asuka he sees there is not Asuka herself, but rather the image of her as he himself sees of her in his mind.

This stuff really belongs in Instrumentality 101 next door -- but it's not as if the show does anything to conceal what is going on. Indeed EoTV infodumps at us

The complementation
by the instrumentality of man
has just begun.

Gendou: No,
It's not that everything returns to nothingness.
It's nothing but returning everything to the beginning.
Nothing but returning things to the mother which
has long since been lost.
All the minds become one mind, obtaining peace forever.
Nothing but that.

and

Asuka: Where am I?

Shinji: It's my mind within Asuka.

Asuka: Then, it's my mind within Shinji.


In the case of Soryuu Asuka Langley.

and again for all the other cases

[Alaska Slim]

Expanding on what Shin-Seiki said,

And furthermore, why didn't it continue to anyone else?

Because he's more afraid of reaching out to them then he is of Asuka.

And yet we have him looking over Misato's memories, and conversing with Rei all out through instrumentality. It’s not just fear, he relates to her more, thinks, if she simply listened, she would be the one most able to understand.

He flat-out says so, and she throws it back in his face as proof that this is all about his desperate loneliness; any benefit to her in this proposal is coincidental.

"Her benefit" isn't really the issue as I see it. Shinji wishes for, well, companionship (and I don’t mean that in a strict romantic sense) , but by the very fact his interactions with Asuka dominate in pre-instrumentality, shows it is she whom he most reveres, the one he most desperately wishes to understand. Even Misato recognized Asuka was someone Shinji relied on, and for good reason, she portrayed “Strength”, the very thing he wished he had.

He was afraid of Misato because she lost Kaji, and he didn't know what to do or say, yet he also knew Asuka had lost her Eva and something else, and was just as easily at a loss at what to say to her, but yet still had a subconscious wish to approach her and find out, despite his belief she would reject him all the same.

I'm pretty sure most standards of romantic love involve a degree of putting others needs above yourself, and this scene shows that whatever Shinji feels falls short of that.

On the contrary, the entire basis behind Shinji's reasoning is that he will end up hurting others, and that being the worthless boy he is, he should try to stay out of the way as much as possible. What he just doesn't have enough tact to realize though, is that by just ignoring them he won't save them from causing them pain either. By his very existence, he affects his reality, life is not a spectator sport, you need to actualize yourself.

Asuka realizes this and doesn't want to settle for just being an item of his convenience, thus rejects him.

And for that, I hold her in high regard, she as a character didn't bow to clichés. Still, in that scene it was implied to be Shinji's theory of mind, not Asuka herself.

Yui isn't really in this psychological traffic jam, so how is this surprising?

Oh she made her presence known, she among those who kicked it off. If you're referring to Pre-instrumentality, she was there too when it comes to the series, and at the end of everything of course.

...and then promptly forgets about her for the rest of the movie.

When exactly? She never seems to be out focus for more then five minutes.

Pre-instrumentality focused on her, what occurred before that focused on her, the live actions scenes focused on her, and she was promptly there at the end, possibly by Shinji's own design, as I doubt it was Asuka's. And if it was merely fate, well then, back we are to Kaji’s quote, implying things all the same.

Then there are the live action scenes.

Deleted scenes may be interesting but are not especially relevant.

Considering part of it was still left in, I think it was. The Live actions scenes to EoE were what the Alternate sequence scenes were to the TV ending. It being taken out simply means we didn't see what (one of) Shinji's "dream(s)" was (were).

If you want to go that route, what does the 'severed arm' ending say about your theory?

For my beach point, yes, it would change things, but those scenes would have actually replaced something, and a rather pivotal point of the series at that, the live action scenes did not. Just like the unused storyboard of Toji playing basketball helping to infer his arm was left intact, I cite this as evidence of Shinji's feelings going beyond simple "care". It may not be romantic interest, but its not merely as shallow as what Shinji would give to anyone in passing. All signs point to it being far more profound. :shades:

[Reichu]

Pen Pen is still a lilim. He descended from Lilith as did everything else on this planet besides the Angels.

"Lilin" just refers to Homo sapiens. This confuses people, but it's true. You think that when Kaworu said "Ode to Joy" was the greatest achievement of Lilin culture, he was talking about penguins and paramecia?

There's probably an old, generic P3II/HIP thread this can be split to. (Instrumentality 101 is on its own path at the moment and doesn't need to be bogged down with this stuff.) I also notice Alaska Slim conveniently ignored the stuff I posted about Misato -- go fig.

[Alaska Slim]

I also notice Alaska Slim conveniently ignored the stuff I posted about Misato -- go fig.

GOMEN NASAI!!!

No, I mentioned it, I apologize for not addressing you directly, during my first response I was unexpectedly dragged away, and that threw me for a loop as to my stance here.

In any event, I checked myself about the scene changing, didn't recall it, but there it was, the change to the orange glowing room, didn't catch it I suppose due to the color being the same from the room Asuka was standing in before.

[NemZ]

Is this the right thread now?

@Baz: Interesting point... but if that's the case, why the heck don't any of the classmates show up?

It’s not just fear, he relates to her more, thinks, if she simply listened, she would be the one most able to understand.

He only relates to her more because the others have freaked him the hell out. He doesn't have the slightest clue how to treat Rei since discovering her origins and Misato has fouled their relationship by making inappropriate advances on him and coldly dismissing his turmoil over Kaworu. Asuka is the only person left that he's on any sort of communicating basis with whatsoever.

"Her benefit" isn't really the issue as I see it.

Nor as Shinji does, and that's the point. He wants her to ease his pain but makes only vague platitudes regarding hers. He doesn't want to understand anyone, doesn't really try all that hard to do so (as Rei points out); he just wants them to understand him.

the entire basis behind Shinji's reasoning is that he will end up hurting others, and that being the worthless boy he is, he should try to stay out of the way as much as possible.

No, you're thinking of Gendo. Shinji is far more open to others, actively trying to earn their pity, concern, and compassion. He does think poorly of himself but rather than wall himself away to spare them he goes out of his way to help others in an effort to get them to be nice to him. His reclusion is often a cry for attention, not an earnest seeking for solitude.

Still, in that scene it was implied to be Shinji's theory of mind, not Asuka herself.

No, it wasn't. That really was Asuka who rejected him and got strangled for it, then welcomed oblivion without putting up a fight.

If you're referring to Pre-instrumentality, she was there too when it comes to the series,

I'm gonna need to see some evidence for that claim, Slim, which is going to be difficult as P3I doesn't appear to happen as a separate stage of the process in EoTV.

When exactly? She never seems to be out focus for more then five minutes.

What movie are you referring to? She has no interaction with him before P3I other than unwittingly becoming living porn. During P3I they talk past each other and it all goes straight to shit. After the strangulation scene Asuka has precisely two lines: "I'd rather die than do it with you!" and "How disgusting."

Also, the deleted scene didn't happen... pretty much by definition.