Once more with feeling -- Yui is an evil bitch

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Postby ArborVitae » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:38 am

slothen wrote:
ArborVitae wrote:stuff

I resent you telling me to reread your post, since I read it several times, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because my post was a bit unclear, and because my class was almost over I didn't respond to the later parts of it. You've got the most compelling argument I've seen for the "Yui-as-evil-bitch" hypothesis.


It was meant as a request and not as a pun. I am deeply sorry if you saw it in another way, but it was not charged in any other way other than that of a request, in all honesty. Let's all keep having fun.
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Postby AyrYntake » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:12 pm

Conclusion: Yui is a pragmatist who also has Shinji's wellbeing in mind, but not Asuka's? Is that a fair enough statement?
I guess it is harsh if she deliberately ALLOWED Asuka to die--I might argue that she wasn't largely aware of most outside goings-on before Rei initiates 3I--but if she did, we know that it's because she wanted to protect Shinji. In any case, she'd definitely be aware that if things went according to her plan, Asuka would be able to bring herself right back after 3I, so no permanent damage done.
As for the deterministic 3I argument, then we know that the only thing limiting her decisions would be Shinji and not herself, which grants her SOME selfless quality to a certain extent. On the other hand, if she thought that 3I was inevitable she might be more inclined to prevent it from ever happening again.
She likes to be in control of the situation; that much we know, but who doesn't? Being manipulative doesn't necessary make a character "evil" as such, especially when she's got godly power in her hands.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:27 pm

AyrYntake wrote:I guess it is harsh if she deliberately ALLOWED Asuka to die--I might argue that she wasn't largely aware of most outside goings-on before Rei initiates 3I--but if she did, we know that it's because she wanted to protect Shinji.

I'm not sure the "non-aware" argument can really work, since Yui just sits there and does nothing until literally right after it's announced that Eva-02 is a goner, at which point she breaks out of the Bakelite with no discernible effort. Eva-02 was acting as an obstacle to launching 3I, which Yui evidently has a stake in, and I guess she's opted for a passive approach here (let Seele's forces do the dirty work, if they can manage). And, well, what's Asuka dying now versus later; "suffering builds character!" anyway. :wink:

She likes to be in control of the situation; that much we know, but who doesn't?

It would've been funny if the show were written differently to present Yui as the character who knew what had to be done to foil Seele, but ends up getting shot in the back instead because she's too preoccupied with nitty-gritty ethical considerations to save her own hide ("nobody has the right to become a god including me, and if I told Gendo about my plans his life might be in danger too, but if I don't tell him he might go crazy, and how can I be sure Shinji will be cared for in my absence, who will watch over him, what with Gendo going crazy, Fuyutsuki-sensei hating children more than he cares about me, and any of my own familial contacts being from an evil and insane organization, etc. etc.!"). And Gendo still abandons Shinji, and, without Yui around in Eva-01, Seele wins.
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Postby AyrYntake » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:43 pm

Maybe it's around the time when EVA-02 goes down that Rei merges with Lilith all the way down there? It's not a definite must, but chronologically, it's possible and it works--hopefully without the need for TOO much fanwank.
As for the humanitarian Yui option, I dunno. That would kinda explain where Shinji gets all his indecisive genes from...although a SEELE-win ending WOULD make me want to write death threats to Anno.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:49 pm

AyrYntake wrote:Maybe it's around the time when EVA-02 goes down that Rei merges with Lilith all the way down there? It's not a definite must, but chronologically, it's possible and it works--hopefully without the need for TOO much fanwank.

They cut to Terminal Dogma right after Eva-01 activates so Gendo can comment on the fact that Eva-01 has activated. Rei starts falling apart after this, at the beginning of 26', at which point Gendo does the deep-fondle.

Episode 01 makes it pretty apparent, as well, that Evas possess a real-time awareness of their environs, which makes Yui's "block the falling lights no jutsu" possible. It's also apparent from subsequent episodes that Yui has taken drama classes and knows when to prolong self-activation for when it will achieve the maximum impact.
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Postby NemZ » Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:48 pm

Reichu wrote:I'm not sure the "non-aware" argument can really work, since Yui just sits there and does nothing until literally right after it's announced that Eva-02 is a goner, at which point she breaks out of the Bakelite with no discernible effort.


Beat me to it.

(yui thoughts)


The correct answer then was to stop it before they fucked around with Adam in the first place, or somehow sabatoge the CE process so adam was simply destroyed rather than awoken.

Failing that, get rid of Lilith and 01 as soon as the last angel is out of the picture. If not self destruct, how about absorbing marshmallow jesus and doing all the 3I stuff all on her own, not involving Shinji or Rei in the slightest (Gendo optional)... just take her fruits, the lance, and go do her thing.

Just about the worst thing she could do is to let Asuka die for nothing, involve Shinji at all, and passively allow GNR to ruin the world... unless for some reason she actually -wanted- those things to happen.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:02 pm

NemZ wrote:The correct answer then was to stop it before they fucked around with Adam in the first place,


The problem with this is, from what I understand at least, Seele intentionally brought up Second Impact by fucking around with Adam (although the Katsuragi team apparently had no idea they were doing Seele's dirty work).

Just about the worst thing she could do is to let Asuka die for nothing, involve Shinji at all, and passively allow GNR to ruin the world...


1) As EoE's final scene shows, people are able to return if they choose.

2) It's possible Yui didn't have much of a choice then to bring about a temporary Third Impact, since Third Impact was supposedly unavoidable.

3) Before Eva-01 bursts out of Lilith's eye and Shinji says he wants to see everybody again, we see scenes of the Earth gradually restoring itself to it's normal state (trees, people laying down (from the LCL Sea?), people walking around, then a city).
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Postby NemZ » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:16 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:The problem with this is, from what I understand at least, Seele intentionally brought up Second Impact by fucking around with Adam (although the Katsuragi team apparently had no idea they were doing Seele's dirty work).


which perhaps she and gendo, being insiders to the whole deal, might have have been able to subvert if they tried.

point-by-point:

1) Yes, but the world is clearly screwed anyway. at the very least modern culture is over and a period of chaotic tribal violence and nonexistant infrastructure will quickly claim the lives of a large percentage of those who choose to return (assuming anyone else does).

2) I refuse to accept that just because people whose choices I'm questioning said so.

3) Probably a long-term view of the world... definately not at all what Shinji actually came back to.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:40 pm

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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:44 pm

If Mr. Tines sent Reichu a hundred euros through PayPal every time he posted that bloody screenshot...

NemZ wrote:I refuse to accept that just because people whose choices I'm questioning said so.

If you refuse to accept the "3I = inevitable" premise, then I guess there's no helping the "only the biggest bitch in the universe would let this shit happen" POV, eh? What's left to discuss?
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Postby NemZ » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:15 pm

Reichu wrote:If you refuse to accept the "3I = inevitable" premise, then I guess there's no helping the "only the biggest bitch in the universe would let this shit happen" POV, eh? What's left to discuss?


I don't think she's the biggest bitch in the universe (well, literally perhaps), but I do think she has a lot to answer for. The way things go down the only ways I can see to understand it is that she wanted all this to happen, she just didn't care, or Anno left a hell of a lot of important info unsaid.
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Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:18 pm

NemZ wrote:The way things go down the only ways I can see to understand it is that she wanted all this to happen, she just didn't care, or Anno left a hell of a lot of important info unsaid.

Since this is Evangelion, and since it's pretty hard to reconcile either of the first two with everything in the show in a way that makes a lick of sense, my bets are on (C).
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Postby AyrYntake » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:05 pm

Anno left plenty of important information unsaid. Why wouldn't he? He does it all the time anyway.
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Postby NemZ » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:11 pm

That's hardly a satisfying answer. Sure Anno clearly handwaved quite a bit in the series but usually he's very good with explaining character motivations. rule of cool applied to ATF effects and such is one thing, but leaving a character who is central to the plot so vague is a rather notable omission.
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Postby AyrYntake » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:17 pm

I disagree. The allure of Yui's character is in the very nature of its unknowability. What better to provide mystery than a character who can never directly speak to anyone, only performs in battle and acquires godly power therein?
Notable? Definitely. An omission? I think not.
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Postby Trajan » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:45 pm

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:Image

Also this tangent --> viewtopic.php?t=10494


Aw...they look so cute together. Too bad they're both terrible parents.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:09 pm

View Original PostTrajan wrote:Aw...they look so cute together. Too bad they're both terrible parents.


To be fair, Yui has a REALLY good excuse.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:31 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:To be fair, Yui has a REALLY good excuse.


I've always thought that excuse was the worst thing about her as a parent; it basically guaranteed Shinji would be drawn into this whole mess and ultimately destroyed.

Worst. Parent. Ever.

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Postby Azathoth » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:47 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Worst. Parent. Ever.


Yeah, but the point is that she has an excuse for her dreadful parenting: she perceives a moral imperative in her life which is far more important than her qualities as a mother, and proceeds to fulfill it - to Shinji's relative benefit, as painful as it is.
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Postby Bagheera » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:00 pm

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:Yeah, but the point is that she has an excuse for her dreadful parenting: she perceives a moral imperative in her life which is far more important than her qualities as a mother, and proceeds to fulfill it - to Shinji's relative benefit, as painful as it is.


I don't think any of it was to his benefit. Every problem he has at the beginning of the story can be laid squarely at Gendo's feet, and Gendo was who he was because Yui did her silly experiment 10 years prior. Everything that happened after he showed up (with the exception of the Dummy System incident) is all Yui. Any benefit Shinji got from Yui only served to offset the rather horrific damage (both direct and indirect) she's inflicted upon him for the last ten years.

Does she have an excuse? Well, yeah. SEELE was intent on ending life as we know it, after all, so stopping them is kinda important. Does that change the fact that she did what she did to Shinji? Nope. She has an excuse, but she's still the worst parent ever (and that's before she consciously abandons her child to a post-apocalyptic wasteland so she can wander around in space in a giant robot for all time. She doesn't really have an excuse for that part.).


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