Once more with feeling -- Yui is an evil bitch

[AuraTwilight]

I used the word "material", implying samples, not complete organisms. In order to study organisms, bioengineer them, and clone them, you need actual raw material to work with, along with any useful work that's been done before you. And all those samples are scientific treasures, precious stuff. Seele wouldn't be able to just order them all destroyed as soon as the harpies get sent out, either, since they don't know for a fact that they're going to succeed.

So if you went to any one of the labs Seele had been funding, you'd probably find everything necessary to generate a "god" (or god-stick), provided the technology could be brought back online. You might even find one of the Evas or Spears that didn't get finished in time.

Fair enough, but I have my doubts that a substantial amount of that stuff survived Third Impact and the chaotic aftermath. I wouldn't assume there's any stuff left, and the obvious intent of the scene, imo, is that nothing remains to build a god, even if they fucked up in that presentation.

I do not believe that she went through the CI with shogoki for Shinji's sake despite what she says in the few scenes we see her. We are talking about somebody with a direct - dare I say intimate - SEELE relationship and with a deep understanding of all the scenarios involved. You do not "help your son" by making the worst scenario come true (instrumentality successful) under any circumstance, or relay your choices to him exculpating yourself in the process (after all, you know that the traumatic experience of losing you and being left with the emotionally unstable and immature Gendo will turn Shinji into the usual, highly degenerate, indifferent and worthless self - tormented pawn he ends up being).

It was either that, or be assassinated and have absolutely no hope for Shinji's future. She has a bleak option and a hopeless option; there's no third option she could've taken that would've saved the world without crushing Shinji's fragile little soul.

(4) Tried and true trope is tried and true.

TV Tropes link? In MY Reichu-post? Oh ho ho.

[ArborVitae]

It was either that, or be assassinated and have absolutely no hope for Shinji's future. She has a bleak option and a hopeless option; there's no third option she could've taken that would've saved the world without crushing Shinji's fragile little soul.

In the series, it is explicitely said that they could have opted for another individual to do that CI. But she decided to go forth anyway. As for being assassinated, think about this: Why should SEELE kill one of their top scientists, whom they have also had a hand in raising since she was a kid, a person greatly responsible for many aspects of project E?

It does not make sense for SEELE to wipe out Yui. It does make sense for Yui to want to wipe out SEELE. The "I want Shinji to watch my sacrifice and remember" is a rather sneaky statement. Shinji is barely able to play with his g.i.joe at that age. However, all the other people understand very well and are subsequently conditioned by her action. Everything starts to become far more complex by that event.

That does not mean that she does not care for Shinji. It also means that she cares for something else in the meanwhile.

Oh, one other thing. Reichu is right.

[AyrYntake]

Mother-in-law syndrome or not, she still puts Shinji's best interests before her own. However manipulative she may be, that's all you can really ask of a mother, right?

[ArborVitae]

Mother-in-law syndrome or not, she still puts Shinji's best interests before her own. However manipulative she may be, that's all you can really ask of a mother, right?

I agree with you, however consider it also under this perspective: Without Shinji, who could pilot shogoki? The dummy plug worked once, but it worked exactly because Shinji was already in (that's my interpretation, because it does not work when he is out, neither does pilot swapping work once Shinji has been in the entry plug for several times), so there was indeed something to protect. So yes, she does look after Shinji's interests; then again at some point, his interests melt with hers in a 400% sync ratio. It is just too soon to let everybody die.

In my view of the entire NGE mythos, Yui's ghostly presence is more manipulative towards Shinji than the other characters are towards him. No matter how hard you try, you cannot defeat the dead, especially when they have all this mythos surrounding them. Thus, I have a certain degree of disbelief on whether all of her actions are based on her maternal aspects alone.

Undoubtedly, there are some seemingly flawed elements in this argument. What is conclusive however, is that when you walk the path towards either proving or disproving Yui's (unwanted?) malevolence, no matter where you start from, you tend to lean towards the evil - doer side. I think that the general consensus is that Yui, is just a tad, evil. And that is based (partially) on what happens in the end, not what she says. Because if Yui had acted by simply presenting herself to Shinji in the right moment when the harpies were eating nigoki, the ugly cetaceans would have been nothing more than sushi for shogoki.

She doesn't even try, even though shogoki is in "aware" state in the critical timeframe. Doesn't that at least indicate that she actually wants things to go the way they are already proceeding, regardless of motivation?

So yes, she undoubtedly protects Shinji while destroying anything else that could substitute her and letting decay anything else that does not need her. I still think that Yui is more "evil" than "good"; worse: I think that she cannot help it even.

Ουδέν κακόν αμιγές καλού (No evil is pure of good). May I add: and vice versa.

[Reichu]

I'm not sure what "conclusive"ness and "consensus" you speak of, ArborVitae. Have you peered into the minds of everyone here, or looked at the long, tired history of "Yui is a bitch" / "Yui's mysterioso motivations" threads? (A number of locals with opinions on the matter are not really participating in this one because they're done it all before.) And by the very nature of the matter at hand, conclusions and consensus are impossible.

Your own posts have been comprised of building a castle of assertions, that somewhat selectively integrates information and assumptions into a model that is all dark and no light, to the point of apparently dismissing offhand some of the very little "raw material" we've actually been provided on her. Where to even begin?

I'm also not sure what I was "right" about.

TV Tropes link? In MY Reichu-post? Oh ho ho.

BobBQ holds the site in high enough esteem that he liberally incorporates their trope names into his language patterns and assumes that everyone else will understand, so I figured I'd play his game.

[pablumatic]

In a situation where events are basically beyond your control, I'd say Yui did the one and only thing she could do when faced with a man-made apocalypse. That being giving her son the ultimate decision making in the process.

Sure it wasn't the best option, but it was only one available. Otherwise SEELE would have gotten exactly what they wanted and every other human including her son would have merely been true pawns swept up in their scheme. Or had she just let Shinji and Eva-01 be destroyed before Instrumentality the Angels would have gotten what they wanted. Yui was basically the catalyst for making the best out of a bad situation. And it certainly wasn't selfish giving her own son the choice, it was basically Shinji, SEELE, or the Angels who would have the final say in the matter.

I see Yui as Dr. Kevorkian. Allowing the patient to make the choice of how to die rather than letting the cancer be the final cause.

[AuraTwilight]

In the series, it is explicitely said that they could have opted for another individual to do that CI. But she decided to go forth anyway. As for being assassinated, think about this: Why should SEELE kill one of their top scientists, whom they have also had a hand in raising since she was a kid, a person greatly responsible for many aspects of project E?

Because she's out to stop them and has the ability to do so. She's a threat, and they pretty obviously had a hit on her from the context given from her conversation with Fuyutsuki. We all know she loved Shinji, and that's why she tried her best to stop Instrumentality. If there was a way to do that without hurting him so much, don't you think she would've taken it?

It does not make sense for SEELE to wipe out Yui. It does make sense for Yui to want to wipe out SEELE.

This contradictory. Why the hell would SEELE not try and kill off someone trying to stop their ultimate goal? They've done it with other people.

BobBQ holds the site in high enough esteem that he liberally incorporates their trope names into his language patterns and assumes that everyone else will understand, so I figured I'd play his game.

I just find it lulz how you do so after you ranted about the worthlessness of TVTropes when I linked to them. Lol.

[BobBQ]

BobBQ holds the site in high enough esteem that he liberally incorporates their trope names into his language patterns and assumes that everyone else will understand, so I figured I'd play his game.

I use them because cool people understand them. You need to be cooler.

[Reichu]

Aura: If you could specify the individuals you're actually quoting, that would be good.

We all know she loved Shinji, and that's why she tried her best to stop Instrumentality. If there was a way to do that without hurting him so much, don't you think she would've taken it?

By "stop Instrumentality", do you mean "after it's already started", or "before she's dived headfirst into 3I"?

This contradictory. Why the hell would SEELE not try and kill off someone trying to stop their ultimate goal?

Some folks might not be familiar with the reading of the #21' scene that's been memetically transmitted 'round these parts. ("I support your ideas, not Seele's." + "It's a simple thing to destroy people." + "But that's no reason for you to become an experimental subject." + etc. --> oh shit, blacklisted!?!)

I just find it lulz how you do so after you ranted about the worthlessness of TVTropes when I linked to them. Lol.

It's all about context, m'dear. I like the site itself, but I feel nerd-rage whenever I stumble into gratuitously false information there. (And the Eva WMG page doesn't really deserve all the links it gets.)

I use them because cool people understand them. You need to be cooler.

The shit I need to memorize for all my science courses takes precedence over hundreds of individual tropes (many scarcely different from one another), I'm sorry to say...

[ArborVitae]

I used the word "material", implying samples, not complete organisms. In order to study organisms, bioengineer them, and clone them, you need actual raw material to work with, along with any useful work that's been done before you. And all those samples are scientific treasures, precious stuff. Seele wouldn't be able to just order them all destroyed as soon as the harpies get sent out, either, since they don't know for a fact that they're going to succeed.

You wrote this to Auratwilight - by the way, quotes follow a certain format Auratwilight, please be more helpful. You were right on this one - among many other things, despite some people do not consider it evaworthy to deal with such hidden details.

I'm not sure what "conclusive"ness and "consensus" you speak of, ArborVitae. Have you peered into the minds of everyone here, or looked at the long, tired history of "Yui is a bitch" / "Yui's mysterioso motivations" threads? (A number of locals with opinions on the matter are not really participating in this one because they're done it all before.) And by the very nature of the matter at hand, conclusions and consensus are impossible.

Admittedly, I have overemphasized - and slightly misplaced - the words consensus and conclusions. Let's substitute them with the word trend - I actually am refering to a general consensus of a deductive process and not of the "arithmetic mean" of single individuals posting their own opinion. Since the appearances and background of Yui are actually limited, you can only see through the results of her actions, whatever those may be and theorize back. A conclusion does not mean that it is final or irrevocable; better to use the term trend then. I believe that there is a growing (deductive) trend towards proving Yui's (partial) malevolence. And we are not talking about comic - relief evil, but Evil that is hard to distinguish. So, I still stand by my actual statement:

In my view of the entire NGE mythos, Yui's ghostly presence is more manipulative towards Shinji than the other characters are towards him.

She doesn't even try, even though shogoki is in "aware" state in the critical timeframe. Doesn't that at least indicate that she actually wants things to go the way they are already proceeding, regardless of motivation?

A mother's love is by definition unconditional and always aiming for the best even when things have reached pitch black, she does not wait for pitch black to pass or handle the candle to somebody who does not know how to light it up. Yui does not even make an attempt in at least two occasions (turning the cetaceans into sushi or dismembering GNR before she can start resonating), but does boom out of GNR's handsome crimson eye (while the dismemberment sequence takes its toll) after everything has been concluded. That's at least one cardinal point because she is faced with at least two subsequent what - ifs and she does nothing despite as shogoki, she has both fruits. You also state yourself of her being a fruitbasket in another post, in another thread:

The S2 Engine is pretty unambiguous, since Seele moan about Eva-01 having become a “god” right after she eats it, and Fuyutsuki later says that Eva-01 is a “god” on account of having both fruits. S2 Engine = FoL is also stated in the CI that everyone loves so much.

It is because she does nothing after having done enough to demonstrate that she can do something, that I can't see her as light in a clear sky. Of course, I never claim to be right or wrong, impose my opinions or anything; I only aim for coherence in whatever can be used as material for deduction. Only Anno is right, it is his own fictional universe, adapted and simplified for obvious reasons. He is the bearer of all fruits after all.

[Reichu]

My own take on things is that Yui is morally ambiguous; words like "malevolent" and "evil" are grotesque simplifications and do not do justice to the situation or her character in the slightest. The very way that she is portrayed to us, as a woman lacking the slightest sign of putting on airs, makes it imperative to take everything that we are shown very seriously in forming an integrated view of her. Something must not be dismissed because you perceive there to be a contradiction -- at least, not without exploring all the possibilities.

Two ideas one should keep in mind when giving Yui's character a go:
- The human character lends itself to paradox remarkably well. (An apparent contradiction is not really a contradiction at all.)
- Life often places individuals into dilemmas. (Damned if you do, damned if you don't. You're open to harsh judgment later no matter which option you pick, but that's the nature of the game...)

@ "Fruit basket": I'll have to remember that one. :)

[NemZ]

I'm thinking Carl Horn explained it best in another post (can't find it now) where he equated Yui to a progressive, big-picture thinker who wants to make everything better but completely looses track of the costs that other people will have to pay to attain this goal. She also never bothers to really ask anyone if this better world is what they want, just assuming that she knows best how other people should live their lives and thus has no problem making their choices for them.

Sacrificing herself to 01 is kinda noble, but the way in which she does it seems almost intentionally designed to screw Gendo and Shinji up as much as possible. In order for either of them to come away with the same positive spin she apparantly intended for this moment she would have been required to explain it first, asked Fuyutsuki to explain it later, or at the very least leave a damned note. No, she's guilty here of the same issue that the rest of her family has: assuming everyone else feels the same way she does.

It's obvious that she wants to keep Shinji safe, but she seems impenetrably dense when it comes to helping him protect the people that matter to him, the people who are at least making an attempt to fill the void she left in him. She treats him like an object, completely ignoring his wishes and individuality. If she really cared, perhaps she might have bothered to discuss the whole instrumentality thing with him while it was going on, rather than waiting until it was over to offer vague platitudes about everything being fine... as she was backpedaling for the nearest exit, no less.

[AyrYntake]

Sure sounds like something my mum would do. I guess she did make a few assumptions on the way, but being honest about this I think the overriding view that Instrumentality should be stopped is the highest priority of all, which (from her viewpoint, at least) justifies preventing it no matter what.
What I'm trying to say here is that in a situation like this she runs the risk of getting Shinji killed if she tries to put up a resistance of ANY sort. In order to keep him safe, even if it means ignoring his emotional needs and treating him like an object, it's a price she's willing to pay. Whenever it's possible for her to contact him inside the entry plug she always makes an attempt to ease his burden, to heal the rift that she's created within him--to the extent that Shinji himself wanted to stay merged inside at one point--but look at it pragmatically and you'll see that the real world just HAS to take precedence over his spiritual needs, for the time being at least.
As for her leaving, well, that's when she finally hands over the decision-making to Shinji, in my opinion. It's not only until the threat of SEELE has been removed that she can leave him to his own devices wthout anyone to look after him, though.

[ArborVitae]

My own take on things is that Yui is morally ambiguous; words like "malevolent" and "evil" are grotesque simplifications and do not do justice to the situation or her character in the slightest. The very way that she is portrayed to us, as a woman lacking the slightest sign of putting on airs, makes it imperative to take everything that we are shown very seriously in forming an integrated view of her. Something must not be dismissed because you perceive there to be a contradiction -- at least, not without exploring all the possibilities.

Two ideas one should keep in mind when giving Yui's character a go:
- The human character lends itself to paradox remarkably well. (An apparent contradiction is not really a contradiction at all.)
- Life often places individuals into dilemmas. (Damned if you do, damned if you don't. You're open to harsh judgment later no matter which option you pick, but that's the nature of the game...)

@ "Fruit basket": I'll have to remember that one. :)

First, I agree with your positions within the incarnations of Yui I believe you are definining them for. Second I always try to use "" whenever I use the terms evil, good, malevolent, benevolent, but at times I let things write themselves. But I also see what you mean by the use of certain terms.

It is an interesting point you make, about Yui's ambiguous morality. After her absorption into shogoki and her eventual transsubstantiatio, I would argue on whether she is actually "sort of" amoral or not (I hope that other readers do not confuse with immoral), however in the same sense of amorality for someone who has transcended morality's raison d'etre. She is not human anymore and she cannot perceive neither time or existance within it in the same way others do. Her (heideggerian) Dasein is located on another level and therefore she cannot just be judged by the measure of a human Dasein, at least in the case of the EoE events. However, I would tend to assume that at the moment of her CE with shogoki she is an amoralist (with amorality defined, in this case, within the human level of existance). I would also accept that from that point on, even the way she sees her own position in the big player picture changes. A lot of things change post-CE for her, others change more after the 400% event actions and others totally change during EoE events. Yui is definitely the most complex ghostly presence in NGE ever.

This is why I theorize back from her actions alone, and not from what she is just shown to say. For example, pre-CE Yui may be more "good", or even definitely "good". Post - 400%, In - EoE Yui is "bad" out of result. But undefined in tangible (did I just use tang-?) emotional or practical terms. Perhaps an eventual thread of how Instrumentality could have been avoided despite Shinji being less worthy than orange goo in the critical timeframe. I would argue on whether EoE Yui subscribes to a totally deterministic view of the universe, for which she does not care due to her own level of existance.

Good and Evil are themselves grotesque oversimplifications of an unreachable, indomable and relentlessly cynical absolute truth. What hurts our interests could be tagged as "evil" and what does not hurt them as "good", but the fundamental question of what is "is", will always remain.

A comparison with Alan Moore's Dr. Manhattan from the Watchmen on particular situations could proove more than stimulating.

offtopic: Mr. Tines : the einstein's cross thing deserves major kudos. MAJOR.
intopic: AyrNtake 's and NemZ's replies to the previous post constitute paths through which I have wandered my reasoning as well.

Always a pleasure Reichu

[AyrYntake]

Who's AyrNtake?

[GAP]

So Yui is just "Yui", neither "bad" nor "good" but simply "Yui". So in a sense, I don't believe did Yui actually do anything "wrong" or "Evil" but simply did what she believed is "right" course of action.

[AuraTwilight]

By "stop Instrumentality", do you mean "after it's already started", or "before she's dived headfirst into 3I"?

I mean when she made moves to convince Shinji to make the decision that stopped Instrumentality. As in when it stopped happening and undid itself.

It's all about context, m'dear. I like the site itself, but I feel nerd-rage whenever I stumble into gratuitously false information there. (And the Eva WMG page doesn't really deserve all the links it gets.)

As I've told you before, WMG pages are for stuff that's so blatantly off the wall it's obviously wrong, but still in the realm of plausible fan speculation, such as "dude, I bet Shinji created all those spin-off universes while in Instrumentality." "DUde, no, he made ALL universes, INCLYDING OUR OWN!" "Duuuuude!"

And the usage of tropes on it is accurate. Who cares if they get certain facts wrong? That's not the site's job or purpose.

It is because she does nothing after having done enough to demonstrate that she can do something, that I can't see her as light in a clear sky.

What was she going to do, a splode Lilith while she was down there? That's a good way to prompt SEELE to bomb the place down and get everyone assassinated a la End of Eva.

It's obvious that she wants to keep Shinji safe, but she seems impenetrably dense when it comes to helping him protect the people that matter to him, the people who are at least making an attempt to fill the void she left in him. She treats him like an object, completely ignoring his wishes and individuality. If she really cared, perhaps she might have bothered to discuss the whole instrumentality thing with him while it was going on, rather than waiting until it was over to offer vague platitudes about everything being fine... as she was backpedaling for the nearest exit, no less.

Have you considered that might not have been an option? She might not have any clue who Shinji does and doesn't care about, as the only looks she gets into his mind during the series are particularly negative, and it seems apparent she's not actually able to talk to Shinji in such a powerful manner than in instrumentality. Sending vague feelings of motherly love is probably a lot easier than explaining the entire big picture to Shinji so he can make an informed decision.

[Sailor Star Dust]

Sending vague feelings of motherly love is probably a lot easier than explaining the entire big picture to Shinji so he can make an informed decision.

Yes.

She might not have any clue who Shinji does and doesn't care about, as the only looks she gets into his mind during the series are particularly negative,

I thought as much, myself.

[NemZ]

I mean when she made moves to convince Shinji to make the decision that stopped Instrumentality. As in when it stopped happening and undid itself.

did what now?

What was she going to do, a splode Lilith while she was down there? That's a good way to prompt SEELE to bomb the place down and get everyone assassinated a la End of Eva.

Actually, that would probably be the easiest way to stop it. Go back down to TD after Kaworu is destroyed and most folks have left the building then self destruct, getting rid of the only two viable lilith replacements in anybody's 3I plans.

[slothen]

So Yui is just "Yui", neither "bad" nor "good" but simply "Yui". So in a sense, I don't believe did Yui actually do anything "wrong" or "Evil" but simply did what she believed is "right" course of action.

So you're saying she may as well be a force of nature: her motivations inscrutable, her actions inevitable, and our attempts to discern or judge are ultimately pointless?

Its easy to say this, given the role she plays in the story and the relatively limited insight we get into her world and her mind.