Once more with feeling -- Yui is an evil bitch

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Postby Cody MacArthur Fett » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:27 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote:How that hook up happened is one of the biggest blanks in the whole series. I think you're on the wrong track with the abusive angle though, as I actually have a really hard time seeing Gendo as anything other than completely whipped when it comes to Yui. I picture it as the sort of relationship where she knew she'd always win any argument and didn't really see the point in having them, instead simply not informing him of anything he might try to object to or only talking about when it's too late to change... lots of flabbergasted Gendo moments when he simply has no options and thus can only rage ineffectually for a while before succumbing to the inevitable.

I think in Gendo Yui saw the fulfillment of the 'bad boy' fantasy, an arrogant jerkass predator of a man who was utterly tamed when it came to her and only her. Gendo instead met this fascinating creature whose "soft power" he couldn't overcome nor bring himself to view as a threat, and thus didn't know what the hell to do with her other than join her mad quest.

[/fanwank]

That's actually a pretty good theory.

As for Yui. Well, her plan basically was to merge with Unit-01, tang the world, absorb the rest of humanity into Unit-01, and then zip off into space to exist as some sort of testament to humanity's existence, presumably while living in some sort of virtual reality till Unit-01 inevitably gets torn apart by the various hazards in space. . . . So yeah, she's completely out of her mind. She might have some sort of excuse going in that she was most likely raised to believe that humanity is doomed -- her father being a top ranking member of Seele, after all -- but that coupled with the fact that she was willing to abandon her child without a second thought? I can only come to the conclusion that she's completely insane.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:48 pm

Do we even have any confirmation or proof that Yui could leave Eva-01? If Adam and Lilith couldn't return from the LCL Sea/reform post-3I, it's possible that Yui couldn't as well since it's implied Eva-01 has the same god status of Adam and Lilith by the film's end.

If people want to think Yui's a crazy bitch, that's their deal, but the problem with that approach is we really don't have all the facts about her (for the record, I don't necessarily think Yui's a saint--I just think she was simply doing what she could given the situation).

Although, Nemz's fanwank of why Yui and Gendo would have interest in each other is appealing.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:24 pm

I really, really don't think Yui had a choice in leaving the Earth. She can't leave the Eva, and she froze everything else that was Angelic in nature to keep humanity from fucking with it. If she stayed behind, all this shit could happen all over again.

I mean, really, what can an Evangelion really do to "rebuild" things? It's only purpose is war and killing all humanity in a religious ceremony.

As for why she brought Shinji to the Contact Experiment, I figured she wanted him to know that she'd be inside the Eva and thus always able to protect and watch over him. She didn't expect him to go traumatized and repress the memory.

Stupid? Totally. Evil bitch? Not really.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:41 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:Do we even have any confirmation or proof that Yui could leave Eva-01? If Adam and Lilith couldn't return from the LCL Sea/reform post-3I, it's possible that Yui couldn't as well since it's implied Eva-01 has the same god status of Adam and Lilith by the film's end.


I think it's less that Adam and Lilith can't and more that they won't. Whether this is because they think it's inappropriate or simply because they don't care to is unclear.

If people want to think Yui's a crazy bitch, that's their deal, but the problem with that approach is we really don't have all the facts about her (for the record, I don't necessarily think Yui's a saint--I just think she was simply doing what she could given the situation).


Again, she abandoned her child. That point is irrefutable. Whether or not she could leave Unit 01 isn't even the point; she didn't have to leave Earth, and she didn't have to leave Shinji. But she did. Whether or not you call that crazy bitch status is up to you, but it's bugfuck insane regardless.

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:I really, really don't think Yui had a choice in leaving the Earth. She can't leave the Eva, and she froze everything else that was Angelic in nature to keep humanity from fucking with it. If she stayed behind, all this shit could happen all over again.


Why do you say she can't leave the Eva? Are you seriously suggesting that Lilith can cheerfully split and recombine her soul at will, Tang three billion people at once, do wonky things with the geofront, rape the hell out of the MP Evas, and do all the other crazy insane shit she did in EoE but can't separate Yui from Unit 01 (despite the fact that Yui is just another human soul, and this after bringing her into Instrumentality)? It doesn't seem likely.

Stupid? Totally. Evil bitch? Not really.


Stupid, arrogant, myopic, thoughtless, mentally unbalanced...put it all together and it amounts to the same thing.

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Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:42 pm

This thread and Panther-man's behavior in general have empirically and scientifically led me to the conclusion represented in this tidy little analogy:

Bagheera:Yui::NemZ:EoE!Shinji


You don't want to be like NemZ hatin' on EoE!Shinji... DO you, Panther-man? :shifty:

gwern's described Yui as a cipher (not here; comments on some blog I stumbled across in a Google), and this is probably true to an extent. So much is untold that people look in and fill the blanks in with themselves and/or their worldview, giving emphasis to particular items or considerations in the process.

Now, in my opinion, Yui is such a deliciously ambiguous and inscrutable character that "evil bitch" smacks of dismissal and analytical laziness, and doesn't do her much justice whatever. (Asuka fans might feel similarly when their favorite character is frequently branded various varieties of "bitch" as well...) The "insane" smear (from Cody's post) falls in the same ballpark. This is Evangelion, which pulls no punches when it comes to presenting humans as flawed creatures with big communication issues. "Evil" isn't a very useful word for our toolbox here. And "insane" can only be safely applied to the crazy lady who throttles and decapitates dolls.

While you may well be quite comfortable in your "what a stupid, arrogant, myopic, thoughtless, mentally unbalanced, evil bitch" assessment and feel no desire to move from it, Panther-man, I'm not convinced you're really considering the big picture and I think you can possibly "do better". Not necessarily love Yui, or anything, the way *I* love her, SWOON~, just... come to better terms with her, I suppose. :tongue: So instead of taking a NemZ-ish stand against the character, why not gradually (re)appraise the various Yui analyses around these parts that don't necessarily jibe with you?

(I say much of this because I've been quite vocal in the past about my "hatred" for characters that I wasn't fully comfortable with, in the sense they persistently hit certain nerves and I couldn't / refused to logically and compassionately consider them in their entirety. It took some time and deliberate effort to get over.)
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:22 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:This thread and Panther-man's behavior in general have empirically and scientifically led me to the conclusion represented in this tidy little analogy:

Bagheera:Yui::NemZ:EoE!Shinji


You don't want to be like NemZ hatin' on EoE!Shinji... DO you, Panther-man? :shifty:


Urk. Um...ah...

No.

But in fairness, I have conceded that most of it can be explained away. It's mostly just the leaving at the end that I have a real issue with.

Now, in my opinion, Yui is such a deliciously ambiguous and inscrutable character that "evil bitch" smacks of dismissal and analytical laziness, and doesn't do her much justice whatever. (Asuka fans might feel similarly when their favorite character is frequently branded various varieties of "bitch" as well...)


[cough]

Asuka is a bitch. Hardcore. The reason her character works is not because she's not really a bitch, but rather because she has very good reasons for being a bitch, and is successfully deconstructed as such by the time the show's over. Part of the strength of the movie's ending, IMO, is that we're left wondering if (hoping that) she learned something from her experiences and is now willing to act and be treated like a person instead of a mask or a caricature.

Now, if she's dismissed as a bitch and thenceforth ignored I'd have issues with that, but I have no problem with calling her what she is. There's just more to it than that.

(and yes, I get the parallel.)

The "insane" smear (from Cody's post) falls in the same ballpark. This is Evangelion, which pulls no punches when it comes to presenting humans as flawed creatures with big communication issues. "Evil" isn't a very useful word for our toolbox here. And "insane" can only be safely applied to the crazy lady who throttles and decapitates dolls.


I'm not so sure. It takes a certain amount of dysfunctionality to actually want to spend eternity wandering space alone in a giant robot, no?

While you may well be quite comfortable in your "what a stupid, arrogant, myopic, thoughtless, mentally unbalanced, evil bitch" assessment and feel no desire to move from it, Panther-man, I'm not convinced you're really considering the big picture and I think you can possibly "do better". Not necessarily love Yui, or anything, the way *I* love her, SWOON~, just... come to better terms with her, I suppose. :tongue: So instead of taking a NemZ-ish stand against the character, why not gradually (re)appraise the various Yui analyses around these parts that don't necessarily jibe with you?


I am willing to be convinced, if for no other reason than that you have properly used the term "jibe". I hatehatehateHATE seeing "jive" in that spot.

(I say much of this because I've been quite vocal in the past about my "hatred" for characters that I wasn't fully comfortable with, in the sense they persistently hit certain nerves and I couldn't / refused to logically and compassionately consider them in their entirety. It took some time and deliberate effort to get over.)


I am not irrational. I am willing to be convinced. Just explain/help me come to terms with that final decision and we'll be good.

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Postby NemZ » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:23 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:You don't want to be like NemZ hatin' on EoE!Shinji... DO you, Panther-man? :shifty:


When did my perfectly rational (if apparently not convincing to anyone else) reasons for hating the way Shinji is portrayed in EoE become a cautionary tale? Not cool. :hmph:
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:27 pm

View Original PostNemZ wrote::hmph:


Heh. You're just mad 'cause she still has faith in me. :tongue:

Edit: And to answer your question, because they show an appalling lack of compassion for someone in Shinji's situation, which is especially disappointing given your own experiences. You can relate to him more than most, but instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt and sympathizing with him you condemn him. It's disheartening. And it's not because I don't understand where you're coming from, because I do (kinda). It's just frustrating, that's all.

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Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:17 pm

Sorry for shitting out a rambling wall of text. It'd take more time than I have right now to edit it down, and make sure I actually hit all the points I wanted to. -o-;

To be honest, Yui's decision to float off at the end has been a hard point for me as well, but in a different sort of way. That is, I have difficulty reconciling the usual explanation -- that she is leaving Earth to simply float in space for all eternity and have her soul seared by the inferno of ultimate loneliness -- with pretty much everything. I suppose I find it more thematically/narratively sound, and much more psychologically comforting, if she's leaving to "continue the cycle", as opposed to simply let it end with her.

So, essentially, I am biased toward wanting to think that Yui has taken it upon herself to save humanity both in the short-term -- i.e., prevent Seele from turning everyone on Earth into a Hive Mind -- and in the long-term, that is, become something capable of creating another humanity long after our own inevitable extinction. [This also allows me to make my own sense of Fuyutsuki's line, "mankind has existed to create Eva": in the sense that an organism exists solely to propagate itself, and in keeping with "human family tradition", our humanity existed solely to create a being who will propagate another form of us, long after we're gone.]

Since Yui has had this two-pronged mission from early on, embarking on her cosmic journey directly after Third Impact is only logical, as she has effectively fulfilled her purpose on Earth and done what she set out to do. People have been given rein over their own fates once again, and there is no longer any need for gods, including herself.

From the short-term perspective with which most people view the universe, leaving her son and everyone else with Earth in such a state is direly cruel, and can certainly motivate unbridled hate. But I think one of the things that makes Yui interesting is that she really isn't a normal person. I don't been that in a pejorative sense; even before she became an Eva -- which would most likely affect one's sense of time and priority quite a bit -- she's probably never been able to look at the world in the way an ordinary person would.

She was born as one of the elite and privileged. She's been subject to privileged and doubtless highly troubling information from early on. On the most basic level, Yui seems to be extremely benevolent and compassionate; that is, she has identified certain things as precious and worth saving that most well-intentioned and wholesome people would. For example, the right of people to live as individuals and pursue happiness without worrying about a bunch of old farts telling them that they all suck and don't deserve that chance.

Yui's deep love for humanity might also extend to the desire to see it exist even after the death of Earth and our Sun.

So consider, this person with nothing but compassion and a desire to protect what's most important. And consider what she is up against. A global cabal, and a rapidly ticking clock. On a personal level, she faces a conflict between the desire to simply escape from the curse of Seele and indulge in a comforting fantasy of ultimate normalcy -- getting hitched and having kids -- and acting upon the moral imperative to do something, ANYthing, to prevent the ultimate tragedy. Yui has to choose between the desire for intimacy and deep personal connections in her life -- expressing love for humanity one-on-one -- and in the desire to put her universal love for humanity into real, tangible action, because she has the burden of knowing that if she doesn't do the latter, nobody will be able to enjoy the former.

You've probably heard all this already. Where you really want answers, I can't exactly help, since Yui is and always will be inscrutable to some level. But, the best I can tell you is that she probably skewed a shitty situation as much as she could so that people would come to understand one another for the first time (HIP) and then be freed to march forward and pave the road for themselves. Of course, all of her ideals sound ridiculously naive and inane if you try to apply them realistically to a post-apocalyptic world, but as long as you're in sci-fi, humanity can recover from any setback. :3

And on that note, certain aspects of the ending and Yui's departure are a giant metaphor for mommy walking off and letting her boy deal with all the shit in the world without her magically showing up and making everything better. Or something.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:41 pm

View Original PostReichu wrote:You've probably heard all this already. Where you really want answers, I can't exactly help, since Yui is and always will be inscrutable to some level. But, the best I can tell you is that she probably skewed a shitty situation as much as she could so that people would come to understand one another for the first time (HIP) and then be freed to march forward and pave the road for themselves. Of course, all of her ideals sound ridiculously naive and inane if you try to apply them realistically to a post-apocalyptic world, but as long as you're in sci-fi, humanity can recover from any setback. :3


No, that's not it. I don't care about the reality of it. I don't care about the particulars of a post-apocalyptic world, or SF, or any of that. What I care about...

Okay, look. She abandoned her kid. Even if you're forced to weigh humanity in the balance against the fate of your kid, you choose your kid. You can't do that, of course, but that's what you feel you ought to do. Any parent who doesn't feel that is monstrous. And when you do have a choice, well...

Unit 01 isn't going anywhere. Yui doesn't have to leave it if she doesn't want to (though I wonder if she couldn't abandon it and then join with it again later on down the line, but that's neither here nor there). But she shouldn't have left. Her son was in a terrible place mentally, and facing a pretty damn bleak future, and she left. I'm not talking about logic, or reality, or rational argument here. I'm talking about basic, nuts and bolts bare-bones humanity.

It would be different if she had to choose between Shinji and humanity, but she didn't. She embarked on a plan that would take eons to complete, and wasn't willing to wait around long enough to ensure that her son would be okay. I can't relate to that on a fundamental level. It's not judgment -- it's just flatly incomprehensible to me. A mother just doesn't do that to her child unless something's wrong with her (and this is particularly true when the mother's someone as empathetic and genuinely caring as Yui appeared to be).

And it doesn't fit the rest of what we've seen of her, even during EoE. She doesn't come across as disturbed or unstable in the least. She seems to care for Shinji quite a bit. And yet, despite that...

It's like the mother of all plot holes, really. It just doesn't fit.

And on that note, certain aspects of the ending and Yui's departure are a giant metaphor for mommy walking off and letting her boy deal with all the shit in the world without her magically showing up and making everything better. Or something.


Well, sure. Anno had to do that, what with all of the leaving the womb business and all. I don't fault him for it at all. I just wish he'd given Yui something more immediately compelling to force her to take such a drastic step. As is I can only conclude that, available evidence to the contrary, Yui was, in fact, insane. Because if you ask any parent alive today (at least, any well-adjusted parent) to choose between their child and humanity and they'll think long and hard before going with the latter (and they'll probably hate themselves if they do). If you ask them to choose between their child and their ideals the ideals will lost most every time.

(I know it's not always that simple, but still...)

Sorry to keep harping on this; I know it's getting (has gotten) repetitive. But it's such a core, fundamental point that I can't seem to let it go. -o-;

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Postby Azathoth » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:07 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:If you ask them to choose between their child and their ideals the ideals will lost most every time.


Yeah. Unlike most people, Yui actually believes in her ideals to the extent that she'll sacrifice for them, rather than simply tossing them around to provide a sense of order for her world; this is what makes her appear insane (same could be said of Gendou, but his ideals are rather more petty than hers).

Honestly though, Shinji wants her to leave - or at least, being Shinji, he says that he wouldn't mind her leaving. I'd say that he's telling the truth, and that Yui herself recognized that she wouldn't do a lot of good to him. She barely knows the kid, having absented herself for most of his life and only recently made a mind-rapey re-entrance into it. Moreover, she's directly responsible for the mess his life has been and the hell of the last few hours of film; it's honestly surprising to me that Shinji is as civil to her as he is. Even if she was inclined to help and he was inclined to allow her, I don't know what she could even do. It's not just a metaphor for stepping clear of your protective mother-image, but rather that Shinji has now put himself into a situation in which his mother really is not able to protect him. What's she going to do for him in post-apocalyptic Earth, his laundry?
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:14 am

View Original PostAzathoth wrote:Honestly though, Shinji wants her to leave - or at least, being Shinji, he says that he wouldn't mind her leaving. I'd say that he's telling the truth, and that Yui herself recognized that she wouldn't do a lot of good to him. She barely knows the kid, having absented herself for most of his life and only recently made a mind-rapey re-entrance into it. Moreover, she's directly responsible for the mess his life has been and the hell of the last few hours of film; it's honestly surprising to me that Shinji is as civil to her as he is. Even if she was inclined to help and he was inclined to allow her, I don't know what she could even do. It's not just a metaphor for stepping clear of your protective mother-image, but rather that Shinji has now put himself into a situation in which his mother really is not able to protect him. What's she going to do for him in post-apocalyptic Earth, his laundry?


Give him human contact? Talk to him so he doesn't go insane from loneliness? Give him a hand with his kinda-sorta-not-really girlfriend who like as not hates his guts and is even more messed up than he is? Help him with the basics of survival?

No matter what she does in that situation, it's better than leaving him alone. It's not like things can get all that much worse for him.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:03 am

I can't help you with your commitment to the idea that any parent who chooses humanity over their child is nuts (or evil, or whatever). Plus, I'm not necessarily convinced Yui did that, as such. All those outside observers with their burdensome codes of ethics aside, how did mother and son work things out between themselves?

The scene where they part ways doesn't really suggest that Shinji feels abandoned. Yui even asks him if he'll be alright. Saying goodbye is sad, sure. But Shinji's ready to go back out there and think his life over and kick some ass. He doesn't need mommy to hold his hand.

Of course, when it comes to the epilogue and what the fuck we're supposed to take from it, that's a very... personal thing.

I'm probably with Azathoth in that having a mom the size of a skyscraper around -- who is partially responsible for the world being shit, and perhaps completely responsible for you still being a human meatsack and having the freedom to make something of that shit, no less... :bigeyes: -- wouldn't have necessarily made things any better. And since Yui was a transcendental being at the time she left, she probably knew this.

(Feel free to experiment with scenarios if you like, though... I'm getting stuff that is either flat-out comedic -- "My Giant Mom & Me!: Living in the Anti-Eden" -- or ...weird, like people coming back and treating Eva-01 as a fearsome deity of life and death who must be prayed to and appeased with human sacrifices.)

Not to mention, I think getting a still-active god / armageddon machine off that rock sooner rather than later was a rather prudent move.
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Postby Azathoth » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:16 am

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Give him human contact?


At this stage I'm not convinced Yui's "humanity" has much more in common with Shinji's than Lilith's "humanity" does - and she at least was his friend, or tried to be. Yui is, as you've noted, at least partially divorced from the kind of behavior we'd normally expect from a human.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Talk to him so he doesn't go insane from loneliness?


About what? "Say, remember that time I sat by and made you watch helplessly while that girl you liked got eaten alive? I know, too bad. But hey, I showed the world the sixth path and she came back to life so I guess it's all good, amirite kiddo? Say, you ever thought about a career in research? I hear it's good for finding drunken assholes with delusions of grandeur to embark on uncomfortable relationships with."

Alternatively, Yui clearly doesn't hold too high an opinion of the perils of loneliness since she's declared her intent to endure it until the heat death of the universe.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Give him a hand with his kinda-sorta-not-really girlfriend who like as not hates his guts and is even more messed up than he is?


If there's one person in the show who's utterly unqualified to manage someone else's romantic relationships - well okay it's probably someone else. But I wouldn't ask my mother for relationship advice if the husband she cheerfully summed up as "a nice man once you get to know him" had turned out to be a near-psychotic hyperdependent manwhore. As it stands there is nobody alive who knows Asuka better than Shinji does, if he can't maintain amicable terms with her on his own merits then I don't think it's going to work out anyway.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Help him with the basics of survival?


The hell would she know about this? She's a biologist-deity, not Bear fucking Grylls.

View Original PostBagheera wrote:No matter what she does in that situation, it's better than leaving him alone. It's not like things can get all that much worse for him.


You're free to that opinion I guess, but what I learned from Eva, myself, is that things can always get worse and that's true twice over when giant robots are involved.
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:20 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:I can't help you with your commitment to the idea that any parent who chooses humanity over their child is nuts (or evil, or whatever). Plus, I'm not necessarily convinced Yui did that, as such. All those outside observers with their burdensome codes of ethics aside, how did mother and son work things out between themselves?

The scene where they part ways doesn't really suggest that Shinji feels abandoned. Yui even asks him if he'll be alright. Saying goodbye is sad, sure. But Shinji's ready to go back out there and think his life over and kick some ass. He doesn't need mommy to hold his hand.


Wait, hold up. After what Shinji's been through would you honestly trust anything he says? Yes, they were still in Instrumentality, but c'mon...he's a 14-year-old kid who's been traumatized, betrayed, and abandoned many times over. He'll say anything mommy wants to hear at this point just so someone tells him everything will be alright.

It's not about mommy holding his hand, it's about sticking with your family in times of need. Parents are important even after we grow up; this is particularly true during times of crisis. I can't think of a better example of such than what we see at the end of EoE.

Of course, when it comes to the epilogue and what the fuck we're supposed to take from it, that's a very... personal thing.


Sure.

I'm probably with Azathoth in that having a mom the size of a skyscraper around -- who is partially responsible for the world being shit, and perhaps completely responsible for you still being a human meatsack and having the freedom to make something of that shit, no less... :bigeyes: -- wouldn't have necessarily made things any better. And since Yui was a transcendental being at the time she left, she probably knew this.


Right, but we still haven't established that she couldn't go back to being Yui. If she couldn't, and if Shinji really was okay with her leaving, and if she legitimately felt she couldn't help but do more harm than good...then okay, whatever. But that's a lot of ifs.

(and, in contrast to what I said above, we have precedent for Instrumentality making people surprisingly lucid. Asuka should have been incoherent, if not catatonic, after her death, but there she was on the Hell Train yelling at Shinji like it was Tuesday. So, who knows.)

(Feel free to experiment with scenarios if you like, though... I'm getting stuff that is either flat-out comedic -- "My Giant Mom & Me!: Living in the Anti-Eden" -- or ...weird, like people coming back and treating Eva-01 as a fearsome deity of life and death who must be prayed to and appeased with human sacrifices.)


Eh, I was going with "Yui comes back and helps make things easier for everyone else, placing priority on folks like Misato who can help her son." She'd probably see if she could salvage something from Unit 02, both due to pangs of guilt and a need to help Asuka (gotta keep your boy's girl happy, even if she is a screaming harpy).

I also like the idea of abandoning Unit 01 somewhere until she can get civilization back on track, whereupon she'll repeat the contact experiment and leave once everything's settled. The plan must go on, after all.

Not to mention, I think getting a still-active god / armageddon machine off that rock sooner rather than later was a rather prudent move.


Meh. It's harmless without Lilith (for sufficiently limited definitions of "harmless").

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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:37 am

Panther-man: For now, I will deny my intense desire to continue attempting to fumigate your cold black heart with my incendiary compassion for Yui-sama, and instead post an original cartoon with shoddy production values that does not contribute to the conversation whatsoever.

Image
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Postby Bagheera » Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:46 am

View Original PostReichu wrote:Panther-man: For now, I will deny my intense desire to continue attempting to fumigate your cold black heart with my incendiary compassion for Yui-sama, and instead post an original cartoon with shoddy production values that does not contribute to the conversation whatsoever.


But it made me laugh. :)

And my heart is not cold! I am a connoisseur of fine A/S fanfic! I find it difficult to appreciate stories that do not have happy endings! I am all about the warm fuzzies! My cockles are filled with warmth and happiness!

Just...not toward Yui.

[cough]

:toothy:

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:58 am

Going through the past nights' posts, I see Yui going through much the same path as Gendo, just a few steps behind, as we re-analyse and re-evaluate them.

Both are fanatics, but each following a much more esoteric creed than normally gets attached to that word -- as opposed to SEELE, who are pretty much the standard model. And we're in the position of "He's a bastard, but at least he's our bastard." for both of them.

For Yui, even in the dualist world of NGE -- well, people can change over a decade; and when you're installed on alien wetware that's usually hung up in a cupboard somewhere for most of that time, an alienating change is not something unexpected (after all, we see no real sign that Fuyutsuki's new research student was into om-nom-nomming the hearts out of fresh prey). And we can't really tell what urges and imperatives come upon her in her final state -- staying at home might be much the same thing as staying at seas and not swimming upstream for salmon in their season.

Shinji meanwhile -- well, part of the underlying allegory is about severing those apron strings. He's of an age that through much of history has been that of manhood (and into living memory in the West as an age at which most people went out into the adult world of work) -- well time to start looking outwards instead.

And then depending how you read that final scene -- in the orthodoxy of "we fixed the ravages of second impact, we'll fix this" then back to life as normal, Yui hanging around would be no help. And in the darker reading -- well, he's made his choice, as has everyone else. He is his own man now, whatever comes.
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Postby Legendary » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:17 am

I believe Bagheera has made it clear that the symbolism of severing the apron strings is noted. But symbolism is not that by which we judge characters: too many evil characters are surrounded by connotations of light and divinity. We judge them by their actions and motivations as if they were real people whose lives weren't dictated for them; as if they don't know they're being symbolic and just know they're being alive.

By that standard, Yui abandoned Shinji to hell, no matter what you think happens after 3I. The time he spent between her leaving and Asuka arriving is hellish in and of itself, and without drastic changes, things are going to get worse now that there's someone to misunderstand too.

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Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:35 am

Well, if it's going to be this way, then I have no choice... I've always wanted to do one of these.

Yui satisfying expectations

(Are Az, Tines, and I essentially on the same page? I'm not sure about anything right now. I need some real sleep.)
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