Once more with feeling -- Yui is an evil bitch

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Postby esselfortium » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:11 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Gendo was who he was because Yui did her silly experiment 10 years prior.

Actually, based on the few snippets we see of young Gendo, we can safely rest with the assurance that he was always a manipulative antisocial jerk.

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Postby Trajan » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:28 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Actually, based on the few snippets we see of young Gendo, we can safely rest with the assurance that he was always a manipulative antisocial jerk.


Yeah, except that experiment turned that behavior up to eleven.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:15 pm

Also, it's implied that Yui went into the Eva when she did because she was going to be assassinated. Either way Gendo and Shinji were going to be fucked up; atleast this way she continues to exist and has a chance to, you know, prevent the extinction of all life on the planet.

She saw a possibility to save her son's life that required LEAVING his life. The fact that she could selflessly make such a choice for him speaks well of her, if anything.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:28 pm

View Original PostAuraTwilight wrote:Also, it's implied that Yui went into the Eva when she did because she was going to be assassinated. Either way Gendo and Shinji were going to be fucked up; atleast this way she continues to exist and has a chance to, you know, prevent the extinction of all life on the planet.

She saw a possibility to save her son's life that required LEAVING his life. The fact that she could selflessly make such a choice for him speaks well of her, if anything.


You can sell that for the contact experiment. You can't sell it for her decision to leave him stuck in a post apocalyptic nightmare world while she floats around in space for all eternity.

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Postby CyberXIII » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:38 pm

Nor can you sell that for why she brought him there to watch Eva-01 eat her, nor why she didn't bother to tell Gendo.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:52 pm

View Original PostCyberXIII wrote:Nor can you sell that for why she brought him there to watch Eva-01 eat her, nor why she didn't bother to tell Gendo.


True. No one else brought their kids to NERV while testing was going on (or any other time that I could see, for that matter), and Gendo was her partner in crime. Seeing as how he was the love of her life you'd think she'd give him a heads up.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:12 pm

It's implied in 21' and 26' that Yui only told Fuyutsuki of her plans to enter Eva-01 because all three of them (Yui, Gendo, Fuyutsuki) were in danger of getting bumped off by Seele. So Yui really was in a position of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" which folks tend to ignore or forget.

With leaving Shinji on a supposedly fucked up planet post-3I, I don't think she had much choice in the matter. Adam and Lilith apparently automatically screw up Earth (cause an Impact on a small or grand scale) when people (Gendo, Seele) mess with what they shouldn't, the best Yui could do was prevent Seele (or Gendo) from winning out--Seele's scenario WOULD have screwed everyone over while Gendo's plans (for humanity) are debatable. Besides, Shinji (and later Asuka) are alive, humanity has a chance to STILL go on living which is a lot better than the alternate of being a forced into a hivemind by some death cult.

Anyway, it can also be debated why the hell did Doctor Katsuragi bring Misato along to the (unknowingly for his team) Second Impact site. Not really sure what Yui or Dr K were thinking of showing their children monstrosities (Adam in Dr. K's case, or the Eva-01 still attached to Lilith's body in Yui's) or how it really ties into a "bright future"--unless it was Yui's way of making sure Shinji would remember where she went off to? Or maybe her implying that by going inside Eva, she'd be able to protect him/humanity and give them the chance for a future instead of Seele's demented plans?
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Postby esselfortium » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:46 pm

It's true that they have a chance after third impact, I'm pretty sure it was Yui's own choice to launch herself into space and be a monument to human existence rather than staying and helping undo the damage she caused to her kid. Running away seems to run in the family.

My interpretation of the contact experiment, though, is that no one, not even Yui, expected things to go quite as they did. While she knew that she would have to give some part of herself to the Eva to make it work, can we say for sure that she knew she'd be giving up her life to do so? It can be extrapolated from here that fellow scientist Kyoko studied what Yui attempted and thought she could make the process safer, avoid Yui's mistakes, and do it better, only to fall into an even worse complication.

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Postby CyberXIII » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:47 pm

@SSD

But why didn't she tell Gendo about SEELE planning to bump him off too? That still doesn't make sense.
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Postby Bagheera » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:55 pm

View Original PostSailor Star Dust wrote:It's implied in 21' and 26' that Yui only told Fuyutsuki of her plans to enter Eva-01 because all three of them (Yui, Gendo, Fuyutsuki) were in danger of getting bumped off by Seele. So Yui really was in a position of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" which folks tend to ignore or forget.


That doesn't explain why she didn't tell Gendo, nor why she brought Shinji with her to the contact experiment.

With leaving Shinji on a supposedly fucked up planet post-3I, I don't think she had much choice in the matter. Adam and Lilith apparently automatically screw up Earth (cause an Impact on a small or grand scale) when people (Gendo, Seele) mess with what they shouldn't, the best Yui could do was prevent Seele (or Gendo) from winning out--Seele's scenario WOULD have screwed everyone over while Gendo's plans (for humanity) are debatable. Besides, Shinji (and later Asuka) are alive, humanity has a chance to STILL go on living which is a lot better than the alternate of being a forced into a hivemind by some death cult.


Yes, but that's not the point in contention. The issue isn't Third Impact -- the issue is that she left Shinji alone after. She could have left Instrumentality just like everyone else, but instead she chose to remain in Unit 01 and head off into space. There's really no excuse for that.

Do we know she could leave? Not with certainty, no. But the fact that she was there in Instrumentality like everyone else suggests she had the option should she be so inclined.

Anyway, it can also be debated why the hell did Doctor Katsuragi bring Misato along to the (unknowingly for his team) Second Impact site. Not really sure what Yui or Dr K were thinking of showing their children monstrosities (Adam in Dr. K's case, or the Eva-01 still attached to Lilith's body in Yui's) or how it really ties into a "bright future"--unless it was Yui's way of making sure Shinji would remember where she went off to? Or maybe her implying that by going inside Eva, she'd be able to protect him/humanity and give them the chance for a future instead of Seele's demented plans?


Not sure how she'd do that in the depths of space (though you could sell that if she remained in Unit 01 on Earth).

As for Dr. K, who knows? It's possible he really did think it'd just be a research expedition. Getting to set foot in Antarctica is something most kids can only dream of doing, so that'd be quite an experience for her if things went well.

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:It's true that they have a chance after third impact, I'm pretty sure it was Yui's own choice to launch herself into space and be a monument to human existence rather than staying and helping undo the damage she caused to her kid. Running away seems to run in the family.


Word.

My interpretation of the contact experiment, though, is that no one, not even Yui, expected things to go quite as they did. While she knew that she would have to give some part of herself to the Eva to make it work, can we say for sure that she knew she'd be giving up her life to do so?


That's a fair point, but still, why bring her kid to see it? That's fucked up.

It can be extrapolated from here that fellow scientist Kyoko studied what Yui attempted and thought she could make the process safer, avoid Yui's mistakes, and do it better, only to fall into an even worse complication.


It sucks to be Kyoko, eh? Guess the Ikari's aren't the only ones with dubious family traditions. :um:

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Postby esselfortium » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:11 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:That's a fair point, but still, why bring her kid to see it? That's fucked up.

Too much trust in her own research?

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Postby Bagheera » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:19 pm

View Original Postesselfortium wrote:Too much trust in her own research?


Yeesh. Though it was the first ever contact experiment, so who knows?

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Postby Azathoth » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:43 pm

View Original PostBagheera wrote:Yeesh. Though it was the first ever contact experiment, so who knows?


Bear in mind, this is Yui, the same woman who figures that as long as the earth, sun and moon exist, the human condition is just fucking cherry. I wouldn't be surprised if she knew what would happen and simply didn't understand that most four-year-olds (or emotionally retarded husbands, for that matter) can't appreciate the symbolic gesture of their mother-figure sacrificing immediate social obligation in order to reach heaven by violence.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:08 am

It could also just be high-chutzpa misdirection : bringing your kid in isn't something you'd expect someone to do if you knew you weren't going to be walking away from the experiment.
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Postby Bagheera » Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:33 am

View Original PostMr. Tines wrote:It could also just be high-chutzpa misdirection : bringing your kid in isn't something you'd expect someone to do if you knew you weren't going to be walking away from the experiment.


...which takes us right back to the thread title.

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Postby Chowwow » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:46 am

I've already spoken about this subject long ago in my inaugural post on this site. Let me just see if I may add this cliche: don't attribute to malice when incompetence would do. No one had absolute power in the story and it seems that the more one tried to control everything, the more things went wrong (as is the case with many conspiracies in history). I think it's a safe bet to say that in the end, nothing came out what everyone planned it out to be in spite of their best efforts. Towards the conclusion, all we got was a hodgepodge of horrific proportions. As a result, I don't feel justified in judging Yui based on a final outcome where no one came out on top.

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Postby oOoOoOo » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:41 am

If I was Shinji I'd probably be a little cross with my mom, although less so than with my dad. At least she had some epic space magic reason to be absent all the time. Dad... he was just in the next town over. ;_;
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Postby NemZ » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:09 pm

My general feeling is that Yui basically is so caught up in the beauty and drama of her grand ideas that the human element gets lost in all that dazzling shine, the epitome of an ivory tower academic. In that way Gendo really does compliment her well, as he's also a big idea guy and he simply doesn't give a shit about the unfortunate side effects so long as the end result is successful... as long as those side effects happen to other people, anyway.
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Postby Bagheera » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:06 pm

View Original PostoOoOoOo wrote:If I was Shinji I'd probably be a little cross with my mom, although less so than with my dad. At least she had some epic space magic reason to be absent all the time. Dad... he was just in the next town over. ;_;


I'm just picturing the following in Shinji's mind:

"My mom chose to leave the planet, and cast herself adrift in space forever, instead of be with me. I really am the lowest."

I still find it mind-boggling that she'd want to do that. I mean, forget the isolation and shit -- though that alone would dissuade almost anyone from the idea. Hell, forget the effects on Shinji. I just wanna know what parent would want to leave her son behind like that? It just doesn't seem like something (rational) humans are equipped to do, especially if doing so will ultimately harm their child (and it really can't help but harm Shinji in this case).

I honestly think that, of all the whacked out, crazy shit in EoE, this bit really does top the list.

View Original PostNemZ wrote:My general feeling is that Yui basically is so caught up in the beauty and drama of her grand ideas that the human element gets lost in all that dazzling shine, the epitome of an ivory tower academic. In that way Gendo really does compliment her well, as he's also a big idea guy and he simply doesn't give a shit about the unfortunate side effects so long as the end result is successful... as long as those side effects happen to other people, anyway.


I still don't get what she saw in him. Maybe he was just an emotionally abusive asshole or something and bullied her into marrying him. It'd certainly explain both his obsession and her reasons for not bringing him up to speed on what she was doing with the contact experiment.

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Postby NemZ » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:51 pm

How that hook up happened is one of the biggest blanks in the whole series. I think you're on the wrong track with the abusive angle though, as I actually have a really hard time seeing Gendo as anything other than completely whipped when it comes to Yui. I picture it as the sort of relationship where she knew she'd always win any argument and didn't really see the point in having them, instead simply not informing him of anything he might try to object to or only talking about when it's too late to change... lots of flabbergasted Gendo moments when he simply has no options and thus can only rage ineffectually for a while before succumbing to the inevitable.

I think in Gendo Yui saw the fulfillment of the 'bad boy' fantasy, an arrogant jerkass predator of a man who was utterly tamed when it came to her and only her. Gendo instead met this fascinating creature whose "soft power" he couldn't overcome nor bring himself to view as a threat, and thus didn't know what the hell to do with her other than join her mad quest.

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