Once more with feeling -- Yui is an evil bitch

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

Moderator: Board Staff

Legendary
Test Subject
Test Subject
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 2814
Joined: Jun 11, 2008
Gender: Male

Once more with feeling -- Yui is an evil bitch

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Legendary » Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:47 pm

Split from here

Except, in this case, Yui represents destiny. Shinji can't control her, her whims are unexplainable and on the whole malevolent. Yui DELIBERATELY let Asuka die, for her plan to succeed.

IrkenEvangelion
Pilot
Pilot
User avatar
Age: 28
Posts: 2021
Joined: Apr 12, 2008
Location: Mirai Gajetto Kenkyujo
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby IrkenEvangelion » Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:32 pm

Which brings up the belief that Yui is evile.
THIS IS STEINS;GATE'S CHOICE!
----<3 Merchant meets Spicy Wolf <3----
8 YEARS OF EVA, Does it mean something to you?
EvaPedia|Xbox Live|El Psy Congroo

Synapsid
Pilot
Pilot
User avatar
Posts: 2143
Joined: Aug 05, 2008
Location: NERV Baths

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Synapsid » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:41 pm

Legendary wrote:Except, in this case, Yui represents destiny. Shinji can't control her, her whims are unexplainable and on the whole malevolent. Yui DELIBERATELY let Asuka die, for her plan to succeed.


Exactly, destiny from the hero's part is unavoidable, and the Fates and Gods are the movers, unmercifully dictating fate. In this case Yui and Kaworu, along with Lilith, Gendo and SEELE steer the plot to it's destination. It may be a mistake to compare EVA to Greek tragedy, but I see paralels in them.
It's a trap!|Saigo no shisha seitenkan
Genderbending is an important part of any fandom and must be taken very seriously. ZapalacX
If you ever say that name again, I will hunt you down and neuter you with a spork. Sailor Star Dust *cue Shinji's bloodcurling girly scream* LiLi
leave my innocent Shinjiko thread alone! Reichu Asuka would be the one going "SURPRISE BUTTSEKS, BAKA!!!!" while of course in appropriate dress and, *cough, gulp, snort*, with a certain strapped on accessory THE Hal E. Burton 9000

BobBQ
Dyskolos
Dyskolos
User avatar
Posts: 4486
Joined: Jul 21, 2006
Location: Somewhere out there
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BobBQ » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:43 pm

It's all very well to see parallels, but those are ten a woolong - remember Impy and his Eva-is-Wagner shtick?

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 63
Posts: 21119
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:25 am

IrkenEvangelion wrote:Which brings up the belief that Yui is evile.


http://forum.evageeks.org/thread/703/Arch-Fiend-Yui-Inevitability-of-3I/

Or indeed almost any thread with her name in the title.
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics|🕊|🐸|MAL
Avatar: ROCK!

AuraTwilight
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3317
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:02 am

This is all assuming that Yui had any idea what Asuka and Unit 02 were up to. Just because she has an S2 Engine doesn't mean she has clairvoyance.

honsou
Zeruel
Zeruel
Age: 37
Posts: 845
Joined: Sep 15, 2006
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby honsou » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:22 am

Legendary wrote:Except, in this case, Yui represents destiny. Shinji can't control her, her whims are unexplainable and on the whole malevolent. Yui DELIBERATELY let Asuka die, for her plan to succeed.


Ah okay i see what your saying now, then yes your right.

Man Yui is one evil bitch

AuraTwilight
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3317
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:29 pm

How is Yui an evil bitch? Because she stopped the apocalypse? If anything, she's a case of Omniscient Morality License.

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 63
Posts: 21119
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:36 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:Because she stopped the apocalypse?


I didn't see it being stopped

Image

Pic related, as they say.
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics|🕊|🐸|MAL
Avatar: ROCK!

NemZ
Token Misanthrope
Token Misanthrope
User avatar
Posts: 15804
Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Location: St. Louis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby NemZ » Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:49 pm

Stopped it? Looks like it went off without a hitch to me.

let's review, shall we?

  • Knowingly and intentionally contributed to 2nd impact
  • Destroyed her family by making drastic choices without consulting them
  • Initiated 3rd impact, effectively ending the world as we know it
  • Killed her husband for the weaknesses her actions drove him to
  • Abandoned Shinji to the global wasteland her actions created
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

AyrYntake
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 615
Joined: Jun 26, 2008
Location: Depends...
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AyrYntake » Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:33 pm

NemZ wrote:Let's review, shall we?

  • Knowingly and intentionally contributed to 2nd impact
  • Destroyed her family by making drastic choices without consulting them
  • Initiated 3rd impact, effectively ending the world as we know it
  • Killed her husband for the weaknesses her actions drove him to
  • Abandoned Shinji to the global wasteland her actions created

Not many of these stand up to close inspection. We can't prove that she contributed to the Second Impact at all, and if she'd been able to consult her family about the choice she made to stay in EVA-01 she probably wouldn't have had another chance to do it.

Gendo's death was inevitable as Instrumentality drew near, and you can't blame Yui for causing his weakness which was there all along. If your wife suddenly "dies" (as the world would have seen it) and you become depressed and antisocial, you can't say that she's to blame for what you've turned into.
As for abandoning Shinji, what can I say? She was enough of a good mother to allow her son the choice of remaining within Lilith or destroying her (which, incidentally, would leave herself to the cold solitude of space for untold millenia). SEELE were bound to achieve Instrumentality one way or another; Yui's actions simply ensured that hope continued after the Third Impact had occurred. Shinji's return to the barren world as a recognizable human being was entirely his choice. Had Yui not been there to protect him, he probably wouldn't have survived to make the decision in the first place.

In any case, this topic needs a new thread.

As for saving Asuka, I was under the impression all along that were Yui to break out of the bakelite and let Shinji in earlier (which is the only plausible method I see of saving her), SEELE would probably have the UN troops carpet bomb the place with N2s until there was hardly any humanity left to fight for. The only reason why Yui didn't go and put up a fight was because any fight would be an inevitable loss. EVA-02 was going down sooner or later, and what can one all-powerful Eva Unit do against NINE units which are--for military purposes, at least--pretty much equally powerful?

There was no way of stopping SEELE directly, which is the only reason why Yui let everything go according to their plan until nobody but herself could interfere. It was only then that she could thwart their plan with a final twist and let Shinji decide his own fate.
Cirrus, Socrates, particle, decibel, hurricane, dolphin, tulip

Ornette
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 46
Posts: 11852
Joined: Dec 26, 2005
Location: Pittsburgh/New York City
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ornette » Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:41 pm

Blaming Yui for what Gendo turned into is not much different than blaming Gendo for what Shinji turned into.

The other effect of all this happening is that there is no longer any materials to ever start another 3rd Impact again. GNR/Adam and all the MPEs were petrified, the geofront was destroyed, Eva-01 and the Lance are now floating away in space.

AuraTwilight
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3317
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:29 pm

I didn't see it being stopped


Seeing as people could resolidify and rebuild civilization, I'm pretty sure that counts as a stopped Apocalypse, since a real Apocalypse can't be reversed.

* Knowingly and intentionally contributed to 2nd impact
* Destroyed her family by making drastic choices without consulting them
* Initiated 3rd impact, effectively ending the world as we know it
* Killed her husband for the weaknesses her actions drove him to
* Abandoned Shinji to the global wasteland her actions created


* Didn't even go to Antartica, I don't see how this is her fault.
* Destroyed the happiness of her family by making drastic choices without consulting them so there'd still be a family to keep living, even if it wasn't very happily.
* Didn't initiate 3rd Impact.
* Left Shinji to live in the only world she could've possibly left for him, then left so that her presence didn't fuck up the future of the planet Earth any more than it already has.

NemZ
Token Misanthrope
Token Misanthrope
User avatar
Posts: 15804
Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Location: St. Louis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby NemZ » Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:33 pm

If some kind mod would split or redirect these posts to a more appropriate thread it would be appreciated.

AyrYntake wrote:We can't prove that she contributed to the Second Impact at all


Obviously she and her theories were involved. Fuyutsuki directly asks about her absence from the follow-up investigation.

if she'd been able to consult her family about the choice she made to stay in EVA-01 she probably wouldn't have had another chance to do it.


Ask for forgiveness rather then permission? You essentially just admitted that she knew Gendo wouldn't understand, but did it anyway... and apparantly all for the purpose of becoming a giant space memorial to the race she helped effectively wipe out.

Gendo's death was inevitable as Instrumentality drew near


You say that as if instrumentally was a done deal, even if she tried to stop it. Shinji may not have been in a position to do anything about it, but Yui sure as hell was.

and you can't blame Yui for causing his weakness which was there all along.


She didn't cause it, but she certainly didn't do anything at all to prepare the guy for what she had planned, and the abruptness of it couldn't have gone more wrong if she tried. Gendo is to blame for succumbing to his weaknesses, but Yui has to bear the guilt of setting him up in the first place.

As for abandoning Shinji, what can I say? She was enough of a good mother to allow her son the choice of remaining within Lilith or destroying her (which, incidentally, would leave herself to the cold solitude of space for untold millenia).


Did Yui have a choice at that point, or was she instrumentalized too?

She could have mentioned that it was impossible to go back to the world as he left it before he made that choice, or that in all likelihood he will never find his friends again in what is sure to be a short lifespan in the social chaos to follow. No, far better to give him a vague pep talk that, looked at in more detail, is very dark indeed. Although anyone can come back, there's no way to know if they actually will... and the fact that it's a choice means that his isolation is because the world really doesn't want anything to do with him. As to her other bit of advice, it correlates that anywhere can be a hell if you want to die (especially if you still can't muster up the nerve to kill yourself).

Also, you can't spin her isolation as a sacrifice when that's is precisely what she wanted to happen.

SEELE were bound to achieve Instrumentality one way or another


No, no they weren't. There's no reason to think it was inevitable.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:54 pm

Ornette wrote:GNR/Adam and all the MPEs were petrified

GNR's severed body parts make an instant transition from white to grey-ish when they fall below cloud level. However, this color change doesn't seem to go hand-in-hand with petrification; when her arm hits the ground, we can see it reacting to the impact in a very flesh-and-bones kind of way. In the final scene, we can also see that GNR's iris is still red.

Another thing to note is that the harpies didn't petrify completely: they still have liquid blood. (The close-up on the decapitated Eva at the end shows this clearly.)
Last edited by Reichu on Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

BobBQ
Dyskolos
Dyskolos
User avatar
Posts: 4486
Joined: Jul 21, 2006
Location: Somewhere out there
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BobBQ » Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:43 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:Seeing as people could resolidify and rebuild civilization, I'm pretty sure that counts as a stopped Apocalypse, since a real Apocalypse can't be reversed.

Whither the post-apocalyptic genre, then?

Sailor Star Dust
Kept you waiting, huh?
Kept you waiting, huh?
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 23063
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Location: 私の中いる自分の心
Gender: Female

Leave Yui alone! She's just a human being!

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sailor Star Dust » Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:52 pm

If the harpies (and Lilith) aren't petrified, then just what the hell was Yui doing after Eva-01 burst out of GNR's eye? :blink:

Also, I think claiming Yui is "evil" is a ridiculous way of putting it. When you step back and think about it, none of the characters in Eva are really black and white with being "good" or "evil", they're simply doing whatever THEY personally think is the right thing.

In Yui's case, although her stopping Seele (and Gendo) from fulfilling Instrumentality is noble, there is the possibility her way of doing things (example: letting a few suffer for the greater good such as Asuka & Kyoko during the harpy battle--supposedly "everybody can return" in the end of it all, anyway) was either the only way she could think of or the best she could do in the given situation. At any rate, I really feel that being able to still have a chance at life is better then the only alternative: stuck as a collective hivemind for all eternity or at least God knows how long.

Besides why should the end result of rejecting Instrumentality be all sunshine and roses when life itself doesn't always work out that way? At least everybody still has a chance at LIVING at the very end of things.
~Take care of yourself, I need you~

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

Re:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:58 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:If the harpies (and Lilith) aren't petrified, then just what the hell was Yui doing after Eva-01 burst out of GNR's eye?

Destroying the Black Moon, dissipating souls back across the Earth, making the replica Spears burst into yellow goo, mostly petrifying the harpies for some reason, and then sort of petrifying herself for some reason. Possibly induced GNR into "releasing destrudo", as it were -- who knows with that one.

Also, I think claiming Yui is "evil" is a ridiculous way of putting it.

♪ "Shinji's mom's a bitch, she's an evil bitch, the most wicked bitch in the whole wide world; an insidious bitch if there ever was a bitch; she's a mega-bitch, or so I've heard!..." ♪

When you step back and think about it, none of the characters in Eva are really black and white with being "good" or "evil", they're simply doing whatever THEY personally think is the right thing.

Yui's a problematic character, as well, because only the vaguest details are known, and all else must be inferred. But this itself is difficult, because she's tied so deeply into some of the most mysterious plot elements. How does one arrive at a reasonable interpretation of her actions and motivations without having the full picture in hand?

It's kind of interesting how this character who is portrayed as a maternal saint who can do no wrong and is used to convey the happy-feely message in EoE inspires so many discussions about what a horrible human being she is.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog

AuraTwilight
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3317
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:48 am

Obviously she and her theories were involved. Fuyutsuki directly asks about her absence from the follow-up investigation.


And Hitler used Darwin's theories to kill Jews THEREFORE DARWIN IS RACIST OMG

Ask for forgiveness rather then permission? You essentially just admitted that she knew Gendo wouldn't understand, but did it anyway... and apparantly all for the purpose of becoming a giant space memorial to the race she helped effectively wipe out.


She didn't wipe out humanity. She could've done nothing, been killed by SEELE, then have Instrumentality go off without a hitch with no hope of reversal. There's no happy third rode where she stays with her family and Instrumentality is 100% averted.

No, no they weren't. There's no reason to think it was inevitable.


Present one scenario, one, where Yui could've entirely stopped Third Impact from happening in any way, shape, or form.

Whither the post-apocalyptic genre, then?


I've always felt that entire genre should've been renamed post-catastrophe, my point still stands.

If the harpies (and Lilith) aren't petrified, then just what the hell was Yui doing after Eva-01 burst out of GNR's eye?


The Harpies were pretty much petrified save their blood, but I assume what she did was making any Angelic wankery impossible. Perhaps she neutralized the fruits in GNR, and petrified the dead EVAs, etc. so no more Angelic beings could be made for bad reasons.

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Sat Feb 28, 2009 1:16 am

AuraTwilight wrote:The Harpies were pretty much petrified save their blood

That's still bad news, unless for some reason they don't have leukocytes. (But Evas have plenty of other features you'd think would be worthless to an unlimited-energy immortal like Adam, so why not.)

Perhaps she neutralized the fruits in GNR, and petrified the dead EVAs, etc. so no more Angelic beings could be made for bad reasons.

There's enough left (in GNR's case, more than anyone could possibly ever want or need) that people would theoretically be able to harvest tissue and do stuff with it, once the relevant technologies come back online. There's also a good possibility that we still have intact material at sites around the world involved in Seele's endeavors -- for Adam, Evas, Spears, whatever.

Yui probably shouldn't have been in such a hurry to leave.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」
Departure Message | The Arqa Apocrypha: An Evangelion Analysis Blog


Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests