Was Kaworu really Adam?

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Was Kaworu really Adam?

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Postby SleepS » Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:05 am

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I didn't find anything when I searched (of course, I'm just learning).

In episode 24, the uncut version, SEELE members say that Kaworu has the soul of Adam inside of him. I always took this to mean that since Kaworu was in fact Angel, he was born from Adam like all of the rest of the Angels. I'm reading places that Kaworu was actually a clone; he is to SEELE was Rei is to NERV. This confuses me, and I'm hoping someone can clear it up for me. How can Kaworu be an Angel and a clone at the same time? In Rei's case, she was only part Angel, but Kaworu was full blown Angel, proved by his synch rates. I understand that Kaworu was sent by SEELE and almost tricked into starting the Third Impact. But how could SEELE have ended up "creating" and Angel? Basically, I don't understand how Kaworu could be the 17th Angel and still be a clone that SEELE supposedly created to house Adam.

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Postby Sachi » Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:06 am

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Postby V » Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:36 pm

yes and no

I have long pondered what exactly it meant that Kaworu is both the Angel "Tabris" and the "vessel of the soul of Adam"

either way, he's identical to Rei

the result *I THINK* is that Kaworu is both the first and last Angel: surely, he doesn't consider himself to be "Adam". He considers Adam "mother of us all"

nonetheless, Rei is the soul of Lilith inserted into a human clone body.

Kaworu is, likewise, the soul of Adam inserted into the clone-body of an *unidentified* human

was there a separate "Tabris-soul" or not? and that Adam is "doubling up" as it were?

well, Gendo could keep Adam's embryo in his hand, and apparently, after Kaworu died he inserted Adam's now free-soul back into the embyro in his hand.

but I think there's a difference between "embryo stuck in hand" and "a whole "being" like Kaworu was"

The view I've settled on (with much trepidation and hope that Rebuild will clear this up) is that Kaworu is just Adam's soul, put into a "blank" human clone body. He's an odd, revenant version of Adam who considers himself a new unique entity.

That's kind of sort of Rei's character arc; she's afraid that she's just either a clone of Yui; or, that she's just Lilith living in a new body. Lots of philosophical identity issues.

Along the way, however, Rei realizes that she's a new unique combination of Yui and Lilith and thus a new independent being, "Rei", and not simply the sum of her antecedents.

but this is what Kaworu kind of already treats as a given; he no longer considers himself "Adam".

It is interesting to speculate, once both of their souls and bodies are reunited in The Hybrid during End of Eva...shouldn't they just consider themselves "Adam" and "Lilith" now? Or have their experiences on Earth altered them so that they're now "Kaworu/Rei"? Rei dominates because her body was used too.

then of course we get into the whole arguement of "well did Kaworu/Adam and Rei/Lilith actually "die" at the end?

and the answer I think arguably is "yes", but that by this point Rei/Lilith/Kaworu has become a Living God and transcended Time Itself (explaining the "Bookend Reis")

so in a "Slaughterhouse Five" -esque way, Rei and Kaworu do indeed "die" during End of Eva, but that doesn't stop them from being "alive" either earlier or later than that. They've become "unstuck in time", though ultimate'y, they will die in End of Eva.
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Postby NemZ » Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:02 pm

V wrote:He's an odd, revenant version of Adam who considers himself a new unique entity.


Agreed.

That's kind of sort of Rei's character arc; she's afraid that she's just either a clone of Yui; or, that she's just Lilith living in a new body.


...but not here, not entirely anyway. I don't think she necessarily knows about either on more than a subconscious level until 24.

so in a "Slaughterhouse Five" -esque way, Rei and Kaworu do indeed "die" during End of Eva, but that doesn't stop them from being "alive" either earlier or later than that. They've become "unstuck in time", though ultimate'y, they will die in End of Eva.


a very appropriate comparisson.
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Postby V » Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:55 pm

That's kind of sort of Rei's character arc; she's afraid that she's just either a clone of Yui; or, that she's just Lilith living in a new body.


...but not here, not entirely anyway. I don't think she necessarily knows about either on more than a subconscious level until 24.


http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-25/episode-25A-scene5.html


subconsciously yes, but she is nonetheless driven by her subconscious:

cut 147 onwards

Rei 1 "Even so, there is another who is the true you."
Rei 1 "It's just that you don't know her."
Rei 1 "Because you don't want to look at it, you're just avoiding something inside you that you don't understand."
"Because you're afraid"
"Because she might not have a human form."
"You are afraid"
"Afraid that you will disappear from within the minds of others."

so in a "Slaughterhouse Five" -esque way, Rei and Kaworu do indeed "die" during End of Eva, but that doesn't stop them from being "alive" either earlier or later than that. They've become "unstuck in time", though ultimate'y, they will die in End of Eva.


a very appropriate comparisson.


In the brief...hours?...time frame between when The Hybrid is created by Rei merging with Adam and Lilith, and when it voluntarily dies (apparently similar to Kaworu's earlier choice, so that the human race can live; as part of Shinji's rejection of Instrumentality).....it had become a Living God. Omnipresent and transcending Time Itself (like descriptions of actual "God" being outside of time, truly Omniscient)

Compare to how the Prophets of Bajor (the Worhhole Aliens) don't exist in linear time. "I will come back. Maybe next year, or maybe...yesterday. But I will be back"

so in this brief flash of "linear time" that the Hybrid is "alive", it's consciousness was free to flit about the timeline

"No longer mere earthbeings and planetbeings are we, but bright
children of the stars! And together we shall dance in and out
of ten billion years, celebrating the gift of consciousness until
the stars themselves grow cold and weary, and our thoughts turn
again to the beginning."
-- Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, "Ascent to Transcendence" ending

this is ultimately how "Bookend Rei" is able to appear to Shinji both long before the creation of the Hybrid, as well as after its apparent "death"

from the Hybrid's perspective, it could send its consciousness through millions of years past and future, though at the end (from ITS perspective) it will of course die as seen in End of Eva.

Further, it KNOWS its going to die in End fo Eva, knew it even before Shinji made the choice. But it cared enough about humanity in general and Shinji in particular to sacrifice itself to his choice.

So it goes.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:01 pm

In the same sense that Rei is Lilith
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Postby Reichu » Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:53 pm

The Kaworu-Adam situation reminds me a little of this:

Jesus: "I'm the Son of the Holy Father and the Holy Father at the same time! Woooooooooo!!!!"
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Axell » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:29 pm

Kaworu=jesus
Kaworu died for your sins

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Postby Reichu » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:30 pm

We needn't go quite that far... (And you can dig up the relevant threads if you honestly do.)
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby SleepS » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:46 am

My doubt is that, how can Kaworu be an Agnel if he was created by SEELE? Wouldn't that imply that SEELE can just go around and make Angels? Plus, I thought Kaworu was full Angel because he could synch with the EVA perfectly, unlike Rei whose only part Angel and cannot.

Maybe what they meant is that all Angels are born from Adam and therefore posses there souls? And seeing as he's the only Angel left, he's the house for Adam's soul? Just a possibility.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:00 am

My doubt is that, how can Kaworu be an Agnel if he was created by SEELE?


Do we really know for sure that SEELE actually created Kaworu? Atleast, on purpose? Regardless, let's assume for this discussion that this is the case.

Wouldn't that imply that SEELE can just go around and make Angels?


Well, aren't the Evangelions basically Angels with human souls in them? An Angel body plus an Angel soul is going to be an Angel. There's no magic spell for it; it's not like SEELE and NERV don't have loads of Angelic DNA stored.

Plus, I thought Kaworu was full Angel because he could synch with the EVA perfectly, unlike Rei whose only part Angel and cannot.


Kaworu has Adam's soul, so he controls the Evangelions because they're basically Adam's body. Kaworu's physical body, Angelic or otherwise, doesn't have anything to do with it. Same with Rei, whose body is pretty much human anyway. Both Kaworu and Rei are Adam and Lilith, respectively, in Lilin (homo sapien) bodies.

Maybe what they meant is that all Angels are born from Adam and therefore posses there souls? And seeing as he's the only Angel left, he's the house for Adam's soul? Just a possibility.


Adam gave birth to Angels 3-17. when Adam went a splode, his soul went inside number 17 when it was born. Simple.

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Postby SleepS » Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:14 am

Do we really know for sure that SEELE actually created Kaworu?


That was my original confusion. I don't think Kaworu was created by anyone. He came into existance just like all the other Angels.

Kaworu has Adam's soul, so he controls the Evangelions because they're basically Adam's body. Kaworu's physical body, Angelic or otherwise, doesn't have anything to do with it. Same with Rei, whose body is pretty much human anyway. Both Kaworu and Rei are Adam and Lilith, respectively, in Lilin (homo sapien) bodies.


Right, I understand this. But if Kaworu is indeed a hybrid or Adam's soul and another human (like V's theory) would he not have full control over the EVA since he's not just Adam's soul anymore? Now he's Adam's soul pluls some human?

Adam gave birth to Angels 3-17. when Adam went a splode, his soul went inside number 17 when it was born. Simple.


Now is this actually proven in the series or is it just speculation? Because this is basically the answer to my question, but I don't remember that being said.

My own thought pattern on the whole subject is that Kaworu isn't a clone, hybrid, insert your own word here, at all. I don't actually know where that theory came, but it seems to generally accepted by EVA fans.

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Postby NemZ » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:51 am

V wrote:http://www.evacommentary.org/episode-25/episode-25A-scene5.html

subconsciously yes, but she is nonetheless driven by her subconscious:


Does 25 come before 24 in your universe, V?

aura Twilight wrote:Adam gave birth to Angels 3-17. when Adam went a splode, his soul went inside number 17 when it was born. Simple.


Adam made 3-16 but Seele made 17 by once again messing about with things they should have left bloody well alone, probably in a way parallel to the (likely accidental) creation of Rei. Simpler, because it doesn't require anything we haven't seen before.
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Postby Legendary » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:57 am

Wasn't a Tabris angel in the scrolls like all the others though? If so, then there was an original #17, because if Kaworu was a total freak accident, then the FAR couldn't have predicted him in their notes.

This also has some relevancy regarding the theory that the fifteen (instead of twelve) Seele monoliths in Episode 24 were Angel souls. People assumed the fifteenth was Israfel #2, but if the Tabris soul survived.... (goes off to rant mindlessly on pointless subject)

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Postby Reichu » Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:42 am

AuraTwilight wrote:when Adam went a splode, his soul went inside number 17 when it was born. Simple.

Nope. Seele put it there.

Classified Information wrote:There hasn't been a soul within Adam. At the time of Second Impact, her body was torn apart, and her soul flew off somewhere as a result. It was later recovered by Seele and incarnated, taking the form called Kaworu Nagisa.

If the soul was going to "naturally gravitate" towards anything, it would have been the Adam embryo, not Tabris.

SleepS wrote:My own thought pattern on the whole subject is that Kaworu isn't a clone, hybrid, insert your own word here, at all. I don't actually know where that theory came, but it seems to generally accepted by EVA fans.

Not around these parts, anyway, probably because there really isn't anything supporting the idea that an independent "Tabris soul" exists.

I don't think Kaworu was created by anyone. He came into existance just like all the other Angels.

It is HEAVILY implicated in the show that Kaworu (his body, anyway) was the product of the contact experiment between an unnamed human "donor" and Adam that preceded Second Impact. (Sadamoto basically states it outright in the manga.)
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby master_lloyd » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:10 am

So Kaworu's body was created by the Second Impact, but remained soulless until Seele recovered Adam's and put it there?

That seems like a bit of a hassle. The whole soul salvaging part of Evangelion does vex me so.

And why am I getting an image in my head of Keel sitting on an iceberg with a rod fishing the Antarctic for Adams soul?
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Postby UrsusArctos » Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:15 am

master_lloyd wrote:So Kaworu's body was created by the Second Impact, but remained soulless until Seele recovered Adam's and put it there?


That would appear to be the case, yes.

That seems like a bit of a hassle. The whole soul salvaging part of Evangelion does vex me so.


[Anno] Too bad. [/Anno]

And why am I getting an image in my head of Keel sitting on an iceberg with a rod fishing the Antarctic for Adams soul?


Keel doesn't need a fishing rod. He could send a hundred trawlers with fishing nets out there to find that soul. :wink:
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Postby V » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:58 am

SleepS wrote:My doubt is that, how can Kaworu be an Agnel if he was created by SEELE? Wouldn't that imply that SEELE can just go around and make Angels? Plus, I thought Kaworu was full Angel because he could synch with the EVA perfectly, unlike Rei whose only part Angel and cannot.


the difference is that Kaworu is fully aware of his Angelic nature, but Rei is not (consciously)
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Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:28 pm

Adam made 3-16 but Seele made 17 by once again messing about with things they should have left bloody well alone, probably in a way parallel to the (likely accidental) creation of Rei. Simpler, because it doesn't require anything we haven't seen before.


So why can't Kaworu be an accidental creation too? SEELE could've just capitalized on it.

Nope. Seele put it there.


If the soul was going to "naturally gravitate" towards anything, it would have been the Adam embryo, not Tabris.


Fair enough, but then where was the soul inbetween Tabris' birth and Adam's 'splosion? Souls in the Evaverse don't seem like they can generally remain disembodied for whatever reason.

And of course, this doesn't address whether Kaworu's creation was deliberate or not, either way.

[Anno] Too bad. [/Anno]


Duel of the Seeds.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:40 pm

But Anno was lame and said Duel of the Seeds didn't happen based on the information we have in the CI.
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