Lilith and Adam. Questions...

[Soluzar [ANF]]

I'm sure that this is just the sort of question that's going to inspire responses like 'clueless n00b' or that sort of thing. I don't mind that too much, so here goes.

In episodes 8 & 14, to name but two, Gendo refers to the creature contained deep within the heart of Terminal Dogma as Adam. Fine. So you keep watching, and then in episode 15, Kaji takes Misato into Terminal Dogma, where he allows her to see the creature that he describes as 'Adam'. Also fine, I'm with it so far.

Skipping forward, to episode 24, when Kaoru reaches Terminal Dogma, apparently intending to re-unite the soul of Adam with the body of Adam, he appears surprised to discover that what they have here is not Adam, but Lileth. Now this is where I get a little confused.

So... when Kaji showed 'Adam' to Misato, it was actually Lileth. What they have had crucified on this great red cross in Terminal Dogma was always Lileth. So where is Adam? Why did Kaji think that Lileth was Adam?

I'm starting to wonder I've missed something. The scenes where Gendo is talking to Shogouki seem to imply that Adam is somehow within Gendo... or at least that was the impression that I got, looking at that odd growth on his hand.

So, I'm now working on the assumption that Nerv have 'captured' both Adam and Lileth. The bodies thereof, at least. If this is true, when did they get Lileth? Presumably they recovered Adam from the site of the 2I. This is what I had always thought to be the case anyway.

Can someone clear all this up for me? I'm re-watching the latter part of the series as we speak to try and find some more clues as to where Adam has been all this time, but I'm sure one of the forum regulars will be kind enough to explain it using words of two syllables or less so that I can understand!

I honestly never did understand where Adam was. Undoubtedly there is a blatantly obvious answer which I have so far neglected -- perhaps by an enormous coincidence I always get distracted at the same point in the same episode!

Anyhow, please feel free to laugh at my confusion, I promise I won't mind. As long as you answer the question when you're done pointing and jeering.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 02:19 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Adam was initially found in the White Moon beneath Antarctica by the Katsuragi Team with the Spear of Longinus stuck through him. As a result of the Katsuragi Team's experimentation, Adam "woke up", went kablooey, and somehow ended up retroverting into his embryonic self. This was recovered post-2I, taken to Germany, and designated "SAMPLE A-01". In episode #08, Kaji smuggled Adam's embryo to Nerv HQ in Japan and presented him to Gendou for safekeeping. Subsequently, Gendou had Adam implanted into his right hand, which we only see in episode #24, but could have happened much earlier (impossible to know, since Gendou always has those gloves on).

Lilith was discovered below Hakone in the Black Moon after the discovery of Adam (evidenced by the fact that she is the "Second Angel" and he is the "First"). Not long after, she was used to produce Shogouki, which left her limbs atrophied. She managed to regenerate her arms, but before she could finish the leg part, her soul was transferred into Rei 1 and she could not complete the process. Lilith was strung up onto a giant red cross to bleed LCL until the end of time, which is how we find her in episode #15, when Kaji tells Misato that Lilith is "Adam" and causes a whole lot of unnecessary confusion.

Oddly enough, before we see Rei in EVA-00 about to skewer Lil with the Spear in #14, Gendo speaks to Fuyutsuki about how the "Adam Project" is proceeding as planned, blah blah blah. Very strange, since Gendo and Kozo are among the few people who know that that is Lilith down there, so why the hell would they have to bat the misnomer "Adam Project" around between themselves?

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 03:05 GMT

[tv33 [ANF]]

SEELE had Adam, which was stolen by Kaji to give to Gendo.
NERV had Lilith which was down, down in the depths of Central Dogma.

Sometime after episode 8 (When Kaji delivered Adam) Gedno had Adam implanted in his hand. So he could control the future of humanity, as well as scare the interns.

Edit - Reichu beat me to it. With a much more detailed post I might add...

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 03:07 GMT

[Nate the Monkey [ANF]]

Another question: if Lilith was unable to regenerate after losing her soul to Rei 1, then why did she regenerate her legs after the Lance was removed from her in episode 23?

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 03:10 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Another question: if Lilith was unable to regenerate after losing her soul to Rei 1, then why did she regenerate her legs after the Lance was removed from her in episode 23?

Since Lilith lacks an S^2, presumably her soul was her basic source of energy. As EVA-01 proved before dining on Zeruel, super-entities lacking S^2s do seem to be able to muster limited amounts of energy solely as a result of "willpower". We know that she regenerated her arms, but the fact that her legs never finished seems to imply that, as I mentioned, her soul was removed before she could finish the process. Without her soul, all she could do was just sit around and bleed.

I've theorized that the "real" reason the Spear was stuck into her was as a safeguard of sorts, to prevent anything terribly bad from happening in the event an Angel did manage to contact her. (NGE2 seems to imply that the Spear has "failsafe" properties, which I'll probably never really understand...) However, since the Spear is essentially a giant S^2-type structure, it seemed to be charging Lilith like a battery for the entire duration that it was stuck in her, and, for whatever reason, she could only expend that energy once the Spear was removed. And, as we know, it went straight to her thighs.

tv33: Hah-hah! pwned!

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 03:19 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Adam was dicovered in Antartica (in the First Geofront, i.e the White Moon) impaled with Lance of Longinus. The Katsuragi Team managed to shrink Adam down to an embryo, but unfortunately set off Second Impact as a side-effect of the process. SEELE somehow retreived the embryo, and later Kaji swiped it and delivered it to Gendo (#08), and Gendo had it grafted to his hand for safe keeping (hence the gloves). He put out misinformation (which seems to have fooled even Kaji) that the giant being on the cross in Terminal dogma was Adam. That was, of course, in reality, Lilith. It is reasonable to suppose that she was found within the Second Geofront, i.e. the Black Moon, most likely in a dormant state like Adam.
Adam is the Source of Life, or progenitor, of the lifeforms known as Angels, while Lilith is the Source of Life of 'ordinary' carbon based life on Earth, including the human race (the Lilim). They arrived on Earth billions of years ago (the First, or 'Giant Impact') as "Seeds of Life" sent forth by some unimaginably ancient, advanced "Ancestor Civilization"; tho apparently it was an accident that Earth ended up with two such Seeds, for two incompatible forms of life.
As for Gendo's scheme for initiating Third Impact (involving "the forbidden union of Adam and Lilith"), and how Adam's soul ended up in Kaworu, and Lilith's in Rei, I leave to others to elaborate...

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 03:25 GMT

[Soluzar [ANF]]

In episode #08, Kaji smuggled Adam's embryo to Nerv HQ in Japan and presented him to Gendou for safekeeping.

Rather suggesting that Kaji might know that what he showed to Misato is not Adam, I would have thought. Then, what do I know? Strange writing, that.

Lilith was strung up onto a giant red cross to bleed LCL until the end of time, which is how we find her in episode #15, when Kaji tells Misato that Lilith is "Adam" and causes a whole lot of unnecessary confusion.

Oddly enough, before we see Rei in EVA-00 about to skewer Lil with the Spear in #14, Gendo speaks to Fuyutsuki about how the "Adam Project" is proceeding as planned, blah blah blah. Very strange, since Gendo and Kozo are among the few people who know that that is Lilith down there, so why the hell would they have to bat the misnomer "Adam Project" around between themselves?

It was precisely these two things to which you have referred that gave me reason to doubt my own interpretation of the depicted events. I had arrived at conclusions similar (if in no way as detailed) to the ones that you and the other kind posters (thank you all) have described.

I just couldn't see why Gendo would call it the 'Adam Project'. Oh well, deception becomes a habit and all of that. I can sort of see the reasoning behind that choice of words. I guess they wanted to keep the audience in the dark right up until #24.

Thank you all for your explanations, and for your kindness. This series is so much more comprehensible since I found these forums. I actually understand so much more than before I first came here.

Domo arigato gozaimasu.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 03:48 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

As for Gendo's scheme for initiating Third Impact (involving "the forbidden union of Adam and Lilith"), and how Adam's soul ended up in Kaworu, and Lilith's in Rei, I leave to others to elaborate...

Well, let's not confuse the matter any more than we have to! After all, all of the above-mentioned details are EVIL, since Anno decided for some reason not to elaborate on any of them even in NGE2 (as far as we know, anyway), whereas he thought we ought to know about Adam and Lilith's extraterrestrial origins, which was a somewhat predictable tidbit anyway.

As far as the whole deception issue, I still can't think of any real good reasons for muddling Lilith's identity. Would it have really made any difference if we were told who she was in episode #15?

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 04:07 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

As far as the whole deception issue, I still can't think of any real good reasons for muddling Lilith's identity. Would it have really made any difference if we were told who she was in episode #15?

I'm sure that Anno deliberately made a point of not even mentioning the subject until #24, when Kaworu shows up spouting stuff about "Lilim" and "Lilith"; I think he didn't want to reveal the whole truth about who and what Rei was until the last possible moment (and, in fact, without the NPC and EoE, the fact that Rei actually = Lilith is a rather subtle point, tho it certainly is[/u] there, if you know what to look for).

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 04:47 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

I'm sure that Anno deliberately made a point of not even mentioning the subject until #24, when Kaworu shows up spouting stuff about "Lilim" and "Lilith"; I think he didn't want to reveal the whole truth about who and what Rei was until the last possible moment

Sounds reasonable enough... Though it wasn't really fair to confuse us just for the sake of building up some big plot revelation... was it?

Kaji: However, the Commander and Ritchan have also kept something secret from you. This!
Misato: This is... Eva? No... Is this...
Kaji: Yes. The key to Second Impact and everything since, the starting point of everything. This is Adam.
Misato: Adam? Honestly, Kaji, do you really expect me to believe that bullcrap? I watched episode #08, you know! I may sound like a bimbo in the dub, but I'm not a complete idiot.
Kaji: Heh, sorry, Katsuragi. But, you know, Anno does pay me good money to manipulate the audience for the sake of his blatant plot contrivances.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 07:51 GMT

[Sharp-kun [ANF]]

As far as the whole deception issue, I still can't think of any real good reasons for muddling Lilith's identity. Would it have really made any difference if we were told who she was in episode #15?

Well, we know that each episode was pretty much written at the time, with only the overall story being planned in advance. It's always possible he suddenly decided to shove Lilith in ^^;;;

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 10:24 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

Well, we know that each episode was pretty much written at the time, with only the overall story being planned in advance. It's always possible he suddenly decided to shove Lilith in ^^;;;

I dunno... It seems to me that her special relationship with EVA-01 was planned ahead of time, considering that they call Sho a "TEST TYPE" from the very beginning and the first time we see Lil, her legs are missing and she is bleeding from... you know where, i.e., in the state resulting from Shogouki's genesis. Not to mention the whole Rei-Lilith connection.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 10:30 GMT

[Sharp-kun [ANF]]

I dunno... It seems to me that her special relationship with EVA-01 was planned ahead of time, considering that they call Sho a "TEST TYPE" from the very beginning and the first time we see Lil, her legs are missing and she is bleeding from... you know where, i.e., in the state resulting from Shogouki's genesis. Not to mention the whole Rei-Lilith connection.

"Test-Type" doesn't really relate to Lilith though. It could refer to a final design before the full production model for example. Not a prototype as with 00, but a "full frills" version to iron out any faults in systems not on 00.
The creation of 01 doesn't relate to Lilith, it could just have easily have been Adam, as no mention of Lilith has been made by that point. Up till then thinking "EVA-01 was made from Adam's legs" doesn't contradict anything.
The actual connection between Lilith and Rei wasn't made until Ep 24. Before then there were hints, but Anno could just have easily taken a completely different direction with them. Looking back with hindsight, yes, some things seem obviously to point to Lilith, but really, at that time in the series they could be anything. Its not till EoE that the EVA-01/Lilith and Rei/Lilith connection are positivly made.

Its quite possible he planned for Lilith from the beginning, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he stuck it in at the last minute. I'm surprised we didn't hear at least some mention of the name earlier, just to foreshadow.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 10:41 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

I'm not sure how seriously I can take the idea that Anno was "making it up as he goes"; certainly from #14 on, the story unfolds in such a complex, tightly integrated way that I think he had to have had all the main story elements mapped out in his mind already (recall also, btw, how in the original, pre-production proposed episode outlines that MDWigs has posted, it was planned even then, for example, that we would find out "the truth" about Rei in #23). I believe that from #21 on, the story was firmly set as to where it was going, it was just a matter of trying to cram all that story into a mere six episodes, with the result that many scenes are presented in a very spare, subtle fashion, where the dramatic import of the scene isn't spelled out, but relies on the audience filling in the blanks of what is being implied by the almost 'telegraphic' dialogue (enhanced, of course, by the significant symbolic and informational content of the images...)

Edit: When we see Rei on the street near the beginning of #01, that may not necessarily imply that she is Lilith, but it certainly does imply that something very uncanny is up with her character; something more than just being a clone (being a clone doesn't, in and of itself, entail any special ability to manifest one's existence in more than one place at a time). I think it should be obvious that Anno had something big (har har) in mind for Rei from the start.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 12:05 GMT

[Sharp-kun [ANF]]

I'm not sure how seriously I can take the idea that Anno was "making it up as he goes"; certainly from #14 on, the story unfolds in such a complex, tightly integrated way that I think he had to have had all the main story elements mapped out in his mind already (recall also, btw, how in the original, pre-production proposed episode outlines that MDWigs has posted, it was planned even then, for example, that we would find out "the truth" about Rei in #23). I believe that from #21 on, the story was firmly set as to where it was going, it was just a matter of trying to cram all that story into a mere six episodes, with the result that many scenes are presented in a very spare, subtle fashion, where the dramatic import of the scene isn't spelled out, but relies on the audience filling in the blanks of what is being implied by the almost 'telegraphic' dialogue (enhanced, of course, by the significant symbolic and informational content of the images...)

From what I've read online here and on other forums, and from talking to Wigs, Anno had a general plan for the series but by the second half were writing a lot of it as they went along. I'll see if I can dig up threads when I get home.
Things like the EVA-Series were obviously planned early on, despite their late appearence. Lilith on the other hand is never even mentioned until Ep 24, not even a little bit of the foreshadowing so many other plot points got.

Edit: When we see Rei on the street near the beginning of #01, that may not necessarily imply that she is Lilith, but it certainly does imply that there is something very uncanny that is up with her character; something more than just being a clone (being a clone doesn't, in and of itself, entail any special ability to manifest one's existence in more than one place at a time). I think it should be obvious that Anno had something big (har har) in mind for Rei from the start.

Its obvious that Anno did have something in mind for Rei, but up until Ep 24 there is nothing to suggest its to do with a being like Lilith. There are any number of ways that he could have played it out.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 16:09 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

Its obvious that Anno did have something in mind for Rei, but up until Ep 24 there is nothing to suggest its to do with a being like Lilith. There are any number of ways that he could have played it out.

Well, I certainly disagree with "nothing to suggest". There are hints in Rei's monologue in #14, and certainly some definite non-verbal hints in #14 and #23.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 16:21 GMT

[Sharp-kun [ANF]]

Well, I certainly disagree with "nothing to suggest". There are hints in Rei's monologue in #14, and certainly some definite non-verbal hints in #14 and #23.

They suggest that Rei is different in some way, but they make no connection at all to Lilith herself. Instead we get "Lilith!" thrown up in the last few minutes of Ep 24. He could have made a slightly different Kaworu, and made a Rei/Adam connection with no problems. Before that point there are no solid connections between Rei and Lilith, just that Rei is different, and some vagueish hints along those lines.

Rei being "different" in itself doesn't mean a connection to Lilith. As I said, Anno obviously planned stuff for Rei from the outset, but I get the impression that the specific Lilith conection was only decided late in the series. If Lilith was planned early on I would have expected a few subtle hints about there being another SoL or something along those lines - there's nothing until Kaworu's revelation. When the EVA Series warrents several mentions from the beginning, why does something like Lilith get none?

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 16:46 GMT

[Shin-seiki [ANF]]

They suggest that Rei is different in some way, but they make no connection at all to Lilith herself. Instead we get "Lilith!" thrown up in the last few minutes of Ep 24. He could have made a slightly different Kaworu, and made a Rei/Adam connection with no problems. Before that point there are no solid connections between Rei and Lilith, just that Rei is different, and some vagueish hints along those lines.

I suppose this comes down to how one chooses to take the hints that are there; for example:
#14:
Rei: I am myself. This object is me, the figure which forms me.
This is the me that is visible, though it feels as if this is not me.
A strange feeling.
My body seems as if it is melting.
I cannot see myself. My figure is fading away.
I am aware of someone else.
Who is there before me[/u]?

which is followed up on in #25:

Rei: But, there's someone else who is the true you[/u].

You don't know her.

Because you don't want to see that, you are trying to run away.

For myself, I find it hard to swallow, that Anno himself didn't know the answer of who this mysterious "someone" was, when he had Rei pose the question in #14. It's an ambiguous point, because the name "Lilith" doesn't come up until #24, but I think the whole Rei/Kaworu-Lilith/Adam deal was contemplated from the beginning. I think he was just deliberately saving it as a big, mind-bending revelation for the end of the series.






Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 17:32 GMT

[Reichu [ANF]]

"Test-Type" doesn't really relate to Lilith though.

In the grand scheme of things, that what I thought it referred to... That she was the subject by which an alternative means of creating an Eva was tested.

The creation of 01 doesn't relate to Lilith, it could just have easily have been Adam, as no mention of Lilith has been made by that point. Up till then thinking "EVA-01 was made from Adam's legs" doesn't contradict anything.

It contradicts the fact that we are told the embryo in #08 is Adam. Initially, we are lead to believe that the 'underground giant' is Adam after having 'restored himself' further, but that hardly explains why Adam would be in a state that we later discover is due to the creation of an Eva. If you follow my meaning, anyhow.

Originally posted on: 05-Oct-2004, 08:25 GMT

[Daishi [ANF]]

I dunno. I think a lot of writers and artists like for their fans to believe they know what they're doing, but most of writing is on the spot inspiration.

Originally posted on: 04-Oct-2004, 21:30 GMT