(Third Annual) Lilim Design Contest! (Afterthoughts)

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(Third Annual) Lilim Design Contest! (Afterthoughts)

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Postby Chowwow » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:56 am

Attention EvaGeeks!

I am requesting volunteers to participate in a design Contest, open to all who are interested.

The Lilim Design Contest (Updated May 1, 2011)

The Assignment:
Create your own, original human character who could feasibly exist in the world of Neon Genesis Evangelion. It would be desirable to pay attention to personal histories, character traits, plot involvement, and artistic quality.

The objectives of this Competition:
    1. Attempt to test and rally the creative energies of EvaGeeks and organize them into a cohesive force.
    2. To exercise creative freedom and have fun while under supervision and the restrictions of a deadline, a focused goal, and a few rules.
    3. To introduce a new Character from a Designer's own projects to a new audience.
    4. To produce a unique Character that may play a role in a future Evangelion-based fan project produced by yours truly.

Time Table :
The Contest begins during the beginning of the fall season and ends during the winter season. This should give Designers approximately three and a half months to complete their work. Please see the schedule below on the second post for specific dates.

Registration
I will accept registrations from those who wish to join the contest as either a Designer or Judge from the first day of September to December 8. Registrants do not have to be EvaGeeks members, as I will be the moderator for the content that will be posted later.

All participants are to register for their position by announcing their role in this contest by posting it on this thread. Your entrance into the contest will be confirmed when I make a post or update an old one that lists you as an entrant. One can register for the contest at anytime up until December 8. Anyone may withdraw their registration and/or Designs anytime they wish upon notification.

Submission:
A Presentation date will be assigned for each Designer at least a week before Presentation week. Designers may request a time period that is most convenient for them. Characters must be submitted to me via e-mail or PM at least one hour before their day of presentation, 12:00 AM EST. I will be responsible for formally posting the Character for Presentation.

Presentations:
I will cooperate with Designers to make grammar and format edits to the document if they so desire. Each Lilim will be presented one day at a time for all to see and marvel. Designers are free to put further work into their Character until the assigned time for their unveiling comes, so long as the updates are on time.

Late Dates/Rescheduling:
There is no penalty for missing deadlines, however, timing does speak of an individual’s work ethics. Those who do not submit their Character before their Presentation time will receive another chance to present. If there are any late entries, there will be a one week window after the latest Presentation date for all late Designers to submit their Characters. Late entries that are given to me before that window will have to wait until that week, as we cannot move all of the dates of other Presentations. If the week has elapsed without a submission by the Designer, the Designer is automatically withdrawn from the Contest.

Deliberation:
The Judges will be given one week (starting after the day of the last Presentation) to decide on their choices for winners. I will arrange to be available to all Judges via AIM, PM or Ventrillo during the middle of the week of deliberations to get a situation report on votes and moderate decisions. Judges should aim to submit their votes on the second-to-last day of the week. I will spend the last day going over the votes and taking any last-second decisions before presenting the Awards. If required, Judges can obtain a weeklong extension for deliberations if a majority vote is made to do so.

Awarding:
Awards will be presented on a two per day basis until all have been awarded. At this point, all decisions are final unless the Judges have a majority vote to appeal the deadline.

Post-Presentations/Post-Contest
While we are waiting for the Judges to decide and/or after all is said and done, the Afterthoughts period will commence. Anyone can chime in on the Designs and the results of the Awards, Designers can give their final thoughts over the Contest and their Characters, and plans can be laid for the next Contest.

Positions:
The two positions up for registration are:
    Designers: These are the warriors of this effort, and kudos will be awarded to those who can deliver on the goods. Anyone who wishes to participate may do so on his or her own volition within the registration period. Rules for Designers are described in the indicated section below. An unlimited number of Designers are allowed to enter.

    Judges: Those who will be reading the entries and nominating them for Awards; all who can read these words and think that they can be good critics are qualified. Rules and roles for Judges will be described below in the indicated section.

    There is only need for at most seven Judges. A number less than seven would be acceptable, but an odd number of Judges is ultimately needed. For the sake of maintaining a fair democracy, the maximum number of Judges is preferable. If there is an even number of Judges or if there is a 7-way tie during Judgment, I will step in to cast the equalizing vote.

Purpose of this Thread:
This thread will be the where the rules and details about the Contest are displayed for reference, general discussions about Designs and rules take place, and where all of the entries of the Contest will be collected and posted for all to see.

Role of the Audience:
Anyone not interested in joining this volunteer force is free to view and discuss about anything they see in this thread as they see fit. Contributions to discussions and leaving comments would be greatly appreciated. Just know that anyone who is not registered as a Judge cannot vote.

Chowwow’s Role:
I will maintain the rules and organization of this contest and adjust things according to the situation of this event at hand.

I shall design my own Character that I have been working on for some time. I will fall under the rules prescribed to all Designers, with some added constraints. This Character will be posted only after all others have been completed and presented. My Character is automatically disqualified from winning any Awards and cannot be voted on by the Judges – though all should feel free to critique it all the same.

I will, if needed, act as the odd Judge for Award nominations. I will also be subject to the same rules for all judges.

Rules For Designers:

    1. All Characters must be believable within the universe of Neon Genesis Evangelion.
    • No impossible-to-believe Characters. This is NGE, no one is perfect.
    • Characters submitted must be human – this is the Lilim Design Contest.
    • I am aware of a loophole that I'm willing to over look: people who are truly Angels (i.e. Kaworu Nagisa). As long as there is no overt mention of their Angelic nature (i.e. any mention of A.T Fields or statements that "he is really an Angel") and the Character is portrayed as a human being, the Character is allowed.

    2. All creations must be the original concept of the Designer.
    • No extra-conical characters (i.e. Mana Kirishima) are allowed.
    • Reworkings of unfinished or incomplete characters (i.e. Yui Ichijo) are allowed.
    • Characters from a Designer's own fanworks, past, present, or future (i.e. Smith of The Tennant of Room 404 or Akira Katsuragi) are allowed.
    • Designers are well within their right to be “inspired” by other sources, how much inspirational influence allowed is something up to the Designer’s Judgment. Honest coincidences are certainly allowed, but know that a Character too heavily influenced by another pre-existing concept may lose favor when being selected for an Award.
    • Designers can either work alone or in groups with people in or outside EvaGeeks.org. Collaborations and partnerships are accepted, but be sure to give credit to where it’s due. How work is divided is up to the Designers, but all individuals must be cited according to their contribution to the project so that all participants will receive recognition.
    • Fellow Designers already submitting their own Characters can contribute to each other’s Designs as well. While I would prefer that people work on one concept and one concept only, be sure to cite each other.

    3. All entries must be kept secret until the scheduled release date.
    • The rest of this thread will be used to discuss ideas, recommendations, and general terms about design concepts between all fellow Designers and others interested, but refrain from disclosing specific details in this thread. This is to minimize creativity contamination as much as possible and get as many fresh and developed ideas as possible.
    • Fellow Designers contributing to each other’s Characters should keep details of their own projects confidential and on a need-to-know-basis.

    4. All Characters will be judged on their own merit and as they are when they are Presented.
    • Designers cannot make appeals to the Judges on the quality of their work; the Presentation must speak for the Designer.

    5. All designs entered here will be fully credited as the work of their respective Designer.
    • The original Designer will be involved in all possible future edits to the concept and is free to withdraw his/her Lilim for any reason. In return, my associates and I are not allowed to replicate or emulate the Character and call it our own without the permission of the original Designer.
    • All who may wish to borrow a Character from this Contest for their own purposes must obtain permission from the original Designer. I nor my associates have any ownership of the original and will not disclose further details on them.

    6. Designers can only submit one Character per Contest.
    • Multiple characters by the same Designer in a single Contest are not allowed. If a Designer has more than one idea, then he/she should consider entering one of them for next year’s Contest.

    7. Chowwow is a dirty lolicon and is REALLY into shows like Card Captor Sakura. You should never invite him to see your little sister. Paradoxically, he is also a MILF hunter, probably because he was never nursed as an infant. Which, in that case, means it would not be a good idea to let him see your mother either.
    • If you can read this message, and want something out of it, please send a PM to me with the subject heading "Uh, Chowwow, about the rules..." and copy and paste all of rule 7 (including this bullet text) into the message. You will later receive a PM with further instructions. You may win a special surprise. Do not mention any of this to anyone (how to see this message or what it says, etc.), or you may lose your benefits.

Recommended format for Character Presentations:
This format is only a suggestion that I feel would make it easier to understand your concept. Feel free to diverge, add or subtract from this format:

---------------------------------------
    General Data:
    Full Name/Nickname: i.e. Chester Someguy
    Age: i.e. 99 years
    Measurements: i.e. Height, Weight, etc.
    Occupation/Rank: i.e. NERV chimney sweep.

    References/Name Origin: Sources that helped inspire or direct your creation. The origin of the Character’s name (such as what Japanese ship he is named after) should go here as well.

    Physical Description: This space allows you to communicate in text the look of your Character. Provide as much or as little detail as you wish. Feel free to include illustrations that would be of great help in visualizing the Character.

    Personality : This space is used to demonstrate your Characters personality and quirks.

    Background History: Describe any part of the Character’s past that is deemed relevant.

    Career / Achievements / Goals: What your character does for a living and what they have done to make some thing of themselves - if at all. Their ambitions for their future and their modus operandi should be placed here as well.

    Involvement in NGE: What efforts your character has done to ripple through the whole of the NGE universe - if they ever did.

    Fate: What becomes of your character at the end of your scenario. Happy end, bad end, or no end at all?

    Names of Designer and all contributors: Remember, give credit to where it’s due!
---------------------------------------

Rules For Judges:

    1. Judge all Designs fairly based on the artistic quality, character development, and the perceived effort put onto the Character.
    • Judges cannot contact Designers and discuss or arrange anything about Awards outside of this thread.
    • Judge Characters on their own merit without any regard to the identity of the Designer.

    2. All Character designs are eligible to win any Award.
    • The reasoning behind their nomination must be sound.
    • While it is possible for one to win all of the Awards, please think carefully and give considerations to other Characters.
    • Chowwow’s entry is automatically disqualified for winning any Award.

    3. A Designer can sign up to be a Judge or a Judge can be a Designer if they so choose.
    • By being both a Judge and a Designer, he/she cannot vote for their own concept for an Award. This can work as a handicap against him/her when time comes for the nominations.
    • Be sure to be registered for both positions if you are trying for both.

    4. Judges should feel free to post their reviews/comments of each concept as anyone else in this thread and make their feelings public knowledge.
    • Judges will receive a copy of the Presentation as it is to be posted by me on the first day of Judgment week.
    • Constructive criticism is recommend.
    • Discussions can be public but votes for the Awards will be kept confidential and only I will know who voted for what.

    5. Judges will have seven days after the last Designer-made Angel is posted to officially deliberate and cast their vote for Awards. Voting must be confidential.
    • Refrain from making promises on nominations.
    • Judges are free to discuss with other Judges and myself over nominations at anytime.
    • Judges should maintain contact with me to find out what everyone is voting on while deliberating. I will be available during the third or fourth day of deliberations to discuss awarding via IM, PM or Ventrillo.
    • If necessary, the Judges can vote to have no more than one more week to deliberate.

    6. A majority vote is needed for a Design to win an Award.
    • Two votes is the minimum number of votes needed to win an Award.
    • Chowwow will place the tie-breaking vote for a hotly contested Award if Judges do not come to an agreement. However, if a situation arises where the minimum number of votes to win have not been met, it is not considered a tie and Chowwow cannot vote to select a winner.
    • Judges have the right to refuse to vote for a nominee for an Award. A Judge may simply leave the space on his ballot blank and leave a reason as to why they did not vote for a winner.
    • If there is a hotly contested issue, we must discuss online via e-mail, IM or PM.

Awards:
These are the Awards that are available. They will be presented two at a time each day after Judgments have been finalized.
While it is nice to win, Designers should focus on putting out a fine product first and foremost.

---------------------------------------
    Most Badass: Does your Character burn with manly fury? This prize goes to the Character who proves him/herself as the toughest badass, by demonstrating skills, strengths, and special techniques; as seen in their profile.
    Most Psycho: Your guy’s just a little too violent? Think he/she could give Asuka a run for her money in a fight? Does she reach for the axe when someone spites her, or does she rape neighborhood dogs before eating them? This award goes to the character who displays the greatest, violently psychotic tendencies or expresses stress in the most disturbing or non-conventional ways. Attention will be paid to Character personality descriptions and past actions.
    Most Depressive: Your guy just a little too blue? Think he can out-whine or break-down worse than Shinji on a bad day? Did he lose his Mom, Dad, little sister, best friend and his pet rock all in one day to a killer with a penchant for fishing hooks and razors, and all he got was a cliché t-shirt? This award is given to the Character who is the most emotionally scarred and expresses it in a way that is non-aggressive against others (but possibly suicidal). Attention will be given to Character personality descriptions and past actions.

    Fanservice: This award goes to the Character voted most likely to follow through on Misato’s promises of eye candy after every preview of NGE. Attention will be paid to Character descriptions.
    Cutest: Think your Character can compete with Rei? Or Maya? Or Pen-Pen? This award goes to the Character with the cutest traits; as seen either from their illustrations or actions as described in text.
    Quirkiest: Is your Character just a memorable guy? Is there something about him that makes him sparkle with others, even if he doesn’t really do anything important? This prize is given to the Character who just seems endearing and interesting without dragging too many people into his drama. Character histories and personality descriptions will play roles in choosing a winner.

    Best Death: This award goes to the character whose fate leads to the most interesting, gruesome or memorable death in the contest.
    Best Job: Is your Character a hot-shot at the work place? Does the Character have a career that nets him/her a lot of glory, influence, or – best yet – sets one of the key building blocks that leads to NGE’s events? This award is presented to the Character with the most interesting job. Back history and personal descriptions are key to earning a nomination for this.
    Worst Job: Is your Character’s job driving him/her insane, more so than otherwise? Not necessarily for janitors or cafeteria workers, this goes to those whose jobs are a significant contributor to their distress, misfortune and misery. Eligibility determination is the same for the Best Job award.

    Best Presentation: This award goes out to the Character that was presented to the audience in an attractive and enjoyable format. To make a description of a fictional character enjoyable to read is a praise-worthy talent. Attention will be paid to format, grammar, and use of word play, illustrations or the like.
    Best Design: This award goes to the Character that has the most interesting or attractive psychical design. Whether it is a sexy model or old fart is not the point; it’s the amount of detail and effort that is visible on the skin of the Character that counts. Attention will be paid to illustrations and detailed text descriptions of the Character.
    Best Story: This award is given to the Designer who imbued their Character with the most engrossing, interesting, or memorable story. The progression of events from their past, career, ambitions, and ultimate fate will do well at determining a winner.
    Best in Contest: This is given to the Character who is, overall, the best designed and well-rounded individual in the entire contest. The whole entry will be Judged against all of the others to determine the winner.

    Designer of the Year: Designers who entered the Angel Design Contest and this one for the year are eligible for this Award. Merit will be given to how a veteran Designer fared in both Contests overall.
    Most Awards: This Award given last. It is presented to the Designer who received the most number of Awards in this Contest. Given to reward the best winner.
---------------------------------------

Voting Ballot for all Judges:
This is the ballot that all Judges must fill out and return to me via PM within Judgment week. To use this format:

    1. Click quote on this post.
    2. Select and copy the ballot.
    3. Paste onto a PM addressed to: “Chowwow”
    4. At the subject line, type: "LDC Ballot: (Judge's username)"
    5. Place your votes for each category and submit the PM.

-------------------------------------------
    __________________
    Badass:
    1.____
    2.____
    Explanation:
    __________________
    Psycho:
    1.____
    2.____
    Explanation:
    __________________
    Depressive:
    1.____
    2.____
    Explanation:
    __________________
    Fanservice:
    1.____
    2.____
    Explanation:
    __________________
    Cutest:
    1.____
    2.____
    Explanation:
    __________________
    Quirkiest:
    1.____
    2.____
    Explanation:
    __________________
    Death:
    1.____
    2.____
    Explanation:
    __________________
    Best Job:
    1.____
    2.____
    Explanation:
    __________________
    Worst Job:
    1.____
    2.____
    Explanation:
    __________________
    Presentation:
    1.____
    2.____
    Explanation:
    __________________
    Design:
    1.____
    2.____
    Explanation:
    __________________
    Story:
    1.____
    2.____
    Explanation:
    __________________
    Best In Contest:
    1.____
    2.____
    Explanation:
    __________________
    Designer of the Year (when applicable):
    1.____
    2.____
    Explanation:
    __________________
-------------------------------------------

That is it for the rules. Good luck everyone!

Season 1 is over! See Pages 6 - 7 for the winners!

Season 2 is over! See Pages 14 - 16 for the winners!

Season 3 is on now!
Last edited by Chowwow on Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:40 am, edited 38 times in total.

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LDC Contest Archives and Schedules

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Postby Chowwow » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:59 am

Lilim Design Contest Archives

2008: The First Lilim Design Contest:
Image

Entrants:
Winners:

2009: The Second Annual Contest
Image

Entrants:
Winners:


2011: The Third Annual Contest
Image

Entrants:
Winners:


The Schedule:
    May 1 (Sunday): Start of contest. Registration and research and development for Designs begins.
    August 14 (Sunday): End of registration. Presentations begin the next day.
    August 15 – Posting of last Design: Presentation of Characters, one day at a time. Judges and audience view each one and make comments about each Design as they wish.
    Day after posting of last Design – Seven days later: Judges deliberate and nominate Characters for Awards.
    Day after last day of deliberations: Award ceremony, Awards are presented each day based on central themes until all have been Awarded.
    Day after all Awards given: Afterthoughts/Regrets week. Designers discuss their parting thoughts and discussions for future Contests are made.

As of July 16, 11:49 PM EST:

Designers:
    tehprognoob
    Holy Diver
    Archaiel

Judges:
    NemZ

Presentation Schedule for LDC 2011:

    Aug. 15: Archaiel
    Aug. 16: Holy Diver
    Aug. 17: tehprognoob

Come check us out!
Last edited by Chowwow on Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:59 am, edited 84 times in total.

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Postby Action_Bastard » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:00 am

Ooooooh, I like this. I'll watch it.
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Postby TheAyanamiOtaku » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:46 am

I am unsure if I can do this because of time constraints and my responsibilities with the RPG fanfic. I will think about this.
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Postby NemZ » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:47 am

No ideas yet, but I'll come up with something. These creative tasks are always fun.
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Postby Zaiku » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:50 am

I want to take part in this, but I'm not sure yet, I want to ask a few questions first.

1. Do we have to make them fit into the story without destroying canon?

2. Do you want a description and picture? Or is one or the other fine?

3. Can our character be in school?
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Postby pat457 » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:51 am

Let's see if my schedule will permit this. :)
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Postby TheAyanamiOtaku » Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:00 am

pat457 wrote:Let's see if my schedule will permit this.


Seconded
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Postby Chowwow » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:44 am

1. Do we have to make them fit into the story without destroying canon?


You can do whatever you feel like.

If you want to submit something for me to use in my future project, I would like that you work your character around NGE's canon: they exist within it and may have had a hand in some major events, but they do not change the events of the story or the feelings of the characters in any significant way.

However, I have left this contest open to completely original characters for projects outside of mine; which is why I invited the likes of BobBq's Smith and Reichu's Akira to be possible participants. If you wnat to introduce a Character from your own fanworks or do something completely new just for this contest, then more power to you!

2. Do you want a description and picture? Or is one or the other fine?


Again, whatever you feel like.

For the audience, it would be ideal to have both a description and an illustration. This usually isn't a problem for many Designers. But it is ultimately your choice as to which ever one you want to put for your Character. Do what you feel is best and do your best at it!

3. Can our character be in school?


Certainly they can! Student is an occupation!

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Postby Action_Bastard » Thu Oct 02, 2008 11:51 am

You know what, I might actually enter as a contestant. I wrote a little something in this thread I made: [url]http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5587&highlight=[/url] and I think I may go into more on that. It is my 5th post on that thread that I am referring to.

I am a shit artist, so I may not have an illustration....unless someone of artistic talent can draw me up something for my character. That is actually a request for someone to do that for me, if they are able.
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Postby Formless One » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:16 pm

Everyone raise your hand if you would like to see me do Yae from the roleplay thread.

If yes, I too might need some one else to help me in the art department. I can't draw, and my art class hasn't even started yet. :(
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:27 pm

Formless One: *raises hand*

I'd consider doing this contest, but doubt I'd have the time. ;_;
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Postby BobBQ » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:14 pm

Chowwow wrote:...which is why I invited the likes of BobBq's Smith...

I fear the consequences, but all right.

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Postby Reichu » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:34 pm

Chowwow wrote:However, I have left this contest open to completely original characters for projects outside of mine; which is why I invited the likes of BobBq's Smith and Reichu's Akira to be possible participants.

Akira = Dr. Katsuragi, who is canon to the show, albeit cryptic as all hell. I made up a lot of stuff for him, but he's not an "original character" in the usual sense.

Long story short, if "Akira Katsuragi" got in, you'd have to explicitly expand the contest to include interpretations of "mysterioso" canonical characters, such as: Asuka's dad, Asuka's step-mom, Toji's sister, Hikari's sisters, and, uh, Nozoku Takahashi.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
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Postby Formless One » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:04 pm

^ How does that make them any less OC? Just because they implicitly existed in the shows timeline does not make them characters in said timeline: you can still develop their personality, their history, their part to play, etc. For example, my character, Yae, is implicitly in the show as there has to be someone to pilot unit 04 (I know that a lot of people would have it be Kensuki, Hikari, or some other minor character that was part of the show, but that would just be wish fulfillment, as there are other candidates canoniacly). To extrapolate that she was actually part of the test that went wrong twists with canon only slightly; otherwise she is inferred to exist in canon. However, that does not make her a canon character as there simply was no character in that role in the show. Its a hole that you get to fill. That, I think, is one of the uses of an OC.

That's kinda wordy, but yeah.

EDIT: I made it clearer, if no less wordy.
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Postby Action_Bastard » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:30 pm

OK, so I would like to be added as a contestant. All I request first is for someone to work along with me to do the illustration(s).


TO ALL: Please let me know if you would like to work with me. I will need an example of your work to further see if I will accept you. You will get half the credit of the awards if we receive any. For the artist I choose, I will PM my specification of my character to you.
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Postby Chowwow » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:43 pm

Long story short, if "Akira Katsuragi" got in, you'd have to explicitly expand the contest to include interpretations of "mysterioso" canonical characters, such as: Asuka's dad, Asuka's step-mom, Toji's sister, Hikari's sisters, and, uh, Nozoku Takahashi.


Excuse me while I pull my foot out of my mouth, Miss Reichu.

Actually, that is precisely the kind of thing I am also allowing in this contest. Unlike the Angel Design Contest, which called for all presently existing Angels off limits, I'm gonna allow poorly-known side characters to be used as "concept anchors" for those who want them. As a matter of fact, I'm gonna do it too. If anything, I might actually need these kinds of characters for what I'm gonna do.

The logic being, since these characters are so poorly known that they only exist as two or three words in another character's lips, I consider them to be unique Characters if one can build a scenario around them. This is especially the case with Akira, whose details are so creative that and out there that I actually consider it a coincidence that he even so much as share the surname of Dr. Katsuragi.

This is similar as to why I decided that unfinished Angels in the last contest and unused Characters in this contest were allowed: since there is so little information on them, they are not really significant and I consider them as merely creative plots for Designers can use to plant their seeds.

OK, so I would like to be added as a contestant. All I request first is for someone to work along with me to do the illustration(s).


Let me call in a few favors first before I register you. I might be able to get someone to help. If nothing else, however, submitting a Character without illustrations is fine by me, so no worries from me.

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Postby SeanTucker » Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:20 pm

I wouldn't mind doing a pic-less character.
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Postby NemZ » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:27 am

...and now, thanks to clarifications, I do have an idea.

Oh, this is gonna be fun!
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Postby Zaiku » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:23 am

Oh another question:

About the Fanservice award, is there gonna be one for a male and a female lilim? As, the judges are likely to be of different genders and so are the characters that are being designed. So it would only be fair that this award is given to a male and female character. Not just the female who has overly massive breasts and forget everything else and considerations.
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