Evangelion Anatomy

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Postby V » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:03 pm

an odd question

I do think it does, but

several art sketches, etc. show it without a jaw if it is unarmored

however, similar sketches show the same for Eva-02, which we later see in End of Eva with its mask ripped off as clearly having organic jaws and teeth. The armor just extends over the real teeth.

****So my view was that Eva-01 has "real teeth" and a "real jaw", and that they put a layer of armor over them, a layer of extra metal, but that there's still an organic jaw in there.

However, like, take episode 2; when the upper helmet falls off we don't see an upper jaw; does that mean there wasn't one? I don't know;
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Postby Action_Bastard » Sun Sep 28, 2008 1:51 pm

01 does indeed have teeth, we see them numerous times. On the episode 2 thing, I think that the evas wear a kind of "under armor" which might mask the outline of a jaw and teeth.
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Postby Zerogoki » Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:29 pm

Taken from my post in this thread:

"I always put that down to artistic licence when drawing naked evas...*snip*... Maybe it's just something like 'evas with no mouths/mouths closed = ethereal/human-like; evas with mouths open (i.e. teeth showing) - creepy and disturbing'..."
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Postby Reichu » Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:56 pm

V: Watch episodes 19, 20, and 26' again.

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:36 am

1) Discuss

or

2) Provide a Link to a discussion in progress prior to locking.

I was not able to find one, though I do recall a fairly robust discussion of this in the past.
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Postby V » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:28 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:1) Discuss

or

2) Provide a Link to a discussion in progress prior to locking.



I thought I was supposed to google-search the site instead of discussing it

(shrug)

well my quibble is that I was rewatching episode 2, and this cut seemed a bit odd:

Image

where the heck is Eva-01's upper jaw? Where are her teeth?

Surely, they didn't fall off?

Further, Groundwork of Eva draws it with no organic mouth at all when unarmored.

That said, given that Eva-02 obviously has an organic jaw.....maybe this is just animation confusion/error?

Because my running theory was that "it's got real teeth but there are armor plates coating and surrounding the original jaw"

but if you look at an unarmored eva head, say, the "exaggerated jawline" is obviously not part of the actual head, no more than Eva-01's horn is.

An Eva's organic head is actually fairly....cylindrical? but my point is that I don't see how the eva's actual head extends as far forward as the mouth does


that being said, it seems so obvious from Eva-02 that Evas are supposed to have real organic jaws, that I want to know if we should chalk this up, officially, to "artistic license": just as we say "Eva heights vary from 40 to 200 meters on-screen for artistic reasons (but if you have to give one figure, say "40 meters")....we should say "yeah, the facial armor orientation doesn't exactly match up with the shape of the head we've seen on unarmored Evas, but they still DO have teeth and this is just "artistic license" (and those Eva-01 unarmored drawings in Groundwork are simply false)

support?/oppose?
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Postby mrpanda » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:44 pm

Unit 01's eye sort of morphed from a blank spot on its head, its jaw could be the same.
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Postby Axell » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:22 pm

i think this is something that was changed as the series progressed. at first evas design was as shown above but then later changed so that they had normal eyes and teeth. the fact that they skip that little scene where the mask fall off of unit 1 in rebuild could indicate that anno was not happy with that design and changed it somewhere along the way(just my thoughts, no proof of course)

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Postby Reichu » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:13 pm

Couldn't find too much in the old threads; the discussion is pretty jumbled.

- Start of the Eva Fan-art Thread (Most of Nephilim's images are missing)
- Tangent in an LnY thread

There shouldn't be much argument over whether or not Eva-01 has a full set of chompers:

Image

But episode 02 tends to throw a lot of people off. Eva-01's head is depicted in an extremely distorted manner. The shape doesn't really seem right at all. Reposting for convenience:

Image

Notice the considerable discrepancies with the production drawings that Yamashita made.

We get a much more realistic head shape in episode 20...

Image
(Genga of the same, where Misato, Hyuga, and the umbilical bridge aren't in the way. Some slight differences from the final, but still useful.)

Image

...wherein the head actually follows the contours of the armor that normally covers it and there is a clear distinction between the upper and lower jaws (the latter aided, in part, by the fact that the teeth are bared).

However, there still isn't any point in the series at which we see an Eva with "sealed lips", so to speak. Here's what I mean (disregard the Santa get-up):

Image

There isn't even any (AFAIK) official artwork, at all, that unambiguously depicts "sealed lips". As a result of these circumstances, I've heard the proposal made that the mouth is "sealed over" by default, and the Evas have to spontaneously generate cleavage in the skin whenever they decide that they want to open up. The hypothesis seems to rely heavily upon old production drawings for support (also utilized by Sadamoto in his manga), which, as you can see, don't depict a mouth of any sort. But, then, they don't depict a lot of the things we know Evas have, like eyes, nostrils, a core, and (ten) toes, and it is otherwise inconsistent with the already internally inconsistent depictions of unarmored Evas in the show. Save for the design of the cybernetic implants in the upper back, which turns up in episode 13, this production art is dated and unreliable.

Long story short: "The Eva's mouths seal open and shut depending on whether or not they want to open their jaws" is a bit dubious and unnecessary, and it doesn't seem to take the full, terribly messy context into account.
:shrug:

Regarding the lack of "unambiguous" artwork, though, the aforementioned Yamashita art looks like it just might be giving Eva-01 upper and lower lips -- at least, in the drawings where her head is armored, which also makes any potential lips harder to see. X|
Last edited by Reichu on Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby V » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:01 pm

The shot of Eva-01 eating Zeruel's Precious Essence, isn't exactly applicable as they could still be the "metal jaws" not the organic ones; its not like it lost any head armor.

be that as it may, I wonder why they took the head armor off and wrapped it in bandages (it appears to be unarmored)

either way, at least by the end of the series they seem to have settled on exactly what was going on under the armor, and:

on my final analysis I, as I said before, am officially chalking this up to "animation confusion", the metal jaws are indeed supposed to slide over the real ones;

this concept art, which I had had access to, makes it more clear exactly what their ideas are

at no point was I arguing that they actually don't have teeth, I was questioning "what's going on with this odd shot in episode 2?" and happily, we see that they do indeed have teeth: apparently, as for that concept art, they tend to leave that out a lot when they draw it.

Of course this raises the question: "Do Evas have lips"? and really I saw it as more like a tear in their face with teeth in it that doesn't have lips or anythning, but that's neither here nor there:

Evas do indeed have teeth and the outer armor "toothy mouth" design is not something separate but supposed to be following the contours of the real jaw underneath it. Anything else is animation error/artistic license.

Thank you for discussing this.
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Postby ungenesis » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:29 pm

Similar to Reichu, I've always rationalized it that they simply 'grow' the mouth when they get hungry.

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Postby Reichu » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:58 pm

ungenesis wrote:Similar to Reichu, I've always rationalized it that they simply 'grow' the mouth when they get hungry.

I was actually rationalizing against this rationalization.

V wrote:The shot of Eva-01 eating Zeruel's Precious Essence, isn't exactly applicable as they could still be the "metal jaws" not the organic ones; its not like it lost any head armor.

They never really address where those red "exo-teeth" went, but there's little ambiguity that we're seeing the real teeth in episode 19, gums and all.

Best answer is that the Powers of Coolness forced the red thingies to retract under the helmet. The same thing happens in EoE. Incidentally, there's one shot where an animator "addresses" the problem --

Image

-- and has a couple of red "teeth" poking out.

I wonder why they took the head armor off and wrapped it in bandages (it appears to be unarmored)

Eva-01 may have lost the helmet on her own. The show never depicts what happened in the 19-20 interim.

at no point was I arguing that they actually don't have teeth

Might want to consider changing the topic title, in that case.

Of course this raises the question: "Do Evas have lips"? and really I saw it as more like a tear in their face with teeth in it that doesn't have lips or anythning, but that's neither here nor there

The available information is ambiguous. Eva-02 is depicted rather inconsistently (all three head closeups look different), but one of them actually does depict defined lips.

Image

This makes a good deal of sense: when we see the Evas' teeth, they're (...usually) encased in pinkish/reddish gums, which means there should be a "transition" somewhere between the gums and the Evas' normal skin. And, feasibly, this would be lips. The fact that we're always seeing the teeth bared would thus be purely circumstantial.

For the heck of it, I colored in Yamashita's drawings to highlight what I was talking about in my last post:

Image

The one on the right is rather confusing, but I attempted to draw attention to what LOOKS like a line separating upper and lower lip. I colored the apparent lower jaw green. In the one on the left, it almost looks like the jaw piece is tugging on the skin of an upper lip -- but it might just be me.

Thank you for discussing this.

Yer welcome. (Pardon the bout of moodiness...)

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Postby Action_Bastard » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:08 pm

Reichu, you are the master of explanation!
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Postby V » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:40 pm

based on

  • the shot of dead Eva-02's head
  • actually, how Eva-01's mouth opens in Rebuild, which shows this in more detail

I've come to a new conclusion;

up until now, I seriously always thought that the breakdown of the "mouth region" was

1-purple outer armor shaped like a mouth outline
2-the red inner (gum-like) armor
3-white-colored armor which COATS the teeth, like another layer of enamel


but upon closer inspection of the Scriptures, I have concluded that it doesn't cover them entirely like a coat:

the ACTUAL way its mouth-region breaks down is:

1-purple outer armor with a line for the mouth
2-the red inner armor does not totally cover the teeth; it's an outer ridge (as I had first thought) rather, its this u-shaped ridge that only "protects" the outer side of the teeth. ....the equivalent of if I were to take red pieces of cardboard and stick them between my teeth and cheeks; there's only one "plate" of cardboard there and its not coating my teeth, just protecting the OUTER edge
3-the white-colored stuff we see isn't "teeth covered in white-painted metal". Those are indeed the actual teeth.


Solved.

So the big thing was figuring out what the heck that red stuff was; really, it helped to rewatch Rebuild of Eva, it shows this better.

I don't think a mouth "forms when it wants one" or something that's needlessly complicated and not supported: I think episode 02 just didn't animate the scene quite well enough.

New question: do Evas (unarmored) have eyelids? it does not appear so
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Postby Zaque » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:44 pm

It almost seems as if the eva (the head anyway) doesn't have natural skin, instead it being replaced with whatever those metallic looking plates are (perhaps it is keeping the skin from growing or something, which might explain the bloodiness of the bandage picture. i.e. nerv removing the skin that grew after eva01 awakening (which effectively replaced the "restraints", btw)). However, this doesn't explain the burnt hands in ep03. Just a thought...
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Postby V » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:56 pm

we have not yet determined if they have eyelids yet; or why, for that matter, sometimes the eyepieces in the armor are opaque white and at other times the real green eyes shine through in definition so you can see even the irises

further, we have not addressed the issue of why Eva eyes look like vaginas

(V dodges as a mountain of photo evidence is thrown at his head of the vaginal imagery in Eva)
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Postby Reichu » Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:24 am

Zaque wrote:It almost seems as if the eva (the head anyway) doesn't have natural skin

I don't see any absence of skin in the images that have been posted...

which might explain the bloodiness of the bandage picture.

Hard to say where the blood is from without knowing what happened in the 19-20 interim. More of Zeruel's blood? Small injuries resulting from the loss of the facial and jaw pieces?

V wrote:we have not yet determined if they have eyelids yet

In episode 19, they stylistically show Eva-01 "narrowing" her eyes (depicted as white slits at that point), and, later, right before she stands up after eating, you can see her blink.

or why, for that matter, sometimes the eyepieces in the armor are opaque white and at other times the real green eyes shine through in definition so you can see even the irises

Artistic license. More here.

further, we have not addressed the issue of why Eva eyes look like vaginas

To increase the Evas' sex appeal, of course. Or possibly it's a reference to a hideous fetish we'd best not speak of.

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Postby NemZ » Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:11 am

Reichu wrote:Small injuries resulting from the loss of the facial and jaw pieces?


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Postby Zaque » Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:56 am

Reichu wrote:I don't see any absence of skin in the images that have been posted...

The color of the head and the color of the hands don't match, moreover there's a metallic gleam of the head in that one picture of eva01 with half of it's "helmet". Also in that picture of eva02 with it's head mauled, unless you consider multitone gray with words on it as a normal human skin color, it really looks like a "wrapping" that Nerv put on the eva's heads. Another thing would be in ep19, before the arm was regenerated, the "armor" at the base of the wound was inline with the new arm that grew such that it "tore" after the new skin "took it's place". (also as an unrelated but semi supporting note, those simulation bodies in ep13 don't have skin either (although their hands seemingly do for some reason. hm.... I see a consistency here...))
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Postby Reichu » Sat Oct 04, 2008 12:48 pm

Zaque wrote:The color of the head and the color of the hands don't match

This is due to the lighting in the episode 02 scene. Check out the helmet -- it looks red here.

moreover there's a metallic gleam of the head

It just looks shiny, almost cetacean-like. Doesn't make it "metallic" by any means.

For more shine, check out skin on the hand in episode 03. Eva-02's head also has some of these "highlights", albeit not as prominent, in one cut.

Image
(Follow the upper contour of the head and you should see them.)

Also in that picture of eva02 with it's head mauled, unless you consider multitone gray with words on it as a normal human skin color

The "words", I would suspect, are artificial markings put there by her keepers. Regarding the skin color, Eva-02 is blue-grey all over (...sans a couple of cuts with some delightful coloration errors). They let us know prior to EoE that she wasn't normal, even by Eva standards. The rest of the Evas have red blood, for one thing.

Image
(Take note that this screenshot's contrast is absurdly high. It's all I got at the moment.)

Image

Skin (in order of appearance):

Image
The skin is being ripped off as a result of the somewhat "insensitive" removal of the torso armor.

Image
Another head closeup. Lots of inconsistencies with the head closeups that follow. (Although the deranged teeth are awesome.)

Image
Exposed hand. (The nails make this unambiguous.) The knuckle dusters are still there because they're bolted onto the skin.

Image
Assemblage of delightfulness. Here's a bigger version of the upper-left one, to make it easier to see the exposed arm skin. (The blood is red here, for some reason. I've heard a reason posited that doesn't rely upon EoE making yet another continuity error, that it was for dramatic effect, or something like that.)

Image
And this one again, where the blood is once again indigo, and the head looks different from the previous two renditions.

Another thing would be in ep19, before the arm was regenerated, the "armor" at the base of the wound was inline with the new arm that grew such that it "tore" after the new skin "took it's place".

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but are you talking about the rubbery substance that usually covers the arms? (Production art, if it helps.)

(also as an unrelated but semi supporting note, those simulation bodies in ep13 don't have skin either (although their hands seemingly do for some reason. hm.... I see a consistency here...))

Tendons and such are visible on their hands (image). Yes, the simulation bodies do in general have a "flayed" (stripped of skin) appearance. Does this mean that being "flayed" is the Eva status quo?

Not so fast. The Eva hands we see are clearly covered by skin, for one thing. For another, most Evas aren't missing an arm, a head, legs, a core, and fingernails... unless mishaps happen in battle, at least. I wouldn't say the sim bodies are completely reliable as a reference.


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