Are we overanalyzing things?

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Are we overanalyzing things?

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Postby DatDude » Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:36 pm

I get the feeling a lot around here that people tend to look at EVA to closely. They search every fram of animation for new details and hiddin meaning. Now I understand that theirs a lot of of >I hope this is the correct word< subtext in this show, but I just can't believe that Anno made the damn show so packed with hidden meaning that you need to go to lengths like this to " get it ".

Anno was trying to say somthing with EVA and IMHO you do not ingeneral try to trasmit a message to people that you want them to understand, by filling it with so much hidding meaning that you need to be a bible scholar/anime nut/psycologist inorder to understand.

More often then not a writer writes to be understood, Anno was no diffrent with EVA. He was telling HIS story and wanted people to know the depths of his dispare, and his feelings of being unable to " connect" with people. I'm sure he didn't mean for people to look at eva under a microscope.

I think we at times stare so closly at the picture looking for meaning in every brush stroke that this picture gets lost even though its easier to see the then the strokes.

What do you people think ?
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Postby Dave » Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:18 pm

I've yet to see any serious discussion over anything that could be tossed aside as mere coincidence. As rushed and budget tight as Eva must have been, it seems Anno and co. really did find a way to cram nearly every episode with more secret tidbits than you can shake a kibble bag at.
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:06 pm

I think that people over-analyze many things, Evangelion included. My only concern is that people should acknowledge that Eva is bounded by the laws of fiction. Eva is bounded by the same imperfections of its human creators. There are errors and mistakes within it. My agravation comes when people refuse to acknowledge these errors, and instead create entire theories about these errors, detailing how these exceptions function.
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Postby Dave » Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:20 am

The Eva Monkey wrote:My agravation comes when people refuse to acknowledge these errors, and instead create entire theories about these errors, detailing how these exceptions function.


Examples?
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Postby Reichu » Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:17 am

For examples: Aaron's favorite, Dr. Nick's LCL theory.

Luckily for you, Dr. Nick seemed about ready to abandon it, last time I talked to him.
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:06 pm

Reichu wrote:For examples: Aaron's favorite, Dr. Nick's LCL theory.

Yes, the theory that LCL changes to a gaseous state. This one arose primarily from the fact that the pilots could talk in the LCL, as well as the fact that Rei was able to cry drops of tears. Its an obvious oversight, that resulted in a theory that (while interesting) isn't particularly supported. Such an interesting and important mechanic not being expressly detailed in the show is a dead give-away to it being baseless.

Another one that always annoyed me was the animation flub in episode 20. The one where Shinji's clothes were mysteriously replaced by a plug suit. This is obviously an oversight, but theory explained that they changed into a plugsuit as symbolic of Shinji's desire to pilot Eva, or something to that extent. Rather silly if you ask me. People even ignored the fact that Sadamoto corrected this flub in the manga.
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Postby Dave » Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:10 pm

So... your mad at Gainax for having the audacity to try and fix an animation mistake on their part? And please, LCL isn't a real substance. In the world Gainax created, they can give it whatever properties they want. So tell me again why it's an error that the pilots can speak in it?
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:26 pm

Dave wrote:So... your mad at Gainax for having the audacity to try and fix an animation mistake on their part? And please, LCL isn't a real substance. In the world Gainax created, they can give it whatever properties they want. So tell me again why it's an error that the pilots can speak in it?

The clothes>TO>plug suit thing arose from the line that stated that there's a "resonance" being given to his suit. Some have taken it to mean that the suit changed, and some think that Gainax created this to try and cover up the error. I think both lines of thinking are entirely false.

Case example of people over analyzing a cartoon.

Its like people over-analyzing Canti coming out of Naota's head in FLCL. Tsurumaki wanted a robot, so he thought "why not have it come out of his head?!", and thus Canti bipolar origin was concieved. It wasn't some big metaphor, it was just the work of a quirky director.

The same is true with some aspects of Eva. Where people think that everything means something, and everything is purposely the way it is. Eva is a human creation, and as such is inheirently flawed.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:39 pm

The human mind is geared up to see patterns - like spotting the leopard hiding in the bushes from just a scattering of tawny and brown patches.

This also leads us to see faces in clouds, and order in noise.

If we impose patterns on some of the noisier data in Eva, as is our inborn tendency, is that over-analysis?

Possibly - but it's still fun.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:47 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:The clothes>TO>plug suit thing arose from the line that stated that there's a "resonance" being given to his suit.


I thought it was "pseudo-substance"?

Some have taken it to mean that the suit changed, and some think that Gainax created this to try and cover up the error. I think both lines of thinking are entirely false.


So you're saying... it's not an error? They did this on purpose?
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Postby The Eva Monkey » Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:58 pm

Reichu wrote:I thought it was "pseudo-substance"?

Translations vary....

Reichu wrote:So you're saying... it's not an error? They did this on purpose?

Some people think so. I don't. I think its just a peculiar oversight, just like how Toji for no reason whatsoever wears a normal school uniform in episode 9.
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Postby AchtungAffen » Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:09 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:I think that people over-analyze many things, Evangelion included. My only concern is that people should acknowledge that Eva is bounded by the laws of fiction.


Even if it's on the "fairy tale" side of the road, it doesn't escape all laws with which we know reality. Both in the fairy tales and reality the laws of logic are the same. While 2 4-legged horses make 8 legs in total in reality, fairy land respects that. The difference comes when it's about relations between things. That's where the variation is. As in reality the apple fell on Newton's nose, in Eva it might fly off and fall on the nose of someone hated most.

Denying the possibility of finding logical relations between parts in Eva is almost denying Eva can be understood, as those logic laws are part of our understanding.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:31 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:Some people think so. I don't. I think its just a peculiar oversight, just like how Toji for no reason whatsoever wears a normal school uniform in episode 9.


I don't imagine they would introduce a gabbledygook line not present in the original script to explain Toji's sudden adherence to the dress code...
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Shwiggie » Tue Feb 15, 2005 2:50 pm

Accepting the idea that everything prior to episode 25 is a flashback (forwarded by Matt Greenfield in Platinum commentary, but my cursory experience in Eva fandom never turned up this theory from anyone else), one can retcon a whole lot of things by simply saying Shinji "misremembered" things or introduced additional information along the way. But that's a rather huge retcon which doesn't explain why he remembers so much in such technical detail....

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Postby The Eva Monkey » Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:59 pm

While I don't necessarily believe that Evangelion is simply Shinji seeing his life in retrospect, I do however conceed that we at times see things from Shinji's perspective. One example that comes to mind is episode 5 where Shinji watches Rei and Gendo talking. They each appear to be happy and enjoying their conversation, and generally appear out of character. Other converstations between the two outside of Shinji's view look nothing like this. This may be an example of how our perceptions are influenced by the perceptions of a character.

The retrospective view of the series may well be another example of over-analysis.
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Postby Reichu » Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:13 pm

The Eva Monkey wrote:The retrospective view of the series may well be another example of over-analysis.


I wouldn't say that. I'd just call it one of those theories that is blatantly wrong. It's not overanalysis to wonder why the only tracks we see Shinji listening to on his SDAT are 25 and 26 -- is it? Little details like this tend to be there for a reason. Either that, or the director is intentionally taunting us.

A similar sort of detail would be Miki's stopwatch, in "Utena". I remember this driving my Utena-fangirl sister crazy to no end. "Why do they show him doing that?!?"
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Postby AchtungAffen » Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:28 pm

Yeah, why?
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Postby Shwiggie » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:12 pm

One example that comes to mind is episode 5 where Shinji watches Rei and Gendo talking.

Of course, this example flows right in line with how later episodes harp on the whole "a version of you exists in the minds of others and are not the same as your own view of yourself" concept. Shinji "saw" what very well could have been an imagined affinity or happiness between them because he figured his father projected parental pride onto someone, and Rei was the only possible recipient of such feelings, and would likely return it. Of course, he didn't know much of Rei or his father at that juncture, so I see that as a valid application of the later-introduced perceived reality idea.

Then again, this in itself may be overanalyzing a bit. But it's entertaining to hunt for foreshadowing, even if there is none to find. Like the bit with the ghostly vision of Rei in episode one immediately after Shinji is introduced seems to tie in to End of Evangelion...I believe it to be wholly unrelated, but again, it's fun to jump into such matters. No harm in that, right?

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Postby DatDude » Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:39 pm

The main point im talking about are theorys like say " eva is an inditement agains a given religon or the ever popular eva is based on the barons of hell.

The truth is that even if eva got some of its inspration from religon or preexsisting fiction its not about these things. Its about people and thier strugles to ( for lack of a better term) live and connect with others. You can understand these core themes just fine.

I get tired of people goiong on at length about " how you don't know eva until you understand X" when people and their innerdemons are the real story.
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Postby Mr. Tines » Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:33 pm

AchtungAffen wrote:Yeah, why?


Taking the minutes, probably.
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