Depth of Shinji and Rei's relationship

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Postby NemZ » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:34 pm

Eric Blair wrote:Back on topic, I have to agree with what has been said, while Shinji might have felt something towards Rei, it's never a sexual attraction, maybe something comparable to filial love, maybe some sort of deep rooted resonance/ memory response towards Rei seeing as how she is somewhat identical to Yui.


I don't buy the genetic memory theories. Shinji has no bloody clue who she is a clone of and any similarities in Rei's behavior to Yui are mere happenstance.

1. Shinji and Asuka cannot be rooming together because that is where most of the sexual attraction between them both stems from, and


Easy enough. Misato decides that Rei is indeed a better match for Shinji in the dance training bit and arranges for the two of them to room together.

2. Rei 2 cannot die, because as Sadamoto realized, you get stuck with Rei 3 and the next step for Rei 3 is Third Impact, which will eventually lead to Shinji and Asuka alone on the beach and Kimigabuchi doing Retake.


If they hook up before 23 all bets are off. In such a case her dying and coming back as a more emotional, whole-souled person might even make things better between them. You could also have Rei 2 die earlier, allowing Shinji time to adjust to the situation.
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Postby Eric Blair » Fri Aug 29, 2008 5:46 pm

NemZ wrote:I don't buy the genetic memory theories. Shinji has no bloody clue who she is a clone of and any similarities in Rei's behavior to Yui are mere happenstance.

Red Cross Books say otherwise, especially the "Rei wrenching her wash rag while cleaning at school" and Shinji's reaction.

Easy enough. Misato decides that Rei is indeed a better match for Shinji in the dance training bit and arranges for the two of them to room together.

Not as easy. What about Gendo? how can Misato make the commander accept that? He is after all Rei's legal guardian/tutor/controller. The only reason Misato was able to room Shinji and Asuka together was precisely because Gendo couldn't be bothered, and Asuka was for "tactical" reasons, though it can be debated if it wasn't sentimental as well.

If they hook up before 23 all bets are off. In such a case her dying and coming back as a more emotional, whole-souled person might even make things better between them.

She was already emotional and whole souled and came back as beginning of Eva, so that is not possible unless you REALLY fanwank something.

You could also have Rei 2 die earlier, allowing Shinji time to adjust to the situation.

Again, impractical because Rei's realization of her (ambiguous) "feelings" for Shinji happen later as a sort of cathartic epiphany; killing her earlier would again need for huge amounts of fanwank to explain how she kept her memories, especially considering how when Rei 3 is activated she says "I don't remember, I might be the third."
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Postby Formless One » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:04 pm

Eric Blair wrote:
NemZ wrote:I don't buy the genetic memory theories. Shinji has no bloody clue who she is a clone of and any similarities in Rei's behavior to Yui are mere happenstance.


Red Cross Books say otherwise, especially the "Rei wrenching her wash rag while cleaning at school" and Shinji's reaction.

Look, genetic memory theories are bunk for a reason that you even bring up: memories in Eva are contained in the soul. We know that for a fact because of Rei I and the memories that she had that Rei II didn't, not to mention the way everyone remembers things just fine during Instrumentality. No body = no DNA =/= no memories = memories have nothing to do with genetics.

Rei III may be a bizzare exception to the established pattern, but how do we know that she wasn't in fact trying to blow Shinji off when she wanted some alone time? Dying must be quite a shock, and I would not be surprised if she in fact had memory problems from trying to repress memories of burning alive. I don't think I would want to remember that, would you?

Point is, this is a case of the supplemental material being superseded by the show. Not the first time its happened, won't be the last time.
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Postby NemZ » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:07 pm

Eric Blair wrote:Red Cross Books say otherwise, especially the "Rei wrenching her wash rag while cleaning at school" and Shinji's reaction.


I'm not seeing the section you're referring to. Could you be more specific?

Not as easy. What about Gendo?


Why assume he would even care? He certainly hasn't taken an interest in her living arrangements before now. We honestly don't have the first damn clue why she lives on her own.

She was already emotional and whole souled and came back as beginning of Eva, so that is not possible unless you REALLY fanwank something.


I understand these words individually, but as currently arranged I have no idea what point (if any) you're trying to get across with them.

Again, impractical because Rei's realization of her (ambiguous) "feelings" for Shinji happen later as a sort of cathartic epiphany


Who mentioned her emotional epiphany? I'm just saying let her die and come back earlier so Shinji can get past the whole clone issue before he gets hit with everything else the series has in store as it spirals down.

killing her earlier would again need for huge amounts of fanwank to explain how she kept her memories, especially considering how when Rei 3 is activated she says "I don't remember, I might be the third."


We don't know for sure how permanent or widespread the memory loss was. Perhaps she just lost everything that happened since her last upload session? Perhaps she will eventually remember everything once the sol transfer process settles? Completely unknown. She certainly has -some- memories though, as she is able to reason out that she is the third and she obviously still knows Shinji, still remembers the context of acquiring Gendo's old glasses.
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Postby Eric Blair » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:14 pm

Formless One wrote:the supplemental material being superseded by the show. Not the first time its happened, won't be the last time.


The supplemental material was added AFTER the show for that specific reason of shedding light in confusing parts (ironically, I think it makes it more ambiguous) So I feel confident hat if you say Rei might be a special case, it applies to all the Rei's; maybe Rei 2 didn;t quote Rei 1 because she never saw the connection between the old hag and Akagi, but from a behavioral POV, Rei 1=Rei 2=Rei 3.

However, we are focusing on Shinji and how he reacts, not Rei. The crux is NOT Rei's memories, but rather Shinji's reaction to Rei and how to circumvent those reactions to make a feasible R/S without having to use the tried old crutch of "Asuka is an evil bitch who abuses him and Rei is the angel that will deliver us from evil"

NemZ wrote:Why assume he would even care? He certainly hasn't taken an interest in her living arrangements before now. We honestly don't have the first damn clue why she lives on her own.

Because Rei is instrumental to his plans.

NemZ wrote:I understand these words individually, but as currently arranged I have no idea what point (if any) you're trying to get across with them.

Again, here I will address the rest of your post... All the posturing about not knowing and thus having a gray area (specifically linked to the last part of your posting) can be considered fanwank; just because it's not alluded, does not mean it can be assumed for something to happen, a counter point would be Shinji, upon discovering that Rei Is a clone of Yui would feel more connected to her on a filial level (because we know he would then transfer all of his feelings of not belonging to his "long lost relative") and as far as memories go, perhaps Rei's life and times are stored in a cd up to say the moment where Rei delivers her poem? (I always imagined hat part acted as a sort o backup memory dump for Rei)
Last edited by Eric Blair on Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Formless One » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:23 pm

However, we are focusing on Shinji and how he reacts, not Rei. The crux is NOT Rei's memories, but rather Shinji's reaction to Rei and how to circumvent those reactions to make a feasible R/S without having to use the tried old crutch of "Asuka is an evil bitch who abuses him and Rei is the angel that will deliver us from evil"

This is not obvious. But when I see something that I think I can correct, I do so. Sometimes the things I correct is slightly off topic, but that's how it goes.

The supplemental material was added AFTER the show for that specific reason of shedding light in confusing parts (ironically, I think it makes it more ambiguous) So I feel confident hat if you say Rei might be a special case, it applies to all the Rei's; maybe Rei 2 didn;t quote Rei 1 because she never saw the connection between the old hag and Akagi, but from a behavioral POV, Rei 1=Rei 2=Rei 3.

Why do you think its secondary canon? They didn't try very hard to make it consistent with the show, so in cases where it is not consistent with the show... guess what source we must turn to? ;) That they tried to explain inconsistencies with the show is great, but when they create new inconsistencies in the process, the show is the better source.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:33 pm

Why has this thread turned into a R/S fanwanking session? This forum isn't meant for fanfics people, take it to the fandom area.
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Postby Gamer_2k4 » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:16 pm

Eric Blair wrote:
Gamer_2k4 wrote:Sexual attraction?

Sexual attraction is the very basis of any relationship; Humans seek an acceptable mate to reproduce, thus their driving factor is sexual attraction. Don't believe me? you are the living proof of it; if your pops didn't like your mom that way, you wouldn't be here.

Basis nothing. If that was true, then we'd be doing pairings based on who looks the best. If that was true, ugly people would be screwed (or wouldn't, depending on how you interpret that). But you know what? That's NOT how it is. Remember the quote I started this topic off with? It wasn't "Anyone who believes R/S usually doesn't have a grasp of how the characters look." Nope, it referred to the CHARACTERS. As in, who they are, not how they look. And that's how it is in the real world, too. Sure, superficial relationships may start merely because each person likes how the other looks, but real relationships happen because of who the people are, because they're compatible with each other.

Eric Blair wrote:
Gamer_2k4 wrote:any interaction between Shinji and Asuka

I thought this as supposed to be for a R/S POV, but I'll pick up for the sake of this... how about Shinji running after Asuka or the almost kiss initiated by Shinji on ep 10? or the whole Onsen thing? how about the kiss in 15? how about Shinji masturbating over Asuka's comatose body?

Didn't I address half of those in my post? I don't know what running you're referring to, or what an "Onsen" is, but I'll mention the other three again. The almost kiss wasn't because Shinji was trying to improve his relationship with Asuka; it was because a hot girl flopped down on his bed half an inch from him. The kiss in 15 had nothing to do with a relationship in any way; Shinji did it because Asuka coerced him (note that Asuka clearly felt afterwards that he hadn't gotten into it enough), and Asuka did it because she wanted the emotional closeness. Do you honestly think Asuka's thoughts were "Check out this hot stud; I'm going to go kiss him and it's going to be awesome!" There was no physical attraction from either end, IMO. And do you remember what Shinji said after the hospital scene? "I'm the lowest." In other words, "I suck hardcore for treating Asuka as nothing more than an object to gratify my sexual desires."

Eric Blair wrote:
Gamer_2k4 wrote:In fact, I can't think of a single instance where Shinji or Asuka indicate that they have a sexual attraction for the other (the beginning of EoE doesn't count)

Why not?

Bad memory?


Anyway...to take that little tangent and bring it around to the topic, this discussion is about whether Shinji and Rei are compatible as people, not whether they're sexually attracted to each other.
Last edited by Gamer_2k4 on Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:20 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Iron Rooster » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:17 pm

Wow, this thread is not talking about R/S anymore.

By the way, Formless One, I think you've probably pissed off a good number of people with your backseat moderating if you haven't noticed by now. If someone posts something that doesn't really do anything, don't point it out to everyone. Let the mods deal with it themselves. If they needed/wanted more mods, they'd ask for one.

And add something to the actual subject of discussion (so this isn't entirely spam) some random thoughts of mine. Here goes . . .


I don't really think much can be said about Shinji's relationship with Rei. She's physically near him because of his work, but she's also far away since he hardly actually talks with her (not counting 3I). For the first half of the series, she was a subject of Shinji's curiosity. I mean, I don't blame him, she's a girl that his dad gives more attention to than he ever gave Shinji in his whole life. Then Shinji learns about the Rei clones and any relationship he had with her flies out the window until 3I.
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Postby Gamer_2k4 » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:43 pm

Guys? Chill pl0x?

Unless...you're roleplaying Asuka when she hears about Rei x Shinji, the most discussable (wow, apparently that's a word) pairing in the last day! Yeah, we'll go with that.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:48 pm

Iron Rooster wrote:Then Shinji learns about the Rei clones and any relationship he had with her flies out the window until 3I.

You mean until she realizes she is really a 50 foot tall 4 billion year old progenitor entity? The relationship was made to die exactly the way it did. Nothing will change that.

BTW, I was the one back seat modding TYVM. Also:
Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Why has this thread turned into a R/S fanwanking session? This forum isn't meant for fanfics people, take it to the fandom area.
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Postby Zuggy » Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:19 pm

If Shinji and Rei got together Shinji would be Rei's bitch. Rei can't be bothered to tidy up or fold her clothes, two things which Shinji seems anal about - if those cans in her flat are cans of food it means Rei can't be bothered to prepare decent food either - and in the manga she doesn't know how to make a nice cuppa - so Shinji would have to do the dinner and the tea as well.

Image

Shinji would be rushing around to do all this while Rei just sits reading, probably thinking 'hey, this is alright, this boy does everything for me!'

I think he's better off just staying with Misato.

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Postby NAveryW » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:02 pm

Gamer_2k4 wrote:I can't think of a single instance where Shinji or Asuka indicate that they have a sexual attraction for the other (the beginning of EoE doesn't count), or at least, a situation that was aided by their living together (if Rei had dropped down next to Shinji that night, he would have gone bug-eyed with her, too).

Gamer_2k4 wrote:Didn't I address half of those in my post? I don't know what running you're referring to, or what an "Onsen" is, but I'll mention the other three again.
You realize how easy it is to look up the definition of a word when you're on the internet, right? Not doing so, especially when you're debating something, makes you out to seem rather foolish.
Gamer_2k4 wrote:The almost kiss wasn't because Shinji was trying to improve his relationship with Asuka; it was because a hot girl flopped down on his bed half an inch from him.
You just contradicted yourself with the phrase "hot girl". If Shinji had no sexual attraction to her, he wouldn't consider her "hot", would he?

Gamer_2k4 wrote:The kiss in 15 had nothing to do with a relationship in any way; Shinji did it because Asuka coerced him (note that Asuka clearly felt afterwards that he hadn't gotten into it enough), and Asuka did it because she wanted the emotional closeness. Do you honestly think Asuka's thoughts were "Check out this hot stud; I'm going to go kiss him and it's going to be awesome!" There was no physical attraction from either end, IMO.
There is indeed no hard evidence in that particular scene that Shinji was attracted to Asuka (minus the fact that he kissed her). However, Asuka's revulsion that Shinji didn't make any sort of advance ("You won't even hold me!") is quite telling from her end.

Gamer_2k4 wrote:And do you remember what Shinji said after the hospital scene? "I'm the lowest." In other words, "I suck hardcore for treating Asuka as nothing more than an object to gratify my sexual desires."
You contradicted yourself again with the phrase "sexual desires". The fact is, if Shinji used her as a side-dish, he must have found her physically attractive. If she caused no sense of arousal within him, he wouldn't have orgasmed in twenty seconds.

Even if you don't consider the scene to be in real time, the point still stands. You simultaneously say that they're attracted to each other and that they're not.

Regardless of whether either of them feels any sense of limerence, there is sexual attraction/tension between them.
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Postby Ornette » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:13 pm

last chance to keep this thread on topic or it gets locked.

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Postby NemZ » Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:46 pm

Zuggy wrote:I think he's better off just staying with Misato.


...where he does essentially the same thing for two people who are even less able to offer sincere thanks and appreciation for such work than Rei is? No, moving in with her would probably (after a week or so of intense work putting the place in order) end up with him having more free time.
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Postby Rhyno » Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:12 am

This one is simple for me. Rei and Shinji have a very deep relationship (even though I don't believe it is sexual). I really think Shinji sees Rei as a mother. Besides him flat out saying so, I have other reasons for believing this. She is a clone of his mother. Although Shinji might not know this, I think this is part of the reason Shinji describes feeling comfortable with her. It's like a subconscious suggestion he can't place his finger on. Rei is the mother of humanity. I think, instinctively, Rei has compassion for people. It is most obvious with Gendo initially. As the relationship between Shinji and Rei progresses, I think a lot of that compassion starts to get directed towards Shinji. I think this also explains Rei not having sexual urges for... well, anyone. I think, again motivated subconsciously, she has motherly instincts towards others.

I disagree with those who think that Shinji and Rei could have a romantic relationship. I do, however, concede that such a relationship could be a possibility... I suppose. To me, it's just a perversion of a perfectly deep relationship that already exists... from my point of view, of course.

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Postby p06 » Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:28 am

Eric Blair wrote:For a Rei/Shinji relationship to prosper, you have to circumvent 2 very pivotal things in the story flow, however...

1. Shinji and Asuka cannot be rooming together because that is where most of the sexual attraction between them both stems from, and

2. Rei 2 cannot die, because as Sadamoto realized, you get stuck with Rei 3 and the next step for Rei 3 is Third Impact, which will eventually lead to Shinji and Asuka alone on the beach and Kimigabuchi doing Retake.


IMO, right to the part in EoE where Shinji said "screw instrumentality", R/S was still possible. Shinji staying as orange juice would probably be the fairy tale ending for an R/S relationship.

The first few episodes before Asuka popped up looked to me just like any other slice of life anime with Rei and Shinji as the main characters...
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:52 pm

...where he does essentially the same thing for two people who are even less able to offer sincere thanks and appreciation for such work than Rei is? No, moving in with her would probably (after a week or so of intense work putting the place in order) end up with him having more free time.


Agreed. Rei DOES have a work ethic, but she doesn't apply it to her home life because she doesn't really care about her own existence. With Shinji caring for her sincerely, she'd probably gain some self-appreciation, then start to feel like a freeloader and pull her own weight around the place. Aside from Rei being the Mother of all Mankind, the two of them are pretty perfect for each other.

This one is simple for me. Rei and Shinji have a very deep relationship (even though I don't believe it is sexual). I really think Shinji sees Rei as a mother. Besides him flat out saying so, I have other reasons for believing this. She is a clone of his mother. Although Shinji might not know this, I think this is part of the reason Shinji describes feeling comfortable with her. It's like a subconscious suggestion he can't place his finger on. Rei is the mother of humanity. I think, instinctively, Rei has compassion for people. It is most obvious with Gendo initially. As the relationship between Shinji and Rei progresses, I think a lot of that compassion starts to get directed towards Shinji. I think this also explains Rei not having sexual urges for... well, anyone. I think, again motivated subconsciously, she has motherly instincts towards others.


THAT, and because Shinji's the only person who's treated her better than the shit she throws on her floor.

I disagree with those who think that Shinji and Rei could have a romantic relationship. I do, however, concede that such a relationship could be a possibility... I suppose. To me, it's just a perversion of a perfectly deep relationship that already exists... from my point of view, of course.


I can see them having a sort of platonic romance. A sort of soulmate bond that they could just translate into "romance" for simplicity sake, but there wouldn't be a sexual element. I have a similar bond with my boyfriend, and we're almost exactly like Shinji and Rei.

For the record, I'm probably the one who'll turn out to be an alien clone monster.

IMO, right to the part in EoE where Shinji said "screw instrumentality", R/S was still possible. Shinji staying as orange juice would probably be the fairy tale ending for an R/S relationship.


I disagree. Furthermore, if Shinji didn't screw Instrumentality, there would be no Rei or Shinji to stay together. They'd just be one big ass soul that you can't even call really conscious. Atleast this way, Rei can watch over Shinji from her ascended state, always watching over him, perhaps visiting him in dreams. We know she can.

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Postby Zuggy » Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:30 pm

NemZ wrote:...where he does essentially the same thing for two people who are even less able to offer sincere thanks and appreciation for such work than Rei is? No, moving in with her would probably (after a week or so of intense work putting the place in order) end up with him having more free time.

See what you're saying, Rei would be all...

A... ariga... to. :rei_blush:

Thing is, no matter how much work someone put's into Rei's flat it's still going to be an uncomfortable place to live.

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:44 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:I can see them having a sort of platonic romance. A sort of soulmate bond that they could just translate into "romance" for simplicity sake, but there wouldn't be a sexual element.

O'rly? That would require them to ignore everything they learned at the end of the series. Rei realized who she really was and was at peace with it. If anything is telling it's that when Shinji said I want to see them again it was Asuka standing next to him in the picture with Rei fading into the background. You don't even see her face. It was set up to die, plain and simple.
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