Depth of Shinji and Rei's relationship

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Postby NemZ » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:14 am

Rhyno wrote: She doesn't know who she is since her soul is not complete, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have subconscious instincts of her true self.


sure, except she isn't acting in accordance with what those instrincts of her true self clearly should be if she wants to go ahead with 3I.

I tend to subscribe to this interpretation as well. She is ultimately trying to help humanity by ridding their hearts of loneliness.


it still isn't something she would have an instictual drive to do though, nor is it something she could even begin to contemplate given her lack of self-knowledge at that point. It isn't about ATFs, therefore she must mean she wants to be one with him in some other way.
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Postby Rhyno » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:26 am

NemZ wrote:it still isn't something she would have an instictual drive to do though, nor is it something she could even begin to contemplate given her lack of self-knowledge at that point. It isn't about ATFs, therefore she must mean she wants to be one with him in some other way.
You are coming to differing conclusions than I am which explains your point of view. Although she does have a lack of self-knowledge, I believe that she still has the instincts of the whole soul that she is missing. For me, this explains the motherly instincts and desire to "become one" with the person she cares very deeply for. If you have a different interpretation of Rei, this explains your different interpretation of the Rei/Shinji relationship.

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Postby Lucretius » Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:37 am

Well, Rei I at least appears to have been fully aware of her origins and purpose, judging from her conversation with herself in episode 25. It's difficult to to say what the other two avatars knew, though. Also, bear in mind that in the DC version of 23, both Armisael and Unit 00 take on a shape very similar to Rei-Lilith in 26'. Rei said "no" after she realized she wanted to become one with Shinji, which I take to mean that she wanted Shinji to remain a seperate individual, at least for the time being. That's why we don't get a full-scale Third Impact.

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:00 am

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Because those tend to have actual bearing on the plot.


So does character introspection, since Evangelion is first and foremost a character-driven story.

Oh oh, lets ignore huge parts of a character because it makes something we like immoral.


Immoral? What?

ATF's and destrudo actually did something in the show. Did how can we get Rei and Shinji together? Can you seriously tell me you don't see the difference? I want to understand what happened in the show, not what it would take to pair random people up. This thread has taken a turn for the possitive in this reguard so by all means carry on.


There's not really a difference once you start digging into shit like "What happens to the soul after the corpse disintegrates after hundreds of years?"

Luceretius wrote:Then why do the Evas, which are all clones of Adam, and, in the case of Unit 01, Lilith, all seem to have a desire to "become one" with their pilots? Asuka's mother inside Unit 02 wants Asuka to die with her, Unit )1 absorbs Shinji for a month, and when Unit 00 goes beserk, Ritsuko thinks it wants to merge with Shinji. Perhaps Rei wants to become one with Shinji for the same reasons that Armisael wants to become one with her?


The Evangelions don't have the instincts of any SOLs, since their souls are of Lilim, nor do any express an interest in being one with the pilots, really. I personally believe Kyoko's "Die with me" was a hallucination (and even if it was, it's a suicide pact, not a merger), and Unit 01 didn't willingly absorb Shinji, it was incidental due to the 400% Sync Ratio, and during which, Yui was trying to convince Shinji to live. Unit 00, AKA Rei 1, is possibly the only case where the resident soul of an Evangelion wants to merge with whoever is piloting it, because Rei 1 probably thought Shinji was Gendo.

Rhyno wrote:You are coming to differing conclusions than I am which explains your point of view. Although she does have a lack of self-knowledge, I believe that she still has the instincts of the whole soul that she is missing. For me, this explains the motherly instincts and desire to "become one" with the person she cares very deeply for. If you have a different interpretation of Rei, this explains your different interpretation of the Rei/Shinji relationship.


Either way you cut it, "becoming one" with anyone or anything isn't part of Lilith's instincts, it's directly against her nature. It's like giving fish an instinctive need to fly.

Lucretius wrote:That's why we don't get a full-scale Third Impact.


Uh...yes we do.

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Postby Rhyno » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:16 am

AuraTwilight wrote:Either way you cut it, "becoming one" with anyone or anything isn't part of Lilith's instincts, it's directly against her nature. It's like giving fish an instinctive need to fly.
Although that is certainly one way to look at it, I tend to disagree.
Rhyno wrote:Although she does have a lack of self-knowledge, I believe that she still has the instincts of the whole soul that she is missing. For me, this explains the motherly instincts and desire to "become one" with the person she cares very deeply for.
Emphasis added. She is the mother of humanity.
Lucretius wrote:Rei/Lilith feels sorry for her wayward offspring, so she wants to return them all to her womb. ("The world is overflowing with sadness. People are surrounded by emptiness... And loneliness has filled their hearts.")
You might not agree, but these feelings are factored in when I consider her instincts.

Putting all these things together for the events in episode 23, my view is that instinctively, Rei wanted to become one with Shinji since she had great affection for him and, on a subconscious level, had a desire to join with him and rid themselves of the "barriers" that could only be there to hurt one another (as expressed in the quotes provided by Lucretius). She also consciously realized that this "oneness" was being brought about by an angel... an "enemy" she has been trained to defend humanity against. She made the conscious decision to sacrifice herself and destroy the angel as opposed to give into her subconscious desires to become one with Shinji. Again, I do not see this becoming one as a sexual urge but an act of compassion healing the loneliness of humanity (in episode 23's case, the loneliness and isolation of herself and Shinji).

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Postby NemZ » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:19 am

Rhyno wrote:She is the mother of humanity.


You might not agree, but these feelings are factored in when I consider her instincts.


But a mother does not wish to become one with her children. Rather she wishes for her children to disengage from her and become whole beings apart from herself. What you suggest as Rei/Lilith's 'motherly instincts' runs directly in opposition to what those instincts should be, and into the realm of highly dysfunctional vicarious relationships if not outright abuse.

This is a vision of twisted motherhood right alongside that presented in "Mother" on Pink Floyd's The Wall.

Putting all these things together for the events in episode 23, my view is that instinctively, Rei wanted to become one with Shinji since she had great affection for him and, on a subconscious level, had a desire to join with him and rid themselves of the "barriers" that could only be there to hurt one another (as expressed in the quotes provided by Lucretius).


I don't think she thought of the barriers as ATFs, but otherwise I agree. what I don't agree with is the notion that this is at all a motherly desire rather than a sexual one, even if undeveloped or subconscious.

She also consciously realized that this "oneness" was being brought about by an angel... an "enemy" she has been trained to defend humanity against. She made the conscious decision to sacrifice herself and destroy the angel as opposed to give into her subconscious desires to become one with Shinji.


...because it would mean both their deaths at the hand of the angel, as well as the end of humanity in general. She wasn't about to let Shinji die like that if she could help it, even if it might have accomplished something she truely wanted in a roundabout way. Instead she gambled that Gendo would not let her die yet, giving her another chance at happiness with Shinji... but she didn't count on Ritsuko's interference or her own memory issues after soul transference making that plan untenable.

Again, I do not see this becoming one as a sexual urge but an act of compassion healing the loneliness of humanity (in episode 23's case, the loneliness and isolation of herself and Shinji).


In 23 it is an act of compassion, but it is to spare Shinji's life not to heal that loneliness. If her goal was to heal his loneliness then she could not possibly have fucked up more.
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Postby Lucretius » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:15 am

NemZ wrote:But a mother does not wish to become one with her children. Rather she wishes for her children to disengage from her and become whole beings apart from herself. What you suggest as Rei/Lilith's 'motherly instincts' runs directly in opposition to what those instincts should be, and into the realm of highly dysfunctional vicarious relationships if not outright abuse.

This is a vision of twisted motherhood right alongside that presented in "Mother" on Pink Floyd's The Wall.



And who's to say that NGE doesn't present a rather dim view of motherhood, as represented by Rei/Lilith? In EoE, Rei's motherhood is clearly something Shinji has to escape from-by tearing her to bloody chunks. Nothing healthy about that.

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

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Postby Chrad » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:29 am

I agree. To semi-repeat what I said in the S/A thread: the mother (and all of the infinite love and acceptance she can give Shinji) is preparation for the harshness of life. It cannot be used as a substitute for it, which is why Shinji must reject it. The Freudian Oedipus Complex idea is obviously very important to the show (it's even directly brought up) and if we follow that line of thinking it makes sense that the mother figure is something Shinji must move away from, even violently.

That said, in the end I did feel that Rei and Yui were happy to see Shinji make the choice for himself to leave them behind and return to the world.

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Postby Rhyno » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:33 am

NemZ wrote:But a mother does not wish to become one with her children.
Lucretius wrote:Rei/Lilith feels sorry for her wayward offspring, so she wants to return them all to her womb. ("The world is overflowing with sadness. People are surrounded by emptiness... And loneliness has filled their hearts.")
I can see why you have a different viewpoint. This mother has an ability to help all her children by removing the very thing that is causing them the loneliness they are experiencing.

Edit:
That said, in the end I did feel that Rei and Yui were happy to see Shinji make the choice for himself to leave them behind and return to the world.
Agreed.

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Postby p06 » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:01 am

AuraTwilight wrote:Either way you cut it, "becoming one" with anyone or anything isn't part of Lilith's instincts, it's directly against her nature. It's like giving fish an instinctive need to fly.


NGE is a critical examination of interpersonal relations on all levels, be it casual acquaintances or something closer such as that between 2 lovers. As such, i believe that ATFs and the desire of Lilim to become one represent the 2 tendencies: to stay distant; and to reduce interpersonal distance. In other words, in the anime these are the two underlying forces which represents what determines the behavior of people in their interpersonal interactions.

Furthermore, all humans are descendants of lilith, this makes it possible, understandable and highly likely that their tendencies and specific behaviors in relationships are inherited from lilith.

Working from these assumptions, there shouldn't be a need to separate between "lilith's instincts" and the instincts of humans to love, be closer, keep distance etc. because they are actually one and the same. There's nothing alien about lilith wanting to become one; it is a desire shared by all lilim when they are in close relationships, to reduce friction due to individuality.

The second conclusion would be that these two conflicting desires to stay apart or become one is generic to all human interactions, and not specific to a certain type of human relationship.It is an instinctive attempt to resolve the hedgehog's dilemma, which can result from different kinds of relationships. In any case i do not identify it as something maternal.

Again, I do not see this becoming one as a sexual urge but an act of compassion healing the loneliness of humanity


I see it as an instinctive reaction brought about by a close relationship (and a desire to be even closer).
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Postby Lucretius » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:07 am

I agree. NGE is really a narrative about the conflict between the desire for human interaction, and the fear of being hurt by others, i.e., the Hedgehog's Dilemma, as described by Schopenhauer. Overly pedantic analysis of Angelic psychology doesn't really make any sense, and I shouldn't even have tried. As Misato herself says, Angels are just humans who have chosen solitude. In any case, Rei's dialogue with Armisael clearly shows why Angels (and humans!) want to become one:


Rei VOICE:
I see, but it's no use. It's too late now.
I'll share what's in my heart with you.
I'll share this feeling with you.
Doesn't it hurt? See?
Doesn't your heart ache?

Rei:
Hurt? No, you're wrong. It's...
...loneliness?
Yes, it's loneliness, isn't it?

Rei VOICE:
Loneliness? I don't understand.

Rei:
You hate being alone, don't you?
There are so many of us, and yet, you hate being alone.
That is what loneliness is.

Rei VOICE:
That is what is inside your heart.
That is your own heart, overflowing with sorrow.

He shuddered a bit, remembering the somewhat creepy level of detail Kaji had gone into, while rubbing a watermelon in a disturbingly sexual way.

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Postby Chrad » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:27 am

That's about it, really.

I think Rei wanted to become one with Shinji for the same reason anyone would consider the experience of instrumentality a blessing; to cure a world 'overflowing with sorrow'.

To echo what others have said, Shinji and Rei do have a very deep emotional bond, and Rei does possess a desire to become one with Shinji linked to her purpose and Angelic origin, as well as to the desire that all humans (Lillim) share to end all pain.

To think that Rei and Shinji were meant to be together in a romantic/sexual sense seems to me illogical given the direction that the story and Rei's character take.

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Postby p06 » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:58 am

Chrad wrote:To think that Rei and Shinji were meant to be together in a romantic/sexual sense seems to me illogical given the direction that the story and Rei's character take.


Probably not sexual, but i see the line between a romantic relation and one that's not romantic really blurred here.
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Postby Zuggy » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:15 am

Reichu wrote:This "vision" of Gendo is a memory of Gendo smiling at her after the Eva-00 incident, an event that is heavily associated with Rei's loyalties to him.

Think Rei is guilty of romanticising that moment, in #5 there are a couple of scenes:

In reality wrote:IKARI (CONCERNED):
Rei, are you all right?! Rei!
... I see. :gendo:

... but then later in that episode Rei is smiling to herself as she reminisces and we hear Gendo saying the same lines again, only differently:

In Rei's head wrote:IKARI (IN SOFT VOICE):
Rei, are you all right? Rei... :heart:

... and smiling-Gendo seems to be another invention of Rei's (not to say Gendo doesn't smile at Rei at other times, just not when he opened the hatch).

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:55 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:So does character introspection, since Evangelion is first and foremost a character-driven story.

Not when you ignore key parts of their character. You're not analysing them at that point, you're butchering them. Congradulations! You pulled a Sadamoto! I actually like this last page, do you see the difference?

Immoral? What?

Incest, alien soul, etc.

There's not really a difference once you start digging into shit like "What happens to the soul after the corpse disintegrates after hundreds of years?"

Did I get involved in that question? It's not important to the plot so I don't give a damn about it. Since it's not actually butchering a character in the process I let it go. If it ever pops up again you can quote me as saying it's pointless if you'd like.
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Postby Formless One » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:04 pm

alien soul,

Nitpick ahead: all the angels souls are considered equivalent to human ones. Including Rei's and Kowarou's. So says Misato in EoE. There is no reason to throw that datum out, BTW.
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Postby NemZ » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:25 pm

I think quite a few people are looking at Rei as a whole rather than just Rei 2's experience here, and that is what is causing all the confusion. Rei 2 is not Lilith, even if she has most of her soul... she is her own person, with needs and wants that she may not fully understand but still possess, and a personality defined by her experiences as a human living among other humans.

When Shinji is threatened with assimilation she realizes the depth of what Toji already informed her of; her desire for him. It might not be a mature, fully sexualized attraction, but it is definately a personal one rather than some universal trait. She wants to get closer to him emotionally and perhaps physically, but in the traditional human fashion.
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Postby Ornette » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:44 pm

Formless One wrote:Nitpick ahead: all the angels souls are considered equivalent to human ones. Including Rei's and Kowarou's. So says Misato in EoE. There is no reason to throw that datum out, BTW.

EoE wrote:Shinji, we humans were born from a being called Lilith, who is a source
of life just like Adam. We are the 18th Angel. (flashed image: DNA) The
other Angels are possibilities of what we might have become - humans
that gave up human form. (flashed image: Kaworu - Rei)
Sadly, we had to reject each other - even though we're all human...

I don't think that necessarily means souls from Adam's Guf are the same as souls from Lilith's. However, the real nitpick would be that even if they are different, they shouldn't really be called aliens (in the extraterrestrial sense), since they were born on Earth just like Lilith's progeny were.

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Postby SeanTucker » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:38 pm

All I'll say is, S/R makes for good pr0nz and good comedy, sometimes at the same time; the latter moreso if they're kept in character.
Timstuff wrote:If you live in a Gainax production and are allergic to melons, I imagine you'd be sneezing a lot...

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:42 pm

NemZ wrote:Rei 2 is not Lilith, even if she has most of her soul... she is her own person, with needs and wants that she may not fully understand but still possess, and a personality defined by her experiences as a human living among other humans.

She is a person that was artificially created to hijack Lilith's powers. While she does have a seperate personality Lilith is her true self. Rei III conceeds this.

@Formless One, Lilith is still a 4 billion+ year old alien.
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