Depth of Shinji and Asuka's relationship

[Lucretius]

I think it's safe to say that Shinji changed for the better over the course of the film, especially if you regard the two endings as concurrent. He goes from "Everybody just die" to "I want to see them all again." Granted, he has a temporary relapse in the final scene, but if you regard Shinji's future as being one of only gloom and doom, you rather invalidate the message of the series. Since NGE is essentially a bildungsroman centered around Shinji, Mr. Tines' ending scenario would make the whole narrative pretty pointless. That's why Last B never made it to the big screen. I think the following exchange from an earlier draft of the script sheds some light on how the final scene is to be interpreted:

Rei: "Only Angels can break the walls of an Angel heart."
Kaoru" And only humans can break the walls of a human heart."
Rei: "This is a possibility."
Kaoru: "The possibility that people can understand each other, sometimes."
Rei: "That they can understand each other without relying on words."
Shinji: "But that's just a make-believe."
Shinji: "Just a wish."
Shinji: "Just a prayer."
Rei: "But that instant is sincere."

[Sailor Star Dust]

Lucretius: I agree with everything you said. Nice. ;) The only problem I have with the latter bit of EoE's alternate ending (a few lines after what you posted) is Shinji saying how he's "different from the others" makes it seem like he hasn't learned anything that way. I'm glad that EoE ended up the way it did all around, and yes Last B would have been missing the point.

Yojimbo: Agreed.

[Mr. Tines]

It's just two depressed teenagers licking each other's "wounds".

Well, that's one way of describing what they get up to ;)

[NemZ]

Since NGE is essentially a bildungsroman centered around Shinji, Mr. Tines' ending scenario would make the whole narrative pretty pointless.

On the contrary, I think ending it as a tragedy makes it all the more poignant and drives how the message that while it's never too late to try, if you wait too long it might be too late to succeed.

[Reichu]

Before I forget, SSD wanted me to post this bit of spam. (I wasn't going to simply because I thought the punchline was fail.) Just as a warning, it's a little vulgar.

I traveled into the future of an NGE universe where Shinji and Asuka are in a happy adult relationship and thought I might ask them how they pulled it off.

Reichu “So, you two are pretty happy together, huh?”
Asuka “Yes! Absolutely.”
Shinji “ I agree.”
Reichu “I hear you guys didn't always get along so well.”
Asuka “Well, I used to be a jealous, manipulative, egocentric bitch.”
Shinji “I used to be a selfish, prudish, Oedipal wimp who masturbated too much.”
Asuka “Neither of us knew what love was.”
Reichu “Well, granted. You were both just kids.”
Asuka “...... Well, I, er, um...”
Shinji “I didn't know how to love myself or anybody else. I was a terrible person who just grasped at shallow comforts, anything that would make me forget my pain, however briefly!!!!”
Reichu “......”
Asuka “I didn't want to like Shinji. In fact... I hated him! But I wanted him! But I hated him! He wasn't the cool guy! But I sucked too! I hated Shinji because I sucked! And he was always in his room jerking off, and he never asked me to help him! PLUS HIS KISSING SUCKED.”
Reichu “.........”
Shinji “My kissing sucked because you never told me what you wanted! You just assumed I knew! You never told me anything!”
Asuka “It's not my fault that you're an autistic dunderhead! Moron!”
Shinji “I'm not autistic! Do you even know what 'autistic' means?”
Asuka “Shut up! Who's the one who graduated from college at 13?”
Shinji “Who's the arrogant bitch?”
Asuka “Who's the wimpy little twat?”
Shinji “Who's the slut with the tiny tits who wanted Kaji-san to fuck her?”
Asuka “Who's the jerk who masturbates at the bedsides of sedated teenage girls in hospitals?”
Shinji “Who's the pervert who thought that wasn't as bad as the fact that she wasn't awake to watch it?”
Asuka “Who's the Neanderthal who thinks that throwing chairs, throttling people, and asking that doll to kill everybody is the solution to all of life's problems?”
Shinji “Don't talk about Ayanami that way!”
Asuka “Oh yeah, and both of your parents are ten times the crazy motherfuckers that mine are. I mean, becoming a mental patient is one thing, but being convinced that you ought to save the world by putting yourself in a big, ugly monster and eventually dooming yourself to float around empty space for all eternity — what the hell is wrong with your mom?!?”
Shinji “That does it! You went there!!”
Shinji proceeds to violently wring Asuka's neck.
Reichu “ The more things change...”

[NemZ]

I traveled into the future of an NGE universe where Shinji and Asuka are in a happy adult relationship and thought I might ask them how they pulled it off.

A combination of massive denial, trauma-induced amnesia, avoiding serious discussions and keeping themselves distracted with empty pleasures?

[Mr. Tines]

Asuka “I didn't want to like Shinji. In fact... I hated him! But I wanted him! But I hated him! He wasn't the cool guy! But I sucked too! I hated Shinji because I sucked! And he was always in his room jerking off, and he never asked me to help him! PLUS HIS KISSING SUCKED.”

Shinji proceeds to violently wring Asuka's neck.

I always put that down to happen about 3 weeks after he comes back from doing the recycling and the shopping to find her in bed with Touji...

[Eric Blair]

I like Pengel and Peppy Angel...

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Well, hmm, I don't necessarily see any reason why the two of them should be doomed to having to overcome their immense baggage and forming a beautiful relationship

Other than the fact they both keep asking for more, amirite? Would it be healthier for them to move on? Probably. Is it remotely possible with their personalities? Not as it stands.

On the contrary, I think ending it as a tragedy makes it all the more poignant and drives how the message that while it's never too late to try, if you wait too long it might be too late to succeed.

It also makes Yui, Rei, and Kaworu bold faced liars. What do you think the odds of that really are?

[Eric Blair]

Other than the fact they both keep asking for more, amirite? Would it be healthier for them to move on? Probably. Is it remotely possible with their personalities? Not as it stands.

Let's not forget they are children, while they have been forced to live hardships and all that, their emotional maturity is simply nonexistent at that point, however, it will come; they will eventually grow up.

I just want to believe they will grow up before killing each other, not after.

On the contrary, I think ending it as a tragedy makes it all the more poignant and drives how the message that while it's never too late to try, if you wait too long it might be too late to succeed.

Somehow, I think you forgot the message of Yui the wise before she went to that huge cooling cage in space

[Action_Bastard]

@Reichu: .................. ...................

[Reichu]

[Let's not forget they are children, while they have been forced to live hardships and all that, their emotional maturity is simply nonexistent at that point, however, it will come; they will eventually grow up.

And growing up INEVITABLY means that they must become the greatest lovers ever known to man. Or just lovers. Either way, I wonder why people as utterly fracked up as Shinji and Asuka, and with so little promise for a meaningful relationship, attract so many who want them to be together anyway. IRL, anyway, if two people demonstrate that they would only be a good couple under circumstances completely severed from their track record thus far, and they haven't provided much in the way of substantial evidence that they actually WOULD make a good couple, most people would probably not wish for them to be together or consider this a good thing at all.

The end of EoE sure doesn't convince me very much that they deserve any kind of hearty support. Yeah, you can wish them both happy endings -- notwithstanding that happiness isn't a constant, and, if Schmendrick is right, nothing ever actually ends -- but it feels rather unnecessary to wish them one together. If Anno actually wants us to be doing this, I wonder why he would leave things off with Shinji being batshit crazy and Asuka still being disgusted with him. Sure, both of them can still have the potential for "happiness" and all, but is it somehow better to think that they, in some utterly contrived manner, find it together, as opposed to with someone else or, heathens forbid, ALONE?

If they were established lovers in the first place who subsequently encountered serious amounts of hardship, then I might be rooting for them to overcome their problems and recover what they had, but Shinji and Asuka never actually had anything in that sense, so there's nothing to root for.

In summation, I'm being a broken record, and shipping is terribly confusing.

[NemZ]

It also makes Yui, Rei, and Kaworu bold faced liars. What do you think the odds of that really are?

They never said they -would- come back... just that they could, if they wanted to. ...which most of them apparently don't, and with good reason.

Somehow, I think you forgot the message of Yui the wise before she went to that huge cooling cage in space

Yui the secret mastermind behind nearly all the human suffering and tragedy in the entire show? That Yui?

Seriously though (not that I was completely joking in the above) the philosophy that 'paradise' means just being willing to put up with more shit isn't exactly something I agree with. In fact it sounds like she's trying to give him a tiny ray of hope before tossing him headfirst into what she knows is probably going to be a steaming pile.

[Reichu]

Yui the secret mastermind behind nearly all the human suffering and tragedy in the entire show? That Yui? <snip>

Further discussion should be conducted in one of the "Yui is a stupid bitch, etc., etc." threads, such as this one or this one.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Sure, both of them can still have the potential for "happiness" and all, but is it somehow better to think that they, in some utterly contrived manner, find it together, as opposed to with someone else or, heathens forbid, ALONE?

If they were capable of walking away they would have. Asuka, despite all her discust, STILL came back to him for more. The draw to one another is portrayed as inescapably weather they like it or not (mind rape). It's not really about what's best for them, it's more of them not really having a choice. They either work it out or they kill each other.

They never said they -would- come back... just that they could, if they wanted to. ...which most of them apparently don't, and with good reason.

Shinji, we want you to live with the very real chance that you will never see anyone again. Your future is practicly hopeless. Enjoy your misery because it is all you will have... Really... They do expect people will come back. They wouldn't have let Shinji go back otherwise. If they thought there would be an issue they would have forced everyone back because they don't really give a damn about anyone other than Shinji. Then there is all that wonderful implication during the end of 3I with full city.

[Lucretius]

Seriously though (not that I was completely joking in the above) the philosophy that 'paradise' means just being willing to put up with more shit isn't exactly something I agree with.

Nevertheless, that viewpoint is stated many times throughout the show, and not just by Yui. E.g.:

*FUYUTSUKI:
I'd prefer a world where people live, no matter how stained with sin.

*IKARI (OFF):
So he will live in this world, in the hell after the Second Impact?
YUI (OFF):
Oh, but if you have the will to live, anywhere can be heaven.
Because he is alive. He'll have plenty of chances to find happiness.

*FUYUTSUKI:
It's a delicate thing that can be completely transformed
just by how you perceive something. The truth within people, that is.

*Shinji:
One possibility that's in me.
The me right now is not exactly who I am.
All sorts of me's are possible.
That's right. A me that's not an Eva pilot is possible too.
Misato:
When you think of it that way, this world of reality isn't so bad.

*Kaworu:
For it is the hearts of people that create their appearance.
Rei:
And new images will change peoples' hearts and appearances.
Images... the power of imagination... The power to create your own future, and to make time flow.

[Reichu]

Further discussion should be conducted in one of the "Yui is a stupid bitch, etc., etc." threads, such as this one or this one.

Don't tell me I have to do another split.

[Rhyno]

Again, interpretations of the Asuka/Shinji relationship is subjective by nature and, as I have said, tells much about the person who believes the theories they subscribe to. I happen to know that NemZ wants Shinji to suffer. He wants the series to end in tragedy. Asuka and Shinji developing a healthy relationship in which they help one another would go against his 'Shinji suffering' perspective. NemZ will not acknowledge a message of hope since it contradicts his interpretation of suffering.

I've read and heard the points of view about all the negative aspects of the many characters that would lead to no one returning and Shinji and Asuka both suffering alone. I just can't buy into that. The message I took from the show wasn't that life just sucks and people are inherently selfish and evil. The message I took is that people have the ability to hurt one another by isolating ourselves and therefore isolating others. We also have the ability to help one another, but it involves making ourselves vulnerable to the hurt we are trying to avoid. I see this representation in the Asuka/Shinji relationship.

Basically, I'm too optimistic to buy into the pessimistic theories of a tragic ending when the ending is vague enough for interpretation.

[IrkenEvangelion]

Amen!

[Reichu]

Again, interpretations of the Asuka/Shinji relationship is subjective by nature and, as I have said, tells much about the person who believes the theories they subscribe to.

What if you technically don't "believe" anything and question everything? That's sort of where I find myself right now. I used to think the evidence pointed to some clear-cut "conclusion", but it has indeed become overwhelmingly apparent how susceptible something like Shinji and Asuka's relationship is to projection on all sides. I really want to know what Anno was trying to "achieve" with this giant mess, and I doubt it can be terribly straightforward.

Basically, I'm too optimistic to buy into the pessimistic theories of a tragic ending when the ending is vague enough for interpretation.

It doesn't have to necessarily be "tragic" -- just not invariably resulting in A/S fodder. Especially the 100% Sucrose kind or the bipolar WAFF-Angst kind. I wonder if the fans that have Shinji and Asuka adoringly walking hand-in-hand down that desolate beach (if not making out right after the choking scene or whatever) have just destroyed any sense of perspective I have on this issue.