Big trouble in little Discussion

[ZapX]

Guys...It's a forum, not a PowerPoint presentation...

[The Eva Monkey]

Guys...It's a forum, not a PowerPoint presentation...

If it were a PowerPoint presentation, it would not be anywhere near as overly verbose as this.

[Formless One]

The thing is they both have something in common, a blatant disreguard for physics. I ignored it as long as I could but sitting through series after series that does it I can't pretend it isn't the case.

You seem to have missed the point: all speculative fiction disregards RL physics (barring the most anal hard science fiction). And yet people still try to justify events in STAR TREK of all things, where the only rule is the writer gets paid at the end of the day. Did I not mention that I have seen people argue about outright MAGIC? And actually get somewhere?

Its not just science; all shows have an internal logic that can be understood if you just try to piece it together logically. The easy way to find that logic is to use a scientific approach. I have said over and over and over and over and over ad infinitum that science is about what we see, not just what is true in reality. It does not have to work by RL physics! That's the whole point!

With that in mind, it is either a Red Herring, Strawman, or horrible generalization to think that things in Gundam have any impact on Eva, just because they both work by physical laws not found in reality.

You're right I am.

Well, I am burned out on people like you, who do not understand the basic tenant of science is observation. Your arguments are grasping at straws just to justify ignorance of how things in Eva (and other anime) work.

Too bad.

One more reason to stay off Discussion. Bad attitude is bad.

Maybe you should ask yourself why it keeps happening. It isn't without a reason.

Not without reason does not justify that reason. If its a bad reason, its still a bad reason, DUH!

Again, Bad attitudes are bad.

It's to establish a pattern I'm affraid... They both do it to rather absurd degrees. Like I said, there is a reason for the attitude. Watch some more anime series and see just how common it really is and how dumb it gets. Your pantients will probably dry up rather quickly too.

I don't give two whits about other anime! This discussion, this Board, is about Eva! The pattern is found everywhere, but just because the writers are dicks doesn't mean we must throw out a valid tool-set. You're logic is about as solid as the vacuum of space.

I disagree. Boiling liquid burns, dirt being pushed by a shockwave goes in open windows. LOL ANIME PHYSICS isn't reasonable.

And explanations like "the AT field weakened it" or "LCL boils at a different temperature" or "LCL insulates against the heat" never ocurred to you? And how does that event have anything to do with other things that happened in the show? Its like saying if you were to see a UFO fly faster than light in reality, had proof that it was doing just that, and then saying that all science is invalid when FTL has everything to do with gravity or natural selection. That logic flows... along the river Styx.

I think you kinda missed the point. Science isn't going to yield that answer. At least not approved science. In series pseudo-science? Sure. It's still pseudo-science though.

Look up the word pseudo-science before shooting your mouth off, will you? Because that is not what it means. If the theory uses observation, suspends disbelief, and follows a logical premise, its scientific. But hey, you've ignored me right up till now, why stop just because you are flat wrong?

Yes I have. It's a gripe I have with all writers at this point. Silly convoluted writing is dumb. If you don't want the main character to die use plot shield via luck, not plot shield via LOL ANIME PHYSICS.

The writers are not us. We can be better then them without disrespecting their material.



Basically AEF, if you don't like science then just stay the heck out of scientific debates! Don't harass people who get it just because you have a problem understanding the most basic tenets of the method! Don't go out of your way to ruin other people's fun just because you think its not fun! What kind of moron keeps doing something they do not find fun?

And BTW, AEF, a more general complain about you're debate style in general that I have brought up before:

Broken records are broken

Truth is true.

and yet this whole argument has boiled down to that again.

<wall>

That was very illuminating, thank you. It shows a part of this boards culture I had no other way of knowing. The one eyed man rules the blind after all. This is not something that I could have found out on the wiki or by reading seasonal specials. Although it is opinionated and therefor should be taken with a grain of salt, I would suggest all my fellow newbs to listen to this mans sad tale. It is well worth your time; the negative aspects of this forum are not clearer anywhere else without having to experience them yourself. I hope in the future we might improve; is that not what feedback forums are all about?

[Sailor Star Dust]

Although it is opinionated and therefore should be taken with a grain of salt,

It should be.

You weren't around when all the V drama was happening.

I hope in the future we might improve; is that not what feedback forums are all about?

Exactly.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

You seem to have missed the point: all speculative fiction disregards RL physics (barring the most anal hard science fiction).

No really? Why do you think I quit trying?

And yet people still try to justify events in STAR TREK of all things

I don't, it's a waste of time.

all shows have an internal logic that can be understood if you just try to piece it together logically

I've seen too many retcons to buy that.

The easy way to find that logic is to use a scientific approach

Not when the logic is absent.

It does not have to work by RL physics! That's the whole point!

It does to be believable.

With that in mind, it is either a Red Herring, Strawman, or horrible generalization to think that things in Gundam have any impact on Eva, just because they both work by physical laws not found in reality.

Excuse me for having issue with things as retarded as dirt not going in an open window or lifeforms altering mass for no reason.

Well, I am burned out on people like you, who do not understand the basic tenant of science is observation.

I understand it full well and I observe things that can not be explained at all.

Your arguments are grasping at straws just to justify ignorance of how things in Eva (and other anime) work.

Impossible events are impossible. Resorting to it doesn't have to make sense is my issue. I'm sick of giving them a free pass on this shit.

One more reason to stay off Discussion. Bad attitude is bad.

Not my fault you can't grasp how bad it really is.

but just because the writers are dicks doesn't mean we must throw out a valid tool-set

Okay, let me rephrase it. Scientific knowledge is useless. Happy now?

And explanations like "the AT field weakened it" or "LCL boils at a different temperature" or "LCL insulates against the heat" never ocurred to you?

They did and I quickly dismissed them because the armor outside the core was molten.

And how does that event have anything to do with other things that happened in the show?

It shows the author's respect for scientific knowledge.

Its like saying if you were to see a UFO fly faster than light in reality, had proof that it was doing just that, and then saying that all science is invalid when FTL has everything to do with gravity or natural selection

Since they'd probable be bending gravity yes I'd say our knowledge on the matter is wrong.

Look up the word pseudo-science before shooting your mouth off, will you? Because that is not what it means. If the theory uses observation, suspends disbelief, and follows a logical premise, its scientific.

My disbelief is dead, way to get the point Also.

Basically AEF, if you don't like science

I have no issue with science, I have issue with anime. Please keep up.

then just stay the heck out of scientific debates!

Nope. If I think they're pointless I will voice my opinion.

What kind of moron keeps doing something they do not find fun?

What kind of moron has to call someone a moron because they can't understand what they are being told?

[Sailor Star Dust]

Cool it.

[Formless One]

AEF, I was going to give you another full rebuttle, but it seems to me you have proven why you are a problem in Discussion. You are just voicing your opinion. But I must tell you this; No One Cares What Your Opinion Is. Other people are entitled to their own opinion, and may not share your own. Do not force your opinion on others like it is necessarily right.

If someone wants to waste their time in an exercise that you have decreed pointless, that is their problem, not yours. Stop derailing peoples conversations just because you do not like the way they are conducted. Just because you do not like Eva for flaws you find glaring does not mean it is relevant to what people are talking about. Find something else to do. If you cannot, and you do not find it to be enjoyable (I suppose you do not, but I could be wrong), then it truly is stupid to carry on like that! As the schoolyard bullies say, "why are you hitting yourself?"

I see no reason to have an issue with anime just because it is as convoluted or more than stuff from America. I do see reason to think that this is a bad attitude that should be purged from Discussion.

You have no suspension of disbelief left, clearly you no longer care. We do. Don't act like you are so high and mighty just because you have come to an opinion that others disagree with. The fact is that that is not keeping an open mind, something that is a must in a place like Discussion.

[UrsusArctos]

Enough.

Locked for the time being.

[The Imperialist]

I have been missing for a few days because, to put it striaght forward, the Eva related discussion places are becoming less interesting to reply to. I mean, look at it. There are sometimes complete repeats of what people are saying, and various other things. Could there be, like, better quality control kind of measures?

[Rhyno]

Could there be, like, better quality control kind of measures?

Putting up more restrictions on what can and can't be posted will only decrease the amount of discussions. Personally, the Rei/Shinji and Asuka/Shinji threads have been two of my favorites to participate in thus far. People like Chrad, SSD, Lucretius and even those like Reichu (who straddle the fence at best or disagree at worst) have given me more insight into the characters and the relationships of the show.

[UrsusArctos]

Unlocked/merged. Put a long answer short, we just can't have "discussion on demand". Impy, you might want to go through the replies earlier in this thread.

[Enki v.2]

BTW, does anyone else have any ideas on what the real problem is in Discussion? (remembering of course that that is the topic)

I suggest that we have a sort of community rule (in the tradition of Wikipedia's "good faith" rule) that says "nothing is true". Considering that the problems in discussion mostly come out of people arguing and being mean/defensive about pet theories (about subjects that are, in fact, not true in even the most materialist-realist sense, forgetting my bouts of amateur nihilism/solipism/externism), if we enforce the rule that no one theory can ever be ultimately decided as "correct" (only as rated "really really likely, probably, unless canon changes or Anno writes a book or somebody comes up with something better"), there shouldn't be any arguing since there is nothing to defend or compete over -- it would just be discussion.

[Rhyno]

I suggest that we have a sort of community rule (in the tradition of Wikipedia's "good faith" rule) that says "nothing is true".

I think I really like that idea. I'm not so sure it would have to be a rule as much as a guideline to remind people that other interpretations are possible.

[Mr. Tines]

And that there is a difference between "fact" and "inference" -- it can only be inferred that Ritsuko was raped (though the room for significantly different interpretations is limited), but it would not be true to say that Asuka's hair is blue



and now for something completely different

[Formless One]

I've been wondering: are the problems in Discussion limited to Discussion? I notice a couple threads in Off Topic that have gotten political and heated as well that seem as if they suffer from similar attitudes and presentation quality. For example, anyone remember The flawed concept of "the hero" in modern culture? which, BTW started life as a split off of a Discussion thread. Or, to a lesser but more obvious degree, some recent political threads. As slothen puts it:

i've said it once and i'll say it again, discussion of world politics, particularly with respect to American foreign policy, immediately turns to FAIL and AIDS when brought to this message board.

Of course, politics has always drawn lots of fire, so maybe its to be expected to a certain degree. But then, its not necessarily just those of course. I wonder if any one else sees any parallels between [Eva] Discussion and discussions/debates in Off Topic.





Oh, before anyone comes and tries to attack me for saying this or points out my personal flaws again, I want to emphasize that I am only saying something that I have seen and that other people seem to agree with. I name no names, just point out threads which might be relevant.

[Enki v.2]

They aren't, but maybe the solutions are. After all, off topic is off topic, and therefore more tangental; a screwed up discussion forum is worse than a screwed up off topic forum because discussion is closer to the main focus. So, for better or for worse, discussion is the priority, I guess.

That said, it is possible to do what I've seen done on other boards -- let only the off topic board go to hell, and then dump it off.