LCL and instrumentality: a 'humans only' club?

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LCL and instrumentality: a 'humans only' club?

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Postby NemZ » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:07 pm

Humans obviously are LCL creatures, but what about other mammals? insects? plants?

I wonder because trees are visible in the "Rei's head fall down go boom" pic that Mr. Tines is so fond of. Are plants Adam-based life, or did they just not get the invitation to instrumentality? Was Pen^2 in there somewhere? What about all the damned cicadas?

Won't somebody please think of the cicadas!
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:18 pm

SEELE said all lifeforms at the start of EoE.
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Postby Noephon » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:22 pm

'It is a sacrament that will unite the divine, the human, and all other forms of life in death.'

So yes. Although plant and fungal life probably comes back automatically after Shinji pulls the plug: see the farmland in the Shinji-Rei-Kaworu scene. Also, on more utilitarian grounds, it'd kind of have to, since I doubt a tree or a mushroom can imagine itself in its kokoro (which I'm not going to translate into 'heart' since these things don't have organs anyway).
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Postby Iron Rooster » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:52 pm

So, my Pen^2 during instrumentality thread is not total BS! And someone brought the idea up! I wonder what the animals saw during instrumentality?
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Postby NemZ » Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:20 am

Um... female hot spring penguin with bushy blue eyebrows? :w00t:

I would kinda expect the lack of a concept of self to imagine oneself with would make it a hell of a lot harder for plants and such to come back, not easier.
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Postby Rhyno » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:56 am

One could also argue that it would be easier for plants and such to come back since they wouldn't have consciousness getting in the way of conceptualizing themselves. That have been plants... they probably remained plants in instrumentality... they will return as plants. There are no conceptual complications for these lifeforms.

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:14 pm

I never thought it made any sense for other lifeforms to partake in the Human Instrumentality Project. Every other reference to the deal (including Misato's monologue about it, minutes before Kiel's line) implies that it is an attempt to evolve humans throughout artificial means. Third Impact itself would, however, kill everybody due to the Anti-A.T. Field required to free up everyone's souls. I wonder if maybe Kiel was referring to that instead... We're "united in death" because we all get to die, but only the humans get to go on and become a giant soul-blob.

But knowing how troublesome this show likes being, probably not.
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Postby Xard » Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:34 pm

Reichu wrote:I never thought it made any sense for other lifeforms to partake in the Human Instrumentality Project. Every other reference to the deal (including Misato's monologue about it, minutes before Kiel's line) implies that it is an attempt to evolve humans throughout artificial means. Third Impact itself would, however, kill everybody due to the Anti-A.T. Field required to free up everyone's souls. I wonder if maybe Kiel was referring to that instead... We're "united in death" because we all get to die, but only the humans get to go on and become a giant soul-blob.

But knowing how troublesome this show likes being, probably not.


I think you're on to something.

After all if trees went blop they wouldn't materialize at the same spot, they would materialize in LCL sea

Conscious animals propably went blop and pretty much came back immeaditly afterwards.

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Postby Rhyno » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:23 pm

This could lead to a troubling conclusion. The entire planet is devoid of all floral!... except what is floating around in the LCL ocean.

I would agree that animals probably immediately returned, but they would quickly die off if they had nothing to consume... along with us shortly thereafter.

I guess I'm going to go for an 'out of story' reason to think otherwise: Do I think that is the type of ending Anno intended? I know that's speculation, but I don't think Anno had Shinji decide to 'bring humanity back' only to have it die off from starvation. To give an in story reason, perhaps 'floral' was unaffected by the Anti-A.T. Field. Perhaps they simply had no souls to release. There was no ego barrier to penetrate. The plant-life is right where it was before third impact.

I realize that might reasoning might be flawed, but I just don't think the ending was intended to be that bleak.

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Postby Xard » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:26 pm

Yui says all living things can return back. There's no reason to suppose if as complicate and troubled people like Asuka and Shinji could come back some instinct based lizard should have no problem

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:32 pm

All (Lilith-based, anyway) lifeforms are affected by Anti A.T. Fields. This is rather implicit when Fuyutsuki mentions how everything "down to microorganisms" was eradicated at the South Pole. Yui also says in EoE that all lifeforms have the ability to return, which means that all lifeforms would need to have souls and A.T. Fields and thus be "Tangifiable" in the first place.

Simplest explanation, IMO, is that all "normal" organisms are liquified for 3I. We interpret around Kiel's line and assume that only human souls are collected by GNR, whereas everyone else just sits around wherever they had splattered. The moment A.T. Fields are restored, they're free to spring back to life from whatever LCL is available. IT'S MAAAAAAAAAAAGIC!
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Postby Rhyno » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:42 pm

Was second impact the same phenomenon as third impact? I was under the impression that second impact was the destruction of Adam's S-2 engine. Plus, Misato was protected by being put into a lifeboat. Could people survive (not be tangified) if they were in some sort of secure bunker during third impact?

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Postby Reichu » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:55 pm

Rhyno wrote:Was second impact the same phenomenon as third impact?

When the Eva Series and Eva-01 generate an Anti A.T. Field, Maya remarks that the data matches that from Second Impact.

I was under the impression that second impact was the destruction of Adam's S-2 engine.

The S2 Engine went haywire and resulted in Adam exploding in a really big way. It involved various other things, though, like Adam generating an Anti A.T. Field that affected the vicinity of Antarctica.

Plus, Misato was protected by being put into a lifeboat.

Emergency capsule equipped with plot shield, actually.
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Postby Rhyno » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:36 pm

Reichu wrote:Emergency capsule equipped with plot shield, actually.
Plot shield :grin: Very nice. I guess that's why I always thought second impact was fundamentally different than third impact. Thanks for the explanation.

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Postby Monk Ed » Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:02 pm

Second Impact appears almost identical to Third Impact, minus the "medium of souls" fusing souls into one, and that Katsuragi-tachi managed to decrease the area of effect of the AATF.

In ep21' the scientists' voices describe the Door of Gaf opening, Adam spreading its wings, heading towards the surface... and it seems to have been started by using the Lance to try to put (human?) DNA into Adam. Adam seemed to suck the Lance in. Perhaps it pierced his S2, since in EoE it is the piercing of an S2 by a Lance that causes the AATF.

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Postby Reichu » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:15 am

Monk Ed wrote:Katsuragi-tachi managed to decrease the area of effect of the AATF.

Well, Katsuragi had already run off with Misato by the time the team was doing that, not that this is especially important.

In ep21' the scientists' voices describe the Door of Gaf opening

It's Guf, and there are two Doors (one on each palm).

it seems to have been started by using the Lance to try to put (human?) DNA into Adam.

The human donor was presumably used to administer the DNA, since that's what the contact experiment was actually with. The Spear came into employ after things had already started to go wrong, in a failed attempt to restrain Adam.

in EoE it is the piercing of an S2 by a Lance that causes the AATF.

Nope. Eva-01 and the Eva Series were generating an AATF before any of that business happened.

Anyway, this is getting a little off-topic.
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Postby Monk Ed » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:19 am

Reichu wrote:
In ep21' the scientists' voices describe the Door of Gaf opening

It's Guf, and there are two Doors (one on each palm).

Some time after making that post, I read about the production notes describing them in GNR's hands.

it seems to have been started by using the Lance to try to put (human?) DNA into Adam.

The human donor was presumably used to administer the DNA, since that's what the contact experiment was actually with. The Spear came into employ after things had already started to go wrong, in a failed attempt to restrain Adam.

Is that from the CI or does another source corroborate it? The lines "The Lance! Pull the Lance back!" "It's sinking in!" had me thinking that things went wrong while it was already in and so they thought they should try to take it out, but then when that failed they had it make Adam use up as much of its AATF energy as possible.

in EoE it is the piercing of an S2 by a Lance that causes the AATF.

Nope. Eva-01 and the Eva Series were generating an AATF before any of that business happened.

My mistake. I'll have to look at it again. Though, is generating the same as releasing?

Whoops, you're right, this is drifting off topic.


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