Pill Popping Ayanami

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Postby SaltyJoe » Tue May 26, 2009 3:52 am

Timstuff wrote:Well, that still doesn't really explain hyper happy Rei in e26.


I'm going to take the Evageeks Wiki's stance here, and dub that girl Rei In Appearance Only. May guess that she was made into a genki girl for the alternate reality sequence of Ep. 26 because the writing staff thought it would be hilarious (and they were right).

Also, how do we know that Rei hasn't been lied to about the nature of her medication?


I don't see the point of lying to her about such a thing when Nerv would be totally capable to actually make the threat real. Also, she did have her uber A.T. field (whether she truly had it before Ep. 23 is up for debate, though), so preventing her from going rampant, seems to me, would be a top priority.

Also, I think it's open to debate as to whether Rei is a literal avatar for Lilith's soul, or if each Rei clone posses a soul of its own,


Episode 23 wrote:
Misato: This is?

Ritsuko: These are dummies.
And nothing but parts for Rei.

(.....)

Shinji: Human?
Is that a human?

Ritsuko: Yes, that's a human.
Eva, which did not have a soul ab initio,
now that has a human soul.
All of these are salvaged.
However the vessel which truly contains a soul is Rei.
Only she has a soul.
None of the other vessels have a soul.

There was nothing within the room of Gaff.
These Rei-like things here do not have a soul.
Nothing but vessels.

So I will destroy them, because I hate them.


Granted, Ritsuko is not omniscient, but i think we can trust her on this one.


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Postby Timstuff » Tue May 26, 2009 4:48 am

It's been about a year or so since I last saw that episode, so my memory was a bit hazy. But on the other hand, do we even know what Ritsuko's definition of a soul is? Is the soul a person's memory, or some abstract metaphysical concept that represents a person's ability to live as a human? If thoughts and memory are the primary qualifier, then the dummy Reis are most certainly soulless. If it's something more than that though, which can't be truly be scientifically quantified, then there's not really any way of knowing how "complete" each incarnation of Rei's soul is.

Another thing that I think needs consideration though, is the behavior of Rei I in comparison to Rei II. Rei I had a markedly different personality than Rei II. Some people would argue that this is because her soul was "more complete," and that Rei II only got half of it because the other half went into Unit 00. However, that still doesn't explain why they both are socially detached. Rei I may have been less quiet, but she was a cold backstabber. Rei II on the other hand is quiet, but she is also compassionate (and in the manga she had a bit of a sweet side to her as well). If Rei II had only part of Rei I's soul, then she wouldn't be showing a different personality-- she'd be showing less personality.

In the case of Rei III, her depression and complete social detachment could be seen as a side effect to having Rei II's memories imprinted onto a new body. Regardless as to whether Ritsuko's definition of a soul extends beyond thoughts and memories, it seems like the transfer to Rei III was not without harsh side effects. Rei III clearly did not identify with Rei II's memories being her own, and if it was the exact same spiritual soul being transferred from one vessel to another, then there shouldn't have been any "compatibility issues" between the soul and memories.

The whole soul argument is a mess simply because Evangelion's use of the soul as a plot device is so convoluted to begin with, but none of this is addressing my original thoughts-- if we are operating under the belief that "genki Rei" may represent Rei in her natural state, if for some reason she existed in a world without Evangelion (or at the very least, a world where she has had a better upbringing), would it be fair to assume that her medication in the 25 "normal episodes" affects her personality and mood somehow?
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Postby SaltyJoe » Tue May 26, 2009 5:26 am

Timstuff wrote:If it's something more than that though, which can't be truly be scientifically quantified, then there's not really any way of knowing how "complete" each incarnation of Rei's soul is.


In the world of NGE, metaphysics and metabiology are considered real sciences, so it is possible that there is quantitative definition for a soul in them. Recall Ritsuko's ramblings when they were retrieving Shinji from Eva-01.


(and in the manga she had a bit of a sweet side to her as well). If Rei II had only part of Rei I's soul, then she wouldn't be showing a different personality-- she'd be showing less personality.


Yoda:"Relevant to the anime the manga is not."

I think your logic falters here a bit: you just called out that we can't quantitatively define souls, and now your trying to measure personality? We can't possibly know what a soul splitting would induce in a person. How one can run on half a soul (or less)? It can greatly vary from person to person (the only other victim of soul splitting in the series besides Rei was Kyoko, and her reaction differed wildly from Rei's, as did her circumstances. Well there was one similarity: Kyoko also felt an urge to die.), so we can't just say that she would be showing "less" personality because she has "less" soul.

EDIT:
There is a popular theory stating that Rei the Thirds quirks can be attributed to the fact that the part of her soul that resided in Eva-00 became merged with the rest of it when she sacrificed herself in Ep. 23.
I think this theory is a pretty cool guy. Eh explains stuff and doesn't afraid of anything!Obsolete meme is obsolete.


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Postby BattleMonkey » Tue May 26, 2009 8:16 am

Rei seems to melt, so it's anti melting pills... duh! :P

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Postby VoidEater » Tue May 26, 2009 12:47 pm

It seems NGE uses "soul" in the Judaic sense of "breath of life", hence an animating force that imbues those qualities we associate with "life".

It appears that certain attributes might attach to the soul at some point, a kind of memory for example in the case of Rei III; perhaps NGE attaches a kind of identity to the soul, but this appears to be a process born out of time and growth as an incarnate entity.

The soul seems likely to be related to Buddhist "being".

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Postby Enki v.2 » Tue May 26, 2009 1:07 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizotypal_personality_disorder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorazine#Adverse_effects
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risperidone#Side_effects
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clozapine#Off-label_and_investigational_drug_use
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clozapine#Adverse_effects

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Postby NemZ » Tue May 26, 2009 1:55 pm

Interesting stuff, enki!
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Postby Timstuff » Tue May 26, 2009 2:24 pm

Yeah, good post. I shall have to set aside some time to look through all that, because it looks like interesting info. :)
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Postby Evayo » Tue May 26, 2009 2:25 pm

Without the pills Rei would be exactly like she was in ep26. :boingy:

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Postby Timstuff » Tue May 26, 2009 2:29 pm

Evayo wrote:Without the pills Rei would be exactly like she was in ep26. :boingy:


Some would disagree, but not me. :jiggy:
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue May 26, 2009 2:50 pm

Uhh, Rei's personality just simply wouldn't ALLOW her to be like "Transfer student Rei" seen in episode 26, guys. She's an introvert by nature while RiAO is (extremely) extroverted.

Also:
Reichu sometime last year wrote:Anyone check out the screenshot of the meds in Rei's apartment from episode 23? She hasn't taken any of those things in quite some time...

A genga of the version from the Third Annex is published in Groundwork 3, and it's a big easier to see everything. I'll try to scan it in later.


lol.
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Postby Logan Payne » Tue May 26, 2009 3:00 pm

Evayo wrote:Without the pills Rei would be exactly like she was in ep26. :boingy:


No

I'm pretty sure it's not going to be that even on a cold day.

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Re: Rei's medication

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Postby Eric Blair » Tue May 26, 2009 3:12 pm

Timstuff wrote:what if the reason for Rei's unusual behavior is because this is Rei un-medicated?


SaltyJoe wrote:^
I don't know. I think it is easier to assume that Rei's detached personality was do to the fact that her soul has been split all over the place (Rei, Eva-00 and a fracture of her soul possibly remained inside Lilith).


Timstuff wrote:Well, that still doesn't really explain hyper happy Rei in e26.


Episode 26's infamous 10 minutes that spawned Love Eva are nothing more than a field trip into Shinji's broken psyche; nothing that happens there should be taken literally; in fact nothing that happens in Eva or EoE should be taken literally, unless Anno says it should, but since Anno speaks in runes and almost no one here understands runes, then the matter should be approached with a sign that says "he might be trolling".

Also, Rei in EoE is not taking her meds (presumably) and doesn't seem to be jumping up and down out of her skin, but rather seems to be falling out of it CRAWWWWWWWWLING IN MY SKIIIIIIIIIIIN!
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue May 26, 2009 3:22 pm

Eric wrote:Also, Rei in EoE is not taking her meds (presumably) and doesn't seem to be jumping up and down out of her skin


Indeed. On the contrary, she seems well-adjusted for Rei (having Lilith's soul and all).

are nothing more than a field trip into Shinji's broken psyche;


...That happened to be shared with everyone else, don't forget.

unless Anno says it should, but since Anno speaks in runes and almost no one here understands runes, then the matter should be approached with a sign that says "he might be trolling".


:hitthetable:

EDIT: For those interested, read http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=4276 on the Rei vs RIAO debate.
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Re: Rei's medication

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Postby Timstuff » Tue May 26, 2009 4:05 pm

Eric Blair wrote:Also, Rei in EoE is not taking her meds (presumably) and doesn't seem to be jumping up and down out of her skin, but rather seems to be falling out of it CRAWWWWWWWWLING IN MY SKIIIIIIIIIIIN!


I also think Rei was off of her medication during EoE, and this idea works whether you believe the meds were to keep her sedated, of if you believe they were actually the only thing holding her body together. In my scenario, where "happy Rei" is Rei in her normal state of being, then if she went off her meds during EoE it would explain why she stopped obeying Gendo and started acting on her own. If she had been medicated for a very long time ago, then it's possible that she has formed some kind of dependence on the drugs, and going cold turkey has some undesirable side effects of its own (possibly the "worsened depression and thoughts of suicide" that the commercials warn about). It's possible that the trauma of being resurrected was enough to worsen Rei's depression to the point where she didn't even feel like taking the pills anymore.

When Rei was falling apart during EoE, it could be because she was no longer taking some kind of life sustaining supplements as many have speculated, but it's also possible that she'd simply become so depressed and detached from reality that her body was no longer holding itself together. She's part angel, part human, and it's been hinted that an angel's form is the result of that angel's own will, and if Rei was losing her will to live then that would explain why her form was deteriorating. Unlike normal humans who largely retain our shape regardless of what's going on upstairs, I think it's possible that since Rei is part angel, a mental breakdown affects her physically.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Tue May 26, 2009 4:15 pm

Rei's not an Angel in the way you think she is. Especially since either way you slice it, she's not one of Adam's Children.

As for the pills thing, Rei's personality doesn't change once she becomes a godlike, omnipresent, discorporate uber-soul thing, so I'm assuming her personality isn't the cause of drugs.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue May 26, 2009 4:28 pm

Timstuff wrote:if she had been medicated for a very long time ago,


Supposedly we see a cut or two of her pills from that room she was born in at Nerv, or there's some implication that she took pills even back then.

(possibly the "worsened depression and thoughts of suicide" that the commercials warn about)


Actually, those commercials are warning about how severely depressed people taking medication can become elevated into a composed enough state where they finally decide to kill themselves. (This information was passed onto me by my MD so I know it's not BS.)

When Rei was falling apart during EoE,


Rei fell apart because Rei wanted death. In both EoTV and EoE she states how she wants to die and return to nothing. Besides, if she already helped ensure Shinji's happiness, she probably didn't see the need to live on anymore. (But hey, at least her soul is still around as the final scene shows.)

I wish I could find the thread that discussed Rei and her deathwish (there was some EvaYojimbo discussion in it too.) Maybe it was this one: http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=5526

AuraTwilight wrote:Rei's personality doesn't change once she becomes a godlike, omnipresent, discorporate uber-soul thing, so I'm assuming her personality isn't the cause of drugs.


Yes.

Also, Rei vs RiAO debate here: http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=4276

Edit: lol typo I just noticed so many years after the fact.
Last edited by Sailor Star Dust on Fri May 11, 2012 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Timstuff » Tue May 26, 2009 4:30 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:Rei's not an Angel in the way you think she is. Especially since either way you slice it, she's not one of Adam's Children.

As for the pills thing, Rei's personality doesn't change once she becomes a godlike, omnipresent, discorporate uber-soul thing, so I'm assuming her personality isn't the cause of drugs.


Well, I'm using the word "Angel" to describe Lilith as well as Adam and its children, although I'm not sure that's an accurate use of the term. :tongue:

I think that a change in Rei's personality would not be immediately apparent when she stopped taking the pills, because if she'd been taking them for years it would have had some permanent effects on how she views the world and behaves. Given enough time it might have been possible for Rei to recover and be an emotionally healthy girl, but if the Rei from e26 was one who had practically never seen a pill bottle in her whole life and had a fairly normal upbringing, it only makes sense that she'd have a remarkably different personality than the recently un-doped Rei from EoE.

If someone is on personality altering drugs for a very long time, stopping use of them would not have an overnight 180 effect on how the person behaves, feels, and thinks. However, Rei finally standing up to Gendo was definitely a noticeable change from her previous behavior that could be chalked up to being unmediated.
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Postby Evayo » Tue May 26, 2009 5:28 pm

Logan Payne wrote:No
I'm pretty sure it's not going to be that even on a cold day.


Then I guess... the other way around? :nyao: Nyeh heh...

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue May 26, 2009 7:01 pm

Timstuff wrote:because if she'd been taking them for years it would have had some permanent effects


According to the script, among other things:

Rei 1 was only 5 years old in the 2010 flashback, Rei 2 is chronologically 4 at the youngest.

Granted, medication can affect people but I don't think something like whatever it is Rei happens to affect her personality.
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