A.T. Field Technicalities

[Monk Ed]

It was. The AATF never stopped until Rei stopped it when Shinji wanted everyone to have their individuality back. Once the merging of souls is complete the AATF wouldn't be needed anymore because everyone would be gone.

But everyone didn't immediately pop back into existence once the AATF stopped, is what I mean, implying it's not something a soul automatically projects at all times regardless of will. However, it seems instead you say it's something that only continues projecting regardless of will after an act of will gets it started, so I suppose this isn't an actual point of contention.

To regain it, not to maintain it. The ATF is a constant reguardless of will once it is started.

The difference is that you say it has to be connected to a soul at all times or else it goes poof. I say it does not, and I hold the Rei clones as proof.

Here's even further proof: when Ritsuko destroys the clones, her PDA says "destrudo release". What is that if not an ATF self-destruct? (Or not even necessarily a self-destruct, but something related to the breaking down of ATFs.)

No, just no. The ATF is part of the soul. People have ATFs without bodies. Which leads us to this.

There doesn't have to be an iron wall between body and soul. Why can't the ATF be a metaphysical part of the body that is created by a soul, is usually bound to a soul (thus also making it part of the soul), and controlled by the soul, which binds the soul to the flesh? It is what anchors the soul to the body and makes them a unified whole in the first place -- an individual. Without this glue, the two fall apart and separate.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

But everyone didn't immediately pop back into existence once the AATF stopped, is what I mean, implying it's not something a soul automatically projects at all times regardless of will. However, it seems instead you say it's something that only continues projecting regardless of will after an act of will gets it started, so I suppose this isn't an actual point of contention.

They still had their ATFs they just hadn't regained their form yet.

The difference is that you say it has to be connected to a soul at all times or else it goes poof. I say it does not, and I hold the Rei clones as proof.

Yui and Shinji. They had their souls ripped out of their bodies and look at what happened. That wasn't because of an AATF, just their souls being completely removed in an instant.

There doesn't have to be an iron wall between body and soul. Why can't the ATF be a metaphysical part of the body that is created by a soul, is usually bound to a soul (thus also making it part of the soul), and controlled by the soul, which binds the soul to the flesh?

Because if it isn't connected to the soul then the soul disappears once it leaves the body. It is the wall that keeps souls seperate. Without it the soul is no more unless the will of Gods is inplay.

It is what anchors the soul to the body and makes them a unified whole in the first place -- an individual. Without this glue, the two fall apart and separate.

Yes it is, but that is it's secondary purpose. You can have an ATF without a body just not a body without an ATF.

[Monk Ed]

When Ritsuko destroys the clones, her PDA says "destrudo release". What is that if not something related to the breaking down of ATFs?

[Anonymous_Evafan]

Outside of NGE it is the impulse of self-destruction. Shinji was already tang and he was pumping the stuff out. We have ATFs mentioned in disembodied states and we have 2 people that tanged when their souls left their body. While destrudo does weaken ATFs it is a force we can generate ourselves. In the wonky matter Rei and the Angels are made of it seems to take the impulse to a literal extreme. These conclusions have been reached for good reason, it's not something I'm pulling out of my ass or something. It was around while I was still just a simple lurker. You want to make sense of the series and I applaud you for that desire but Reichu was once very much the same and she has long abandoned the notion. Some things will just never truely make sense.

[AuraTwilight]

Ah ha, here's where we get to the beauty of my theory! What I'm about to explain is, in fact, how the theory got started.

The thing is, the Evas did have an initial soul -- Adam's. Their body came from Adam's body, thus so too did their ATF (because in my theory all flesh = ATF+tang of some variety, clearly not LCL in Adam's case). Their bodies were cloned, not created from tang like when Shinji reconstituted or when Rei was created.

And so by cloning, mankind created a vessel for a soul with the ATF/power of a god.

Yea, except when Adam exploded, he released an AATF and his body EXPLODED, sending his soul somewhere else and obliterating all ATF's in the area, including his own. But chunks of his flesh still held form. EEEH! Wrong.

And where we run into trouble is how Rei starts falling apart in EoE because "her ATF can no longer hold her shape", while at the same time her soulless clones don't tang instantly, implying to me that ATF is required to hold PWM together and thus simultaneously that ATF can exist independently of a soul. Hence I proposed this alternative.

We don't even know for sure if Rei is made of PWM, and if she's not, her clone bodies can probably be sustrained by the LCL they're floating in. If they ARE made of PWM, her psyche can flucuating ATF can be actively rotting her body. Or Rei was fucking with his mind so she can steal his arm for great justice.

If it were something that were constantly generated, then an AATF would itself have to be constantly projected to keep a soul from reforming from tang automatically. And also as we see from Shinji, and as is mentioned in EoE, reconstituting from tang takes an act of will -- a singular act of will rather than a sustained act of will.

It takes a singular act of will to turn on a light, and the light is constantly beamed out from the bulb.

The difference is that you say it has to be connected to a soul at all times or else it goes poof. I say it does not, and I hold the Rei clones as proof.

You can't use the subject of contention in a debate as proof, that's silly. That sort of circular reasoning is how political propaganda and religious dogma gets started.

There doesn't have to be an iron wall between body and soul. Why can't the ATF be a metaphysical part of the body that is created by a soul, is usually bound to a soul (thus also making it part of the soul), and controlled by the soul, which binds the soul to the flesh? It is what anchors the soul to the body and makes them a unified whole in the first place -- an individual. Without this glue, the two fall apart and separate.

Indeed. So ATF's can't exist without a soul.

When Ritsuko destroys the clones, her PDA says "destrudo release". What is that if not something related to the breaking down of ATFs?

LOL MEANINGLESS TECHNO-FREUD BABBLE SIGHTING #376!

[Anonymous_Evafan]

We don't even know for sure if Rei is made of PWM,

We do. She not only generated a barrior type ATF but Gendo stuck his hand in her body.

It takes a singular act of will to turn on a light, and the light is constantly beamed out from the bulb.

Oh I like that one.

LOL MEANINGLESS TECHNO-FREUD BABBLE SIGHTING #376!

LOL NOT MEANINGLESS. It is directly connected with not reembodying in 20 and lets not forget the panic about it in EoE.

[NemZ]

It takes a singular act of will to turn on a light, and the light is constantly beamed out from the bulb.

Unless the power source is removed or otherwise cut off. What is the power source for an ATF again?

Either you're wrong or the analogy doesn't quite work.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

What is the power source for an ATF again?

The soul + libido.

Either you're wrong or the analogy doesn't quite work.

It works fine.

[NemZ]

It works fine.

I thought the theory was that it continues to work even after the soul (power source) is removed... hence, problem with either the theory or the light bulb analogy.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

I don't think that was ever part of what Aura was saying. The point, as I saw it, was you didn't need to like hold a button to keep it on. Overall I do like this theory, a few small issues withstanding. It was very well thought out and I think it has a lot of merit in the LCL based life department and could be a thing of beauty with a bit of tweaking. Adam based life on the other hand... Anno made that a complete mess sadly.

[Monk Ed]

We don't even know for sure if Rei is made of PWM,

I believe there's a shot of a scanner that picks up Rei the same way as it picks up PWM, but don't quote me on that.

and if she's not, her clone bodies can probably be sustrained by the LCL they're floating in.

But they were destroyed with a "destrudo release", a term we see elsewhere implicating ATF breakdown. (More on this later in this post.)

If they ARE made of PWM, her psyche can flucuating ATF can be actively rotting her body.

Gendo's line says her ATF is losing its ability to hold her shape.

Or Rei was fucking with his mind so she can steal his arm for great justice.

That's less convoluted than the idea that ATF energy remains bonded to biomatter even in the absence of a soul? (I know, I know, you were joking.)

The difference is that you say it has to be connected to a soul at all times or else it goes poof. I say it does not, and I hold the Rei clones as proof.

You can't use the subject of contention in a debate as proof, that's silly. That sort of circular reasoning is how political propaganda and religious dogma gets started.

I was speaking in shorthand to Anonymous_Evafan whom I knew would know what I meant. Written out fully, it would go like this: "I hold as proof the Rei clones, which have no soul yet hold their shape, even as Gendo reveals in EoE that Rei's ATF is what holds her shape, implying that these soulless clones still have an ATF holding their shape."

However, you are not Anon, and have different ideas. So I'll also expand the above to include a rebuttal to the suggestion that something other than an ATF was holding the Rei clones together: the consistency of usage of the term, "destrudo".

We first see "destrudo" mentioned when Shinji seems to 'refuse' to be reincarnated by Ritsuko-tachi in ep20. Then we see it again when Ritsuko destroys the clones with a "destrudo release". Then we see it again in EoE when a bridge bunny says "destrudo materializing". When also considering what destrudo means in psychology, it's consistent with all of these if destrudo is (or causes) an ATF self-destruct.

I thought the theory was that it continues to work even after the soul (power source) is removed... hence, problem with either the theory or the light bulb analogy.

Got the wrong guy there. I'm over here. The one with the ATF-energy-remains-bonded-to-biomatter-without-continuous-soul-juice-supply-until-destroyed-by-destrudo-or-AATF hypothesis.

Hm. For clarity, maybe I should have been making a distinction between an AT Field and the energy it's made of (call it AT, I guess?), where a single ATF is a contiguous area of AT. I've been describing both with 'ATF', and maybe that wasn't a good idea.

Calling it by these terms, a severed limb doesn't tang because even though it leaves your ATF, it still has AT in it, and always will contain AT until an AATF nullifies it.

[Zuggy]

That's less convoluted than the idea that ATF energy remains bonded to biomatter even in the absence of a soul?

As long as the geometry of the DNA is there to guide charge pass the speed of light a dismembered limb or empty shell of a body will still maintain electrical cohesion (called, among other things, libido), which in the NGE universe is paramount to physical cohesion as the body is electrified LCL.

[AuraTwilight]

We do. She not only generated a barrior type ATF but Gendo stuck his hand in her body.

Whatever, sure.

LOL NOT MEANINGLESS. It is directly connected with not reembodying in 20 and lets not forget the panic about it in EoE.

MEANINGLESS BUT CONSISTENTLY USED LOL

Unless the power source is removed or otherwise cut off. What is the power source for an ATF again?

Either you're wrong or the analogy doesn't quite work.

Psst. I'm on your side. Can't have light if the lightbulb isn't beaming it.

That's less convoluted than the idea that ATF energy remains bonded to biomatter even in the absence of a soul? (I know, I know, you were joking.)

Why the hell not? Yui warped reality to bite his torso off for great justice.

[NemZ]

I've totally lost track of this argument. Let's just see a showing of hands, eh?

1 - Who believes that a soul is required to maintain an ATF?

2 - Who believes that souls create ATFs but can then leave it on indefinitely?

3 - Who believes something totally different?

4 - Who is willing to just say 'LOLWUT?' and not worry about it at all?

...I vote #1, but I'm leaning heavily towards #4 at this point.

[BobBQ]

I've totally lost track of this argument.

(Inspects label.)

This topic is 80% AEF, AuraTwilight and Yojimbo bitching at each other by volume.

And I am firmly behind Number Four.

[Monk Ed]

I've totally lost track of this argument. Let's just see a showing of hands, eh?

1 - Who believes that a soul is required to maintain an ATF?

2 - Who believes that souls create ATFs but can then leave it on indefinitely?

3 - Who believes something totally different?

4 - Who is willing to just say 'LOLWUT?' and not worry about it at all?

...I vote #1, but I'm leaning heavily towards #4 at this point.

I'm the only #2 far as I know. Seeing all the trouble my heresy has caused, I'm fine with this ending on a #4 consensus so we can all get on with our lives.

It was fun, though. Thank you, all participants.

[Anonymous_Evafan]

I've totally lost track of this argument. Let's just see a showing of hands, eh?

1 - Who believes that a soul is required to maintain an ATF?

2 - Who believes that souls create ATFs but can then leave it on indefinitely?

3 - Who believes something totally different?

4 - Who is willing to just say 'LOLWUT?' and not worry about it at all?

...I vote #1, but I'm leaning heavily towards #4 at this point.

1 and 4.

MEANINGLESS BUT CONSISTENTLY USED LOL

You are familiar with the concept of a plot device right?

[Reichu]

When Ritsuko destroys the clones, her PDA says "destrudo release". What is that if not something related to the breaking down of ATFs?

The clones are an obnoxious case. They seem to be "implanted" with artificial personalities of sorts that probably imitate an A.T. Field in certain ways. One of these would be the endowment of the "self-destructive impulse" that we all have -- and Rei herself certainly has in spades. Hence, when Ritsuko "releases" it -- whatever exactly was suppressing it in the first place -- the clones can all, essentially, destroy themselves. Considering their miserable existences, who can really blame them. (I wonder if the maniacal giggling is intended to convey some kind of twisted pleasure in the act.)

Note that, while Ritsuko does say that she's the one who destroys them, the wording "destrudo release" directly implies self-destruction, so she technically would be assisting suicide.

Also note, with direct relevance to the thread, that the Rei break apart into chunks, rather than LCL... Rei 3 starts degenerating in a similar manner.

Gendo's line about how her ATF can no longer maintain her form is indeed cryptic. I'll forward the possibility that it's not so much because Rei's body actually required an ATF for physical cohesion in the first place, but because something unusual is happening at that time to destroy her physical cohesion. Even in PWM entities, the ATF is responsible for one's "personal image", so it might be trying to counteract the effects of this destructive force, and failing. Hence, it is no longer able to maintain Rei's shape. I realize this explanation is a bit contrived, but I'm not sure what other viable possibilities there are.

You want to make sense of the series and I applaud you for that desire but Reichu was once very much the same and she has long abandoned the notion. Some things will just never truely make sense.

I've abandoned the notion of making sense of everything in formal discussion -- there are definitely a lot of times where you have to draw a line -- but it's still fun to play around with the mythos on the side. At least that way, you can tweak things until they kinda sorta make sense.

[NemZ]

You also have to consider that this is Rei were talking about, so having a bit of her soul in 40+ different places (or times?) doesn't seem entirely out of the question.

Perhaps what is causing her to lose her shape is the effort to limit her now complete soul within the bounds of a puny human form?

[Anonymous_Evafan]

but it's still fun to play around with the mythos on the side. At least that way, you can tweak things until they kinda sorta make sense.

When you can ignore canon when it suits you, amirite?