Questions on Lilith (Motivation, Mind, Soul)

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Questions on Lilith (Motivation, Mind, Soul)

Postby Shay Guy » Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:03 pm

I'm trying to do some research for a fanfic I'm thinking of, and this is something I'm gonna need to clear up - does Lilith have a motivation? Does she have a conscious, thinking mind, not counting Rei's? All I know is that she's the seed of human life as we know it, diametrically opposed to Adam. If she were to pick a side in the war, then, you'd think she'd be on the humans' side...is she? She fuses with Adam easily enough in EoE, and then goes on to initiate 3I, and NERV seems to think that if any of the Angels were to touch her, it'd happen as well (albeit differently). In addition, where does the "soul" end and the "mind" begin in Eva?

There's also - assuming the "Rei I's soul in Unit 00" theory is correct - the question of where exactly that soul was when. Naoko strangles Rei I, at that point it's whole...and then between then and Rei II being pulled out of the Reiquarium, the soul was split? Which parts of it would've been where? Was it just that the emotional parts were in the Eva?
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Re: What does Lilith want?

Postby Zerogoki » Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:35 pm

Shay Guy wrote:between then and Rei II being pulled out of the Reiquarium, the soul was split? Which parts of it would've been where? Was it just that the emotional parts were in the Eva?

Hiya - welcome! ^_^

My personal view was that there were two main parts of Rei that were split away and put into Unit 00:
- Knowledge of being Lilith. The reason for this is because during Rei's introspective conversations it is Rei I who speaks about Rei's 'true nature'; the 'dark heart' that Rei is afraid of.
- Her sense of self-preservation. This is a bit more of a jump, but my reason for saying this is because it is logical that Nerv would want the part inside the Eva to act as close to a mother as possible, and this (IMHO at least) would be her sense of self-preservation. Certainly Rei II doesn't seem to have one herself ( ;) ), and this part of Rei would fight to protect her, comparable to how a mother would.

This is murky territory however, so I'd advise you to take what I say with a pinch of salt, listen to what others have to say, then make up your own mind.

does Lilith have a motivation? Does she have a conscious, thinking mind, not counting Rei's?Does she have a conscious, thinking mind, not counting Rei's? All I know is that she's the seed of human life as we know it, diametrically opposed to Adam. If she were to pick a side in the war, then, you'd think she'd be on the humans' side...is she?

This one is waaaaay beyond me, but she certainly ends up being on Shinji's side, doesn't she? Aside from that...*shrug*
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Postby Reichu » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:48 pm

Lilith is human, so presumably she's as sentient as the next person, albeit with some huge differences due to the fact that she's a 40 meter tall, immortal Seed of Life whose fundamental mission is to carry on the legacy of the First Ancestral Race (or something).

One (entirely theoretical) possibility is that the souls of the Seeds (Lilith and Adam included) came from members of the FAR, i.e., they'd given up mortal lives a la Yui. I find this idea rather interesting myself; maybe you can do something with it.

@Zero: Your comments on Eva-00 are interesting... I'll add that anything unique to the life and personality of Rei 1 would have ended up in there. Plus I wonder if Eva-00's "temper tantrums" and head-bashing say anything especially meaningful.
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Postby evilhead008 » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:47 pm

- Knowledge of being Lilith. The reason for this is because during Rei's introspective conversations it is Rei I who speaks about Rei's 'true nature'; the 'dark heart' that Rei is afraid of.
- Her sense of self-preservation. This is a bit more of a jump, but my reason for saying this is because it is logical that Nerv would want the part inside the Eva to act as close to a mother as possible, and this (IMHO at least) would be her sense of self-preservation. Certainly Rei II doesn't seem to have one herself ( ), and this part of Rei would fight to protect her, comparable to how a mother would.

In the first section where you mention Rei II's soul, do you mean that her "knowledge" of being Lilith is hidden from her, or implanted in her? Rei really doesn't seem to realize who she is until MUCH later in the series. I forget, when does she talk with Rei I?

So in essence, Rei II's soul is Lilith's conciousness and thought processes. She might also have some vague traces and knowledge that she IS Lilith, but that's her sub-conciousness. Once she realizes who she is (In Rei III?) she gets to use all those seed of life powers.

And the soul in Zerogouki is... all of humanity's innate instinct for self-preservation? As the "mother" of humanity, she seems a bit more distant from her children than Adam. (Kaworu's aware of "her" children, and that "she's" a seed of life.) After all, she didn't directly create humans; she created ooze that spawned bacteria that later evolved.
But Rei I definitely knows that she's Lilith, at least in the flashbacks. I don't remember if they come from inside the Eva, but if so, whatever's left inside Unit-00 is definitely aware of what she is. If Rei I was split so part of her doesn't know who she is (in Rei II), then that knowledge seems to be split kind of awkwardly. I'm confusing myself.

From what I typed above, I guess I agree... except that certain elements are carried over into both bits of Lilith's soul.

Reichu: Isn't there a thread over why Rei I wants to die? But going with Zerogoki, then that sense of self-preservation is NOT coming through. Rei I is liek Kaworu in self awareness, but wasn't willing to defend herself. Like Kaworu! Afterwards, her soul was split. I was thinking it may have been like how Kyoko's was split, a "loving," or at least capable of caring for others, in Rei II. The rest, probably the rage and how cruel humans can be, was left in Unit-00. At the least, it would give the Eva an incentive of staying alive.

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Postby Zerogoki » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:14 am

evilhead008 wrote:In the first section where you mention Rei II's soul, do you mean that her "knowledge" of being Lilith is hidden from her, or implanted in her? Rei really doesn't seem to realize who she is until MUCH later in the series. I forget, when does she talk with Rei I?


I'm saying that her knowledge of being Lilith is split away and implanted in Zero. Whether this was done to prevent Rei/-Lilith from causing trouble or going rogue, or for some other reason (plot contrivance?) is unknown, but ultimately the result is that Rei II does not know her true nature, although she is aware to some extent that there is another "me inside the Eva".

It is only when Zero explodes and Rei III comes into being - i.e. when the soul becomes reunited again - that questions about her true nature come about. It is at this point that she encounters Kaworu, and also this point where the introspective conversations start mentioning her 'true' self.

And the soul in Zerogouki is... all of humanity's innate instinct for self-preservation?

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. I thought of it as just her sense of self-preservation - the instinct to protect herself, not humanity. Any wish to protect humanity comes from Rei II, wanting to pilot the Eva and fight the angels to create a "bond with others".

From what I typed above, I guess I agree... except that certain elements are carried over into both bits of Lilith's soul.

Which elements?

going with Zerogoki, then that sense of self-preservation is NOT coming through. Rei I is liek Kaworu in self awareness, but wasn't willing to defend herself. Like Kaworu!

Interesting...as you mentioned, Kaworu/Adam has a similar incident. I guess in terms of the soul-split theory, at this point Rei/Lilith's soul is pretty much intact, so it's possible that one of the other facets of herself has stopped her from defending herself for whatever reason. Maybe pity ("Aww, poor woman is heart-broken. I'll let her kill me so she'll feel better.") or curiosity ("Ooh, she's strangling me. I wonder what she'll do next...") or something else. When the soul is split and the self-preservation instinct is put inside Zero, it is then not hampered by other concerns such as these and so can go about its business of protecting.

Afterwards, her soul was split. I was thinking it may have been like how Kyoko's was split, a "loving," or at least capable of caring for others, in Rei II. The rest, probably the rage and how cruel humans can be, was left in Unit-00. At the least, it would give the Eva an incentive of staying alive.


It's a very possible alternative. Sort of a split between the id and the ego/superego, yes?

Reichu wrote:I'll add that anything unique to the life and personality of Rei 1 would have ended up in there. Plus I wonder if Eva-00's "temper tantrums" and head-bashing say anything especially meaningful.

Works for me! :thumbsup:

Re: the temper tantrums, I haven't quite finished formulating a theory on this yet, but assuming what I've said is correct so far (a big assumption!) I'm guessing that the first contact test went wrong because Zero/Rei I's self-preservation part didn't recognise Rei II as 'self' for whatever reason ("That's not me, I'm in here!"), and instead saw her as a threat and decided to spit her out and start hitting stuff. Unfortunately we have no idea what was happening inside the plug/Rei II's head at the time, so there's no way to be sure. The second time and from then on however, it seems to accept Rei II as part of the 'self'.

[Tangent] This may be due in part to Rei II being calmer in subsequent activations - after the first test Ritsuko mentions the pilot's 'instability' and her becoming 'disturbed', whereas in the second test she takes Gendo's glasses in with her as a charm/confidence booster/whatever. I haven't quite worked it out yet, but achieving successful activation with Zero may be a matter of achieving an understanding between Rei II and Rei I - something like "You're sort-of me and I'm sort-of you and neither of us are going to freak out about it, k?" :ehh: [/tangent]

Similarly, when Shinji goes inside Zero he feels 'something' trying to invade his mind. He freaks out, the 'something' presumably discovers that this person is not Rei II, and promptly starts going nutty.

EDIT: Wow, uber-post. Sorry for the length (and the 'tardness!)
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Postby Shay Guy » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:29 pm

Okay, let's try and timeline this thing.

4 BYA: First Impact. Lilith lands on Earth...zomgwtf, there's already a White Moon? Her Lance/Spear/whatsit (I'm hesitant to take that one bit of EoE as overriding everything else) gets wrecked or something, and she goes ahead and starts spreading life, via LCL or whatever...does she do anything between First and Second Impacts?

2000: Second Impact. Adam goes plooey, half the Lilim/n die...I forget, is it canon that the pilots have to be a certain age or not?

Early 2000s: Some of Lilith's remaining grandkids crack open her Black Moon and discover her. They start building big ol' Adam clones while hanging around in there, and at one point apparently RIP HER FRIGGIN' LEGS OFF to make another one. (Does anyone have screenshots of the Ep23 images mentioned in the Lilith article?)

Rei's birth: A batch of clones is made with genes from one of the Lilimn. Maybe they incorporate some of Lilith's own genes or something...hey, that's my SOUL you're grabbing there! That's...wait, where am I? And when did you all get so big?

Rei I's life: I guess Rei still has her Lilith memories, and for a few years she's brought up in the form of one of her grandkids, kinda-sorta, while her real body's still on a big cross in Terminal Dogma. Dunno about the details.

2010: "'That old hag is annoying. That old hag is no use anymore.'" Lots of speculation needed here...so Rei I dies, and GEHIRN splits Lilith's soul?

More to come...feel free to add.
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Postby Zerogoki » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:52 pm

Shay Guy wrote:does she do anything between First and Second Impacts?

Unknown. Therefore, total fanfic freedom!

is it canon that the pilots have to be a certain age or not?

Unknown. Ritsuko says something like "we have no choice but to entrust our futures to these 14 year olds", but it's not clear if this means that they must be 14, or if it's just because the existing pilots happen to be 14. (It should be remembered that Rei is not in reality 14, so make of that what you will!)

Does anyone have screenshots of the Ep23 images mentioned in the Lilith article?)

Link to large images. Don't embed them.

Courtesy of the EGC.

so Rei I dies, and GEHIRN splits Lilith's soul?

As far as we can tell, yep!

EDIT: Sorry about the image - was half asleep when I posted.
Last edited by Zerogoki on Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby AyrYntake » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:55 pm

Reichu wrote:Plus I wonder if Eva-00's "temper tantrums" and head-bashing say anything especially meaningful.

Obviously you know this already, but the "temper tantrums" are explored in much greater depth in [url]http://evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5056[/url].

As for the Lilith/Adam question, I think Lilith and Adam are caught in what seems to be a love/hate relationship, in which there can never truly be Instrumentality until both reunite. (This is a reference to the myth about Lilith being Adam's first wife until...well, until sex is invented.) For more information read George MacDonald's Lilith. The language is unspeakably archaic, but hey, we could all do with a bit of heavy reading from time to time eh?
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Postby Gamer_2k4 » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:13 pm

Zerogoki wrote:
is it canon that the pilots have to be a certain age or not?
Unknown. Ritsuko says something like "we have no choice but to entrust our futures to these 14 year olds", but it's not clear if this means that they must be 14, or if it's just because the existing pilots happen to be 14. (It should be remembered that Rei is not in reality 14, so make of that what you will!)


I always thought they had to be born after the second impact, and fourteen year olds were the most mature of those people. And doesn't the wiki article on Asuka say that she's 13? So really, it's probably that of the eligible children, they chose the ones that had the best chance of synching with the Evas and would generally be the most competent at piloting. After all, as you mature, your self-awareness and personal identity increase, which, in NGE terms, means you'd have a stronger AT field.
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Postby Ornette » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:15 pm

Seele's version of instrumentality didn't seem to directly involve Adam at all.

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Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:26 pm

I'm trying to do some research for a fanfic I'm thinking of, and this is something I'm gonna need to clear up - does Lilith have a motivation? Does she have a conscious, thinking mind, not counting Rei's? All I know is that she's the seed of human life as we know it, diametrically opposed to Adam. If she were to pick a side in the war, then, you'd think she'd be on the humans' side...is she? She fuses with Adam easily enough in EoE, and then goes on to initiate 3I, and NERV seems to think that if any of the Angels were to touch her, it'd happen as well (albeit differently). In addition, where does the "soul" end and the "mind" begin in Eva?


Since Lilith and Rei are the same being, I would think that they're both the same conscious entity. She probably would side with us, and (if that awesome Duel of the Seeds thing wasn't debunked), she already did. She fuses with Adam because of Rei's own personality, and from that point on, the giant Rei creature isn't exactly Lilith, but a perfect merge of Adam/Lilith, with both minds working in sync.

As for the NERV doomsday scenario, I interpreted that as an Angel fusing with Lilith, gaining her power without Lilith's mind in the way so it can wreck stuff. Soul and Mind seem to be synonymous in EVA, too.

There's also - assuming the "Rei I's soul in Unit 00" theory is correct - the question of where exactly that soul was when. Naoko strangles Rei I, at that point it's whole...and then between then and Rei II being pulled out of the Reiquarium, the soul was split? Which parts of it would've been where? Was it just that the emotional parts were in the Eva?


Rei I dies, half her soul is put in EVA 00, the other half in Rei II. Rei I's half seems to be the half that knew of her identity as Lilith. Without that, Rei II has no clear grasp of self-identity, and thus has problems dealing with emotion and finding much of a reason for living. She literally feels like a doll until Shinji starts messing that up. Both parts of the soul were then probably remerged to make Rei III.

As for the Lilith/Adam question, I think Lilith and Adam are caught in what seems to be a love/hate relationship, in which there can never truly be Instrumentality until both reunite. (This is a reference to the myth about Lilith being Adam's first wife until...well, until sex is invented.)


I don't think that entirely fits. Adam and Lilith, in an NGE context, don't really want to initiate Instrumentality. Infact, it's forbidden. And in a Biblical context, Lilith was kind've a bitch and ran off to go sex up the Devil.
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Postby Shay Guy » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:17 pm

Hmm...

The split. Was that deliberately performed by Gendo, or GEHIRN, or whoever did it? And was the exact scheme of what went where deliberate? Why'd they do it then, and not before Rei I's birth?

There's also the question of the 16th Angel. What exactly happened then? The Director's Cut seems to suggest Rei fused with Unit 00 (presumably putting the soul back together) when it self-destructed...why? What exactly did Rei do to blow it up, anyway? And Rei III, okay...didn't remember the battle, for whatever reason, called herself "the third"...was she in the process of re-absorbing her Lilith part? Was she primarily identifying as "Rei" or "Lilith" at that point? Maybe I should take my DVD set back out...it might be telling that in EoE, Lilith's body changed from her standard form to one much more Rei-shaped.

The Lance of Longinus bit also strikes me as rather peculiar. The two halfs of Lilith's soul, one in a body more-or-less identical to one of her creations/descendants, one stuck in a clone of Adam, collaborate to stick a restraining bolt into her own true body. Does that sound at all weird to anyone else?
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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:41 pm

The split. Was that deliberately performed by Gendo, or GEHIRN, or whoever did it? And was the exact scheme of what went where deliberate? Why'd they do it then, and not before Rei I's birth?


Rei I's birth seemed to be on accident, but I presume that NERV/Gendo/Whoever split the soul for reasons covered up; it's the closest one could get to Rei's mother; the self-preservation aspect of her soul.

There's also the question of the 16th Angel. What exactly happened then? The Director's Cut seems to suggest Rei fused with Unit 00 (presumably putting the soul back together) when it self-destructed...why? What exactly did Rei do to blow it up, anyway? And Rei III, okay...didn't remember the battle, for whatever reason, called herself "the third"...was she in the process of re-absorbing her Lilith part? Was she primarily identifying as "Rei" or "Lilith" at that point? Maybe I should take my DVD set back out...it might be telling that in EoE, Lilith's body changed from her standard form to one much more Rei-shaped.


I don't know if Rei actually fused with Unit 00, part of me thinks that was just symbolism. The fact that Rei's corpse is still more or less intact in the Entry Plug suggests to me that no soul merging went on before-hand, though they might've worked together. Rei can be visibly seen pulling some sort of self destruct, too. As for Rei's "The Third" comment, she seemed to be atleast partially aware of her aspect of clonedom. She was probably just commenting that this was her third "life", and still doubting her identity as more than a doll at that point.

The Lance of Longinus bit also strikes me as rather peculiar. The two halfs of Lilith's soul, one in a body more-or-less identical to one of her creations/descendants, one stuck in a clone of Adam, collaborate to stick a restraining bolt into her own true body. Does that sound at all weird to anyone else?


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Postby AyrYntake » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:51 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:Rei I's birth seemed to be on accident, but I presume that NERV/Gendo/Whoever split the soul for reasons covered up; it's the closest one could get to Rei's mother; the self-preservation aspect of her soul.

Really? I was under the impression that Rei I was created for the purpose of being an Eva pilot.

AuraTwilight wrote:I don't know if Rei actually fused with Unit 00, part of me thinks that was just symbolism. The fact that Rei's corpse is still more or less intact in the Entry Plug suggests to me that no soul merging went on before-hand, though they might've worked together.

I don't think any fusing happened during the self-destruction process, even though the NPC shows EVA-00 transforming into a Rei figure before exploding; that was probably a "Rei I" more than anything else. After all, as above, we do see Rei's body in the entry plug after the self-destruction (see KFR in the Geektionary for more information).

As for the self-destruction, wasn't that a purely mechanical fixture that Rei used (internal explosive, maybe?) compounded with her restraining AT Field? That's what I thought when I saw her flip open that red switch and pull the handle in that episode.
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Postby Shay Guy » Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:49 am

I just realized something. A big part of all this is the question of what Lilith is capable of PERCEIVING. Does she know anything about what's going on after humanity dawns and then spreads across the Earth? Could she even detect Second Impact, or the subsequent drop in fertility rates? Hell, was she aware of ANYTHING that was going on between her landing and Rei I's birth?

That's another thing. Rei I is largely a cipher, and according to the theories we're working with, she's the purest incarnation of Lilith in human form (using "human" in the excluding-Angels-and-Evas sense). I'm sure there's not much you can do with a little girl's body - but does she have the AT field Rei III uses?

As for why Rei was born...I highly doubt it was an "accident." There's a lot going on with her, as we all know - the Dummy Plug, her role in the Instrumentality Project, her function as an Eva pilot, plus all the infrastructure for the clones which I doubt was assembled AFTER the first "happened." Plus her being a clone of Yui, for some weird reason.

Also note that despite being chronologically nine years old, Rei reads German biology textbooks in addition to her Japanese fluency. Does that reflect on Lilith at all? And I still don't get the memory-loss issue, as seen in episode 23. And then there's the fact that understanding LILITH may require a degree of understanding of ADAM, which in turn requires a thorough analysis of Kaworu's actions...urgle...
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Postby AuraTwilight » Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:59 pm

Really? I was under the impression that Rei I was created for the purpose of being an Eva pilot.


It seems to be that Rei I was accidentally created while trying to salvage Yui's soul from EVA 01 after the Contact Experiment, and then decided to make the best of what they got. Besides, there's no shortage of potential pilots, the entirety of Tokyo-3's child population more or less qualifies.

I don't think any fusing happened during the self-destruction process, even though the NPC shows EVA-00 transforming into a Rei figure before exploding; that was probably a "Rei I" more than anything else. After all, as above, we do see Rei's body in the entry plug after the self-destruction (see KFR in the Geektionary for more information).

As for the self-destruction, wasn't that a purely mechanical fixture that Rei used (internal explosive, maybe?) compounded with her restraining AT Field? That's what I thought when I saw her flip open that red switch and pull the handle in that episode.


Exactly.

I just realized something. A big part of all this is the question of what Lilith is capable of PERCEIVING. Does she know anything about what's going on after humanity dawns and then spreads across the Earth? Could she even detect Second Impact, or the subsequent drop in fertility rates? Hell, was she aware of ANYTHING that was going on between her landing and Rei I's birth?


I figure Seeds go to sleep after performing the Prime Directive.

That's another thing. Rei I is largely a cipher, and according to the theories we're working with, she's the purest incarnation of Lilith in human form (using "human" in the excluding-Angels-and-Evas sense). I'm sure there's not much you can do with a little girl's body - but does she have the AT field Rei III uses?


I don't see why she wouldn't have the same AT Field.

As for why Rei was born...I highly doubt it was an "accident." There's a lot going on with her, as we all know - the Dummy Plug, her role in the Instrumentality Project, her function as an Eva pilot, plus all the infrastructure for the clones which I doubt was assembled AFTER the first "happened." Plus her being a clone of Yui, for some weird reason.


All that stuff was created after Rei's birth, which came about as a failed attempt of trying to extract Yui.

Also note that despite being chronologically nine years old, Rei reads German biology textbooks in addition to her Japanese fluency. Does that reflect on Lilith at all?


I don't see why it would, it's not like Lilith knew German.

And I still don't get the memory-loss issue, as seen in episode 23. And then there's the fact that understanding LILITH may require a degree of understanding of ADAM, which in turn requires a thorough analysis of Kaworu's actions...urgle...


The memory loss thing seem pretty simple to me. Put the soul in a new body, "hey, she's gonna freak the f*ck out if she remembers dying", use those backed-up memories from the Dummy Plug and dub them over Rei's mind.

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Postby NemZ » Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:30 pm

first post! wee!

It seems to be that Rei I was accidentally created while trying to salvage Yui's soul from EVA 01 after the Contact Experiment, and then decided to make the best of what they got.


I'm guessing Fuyutsuki wanted to try a last-ditch effort to recover Yui using the salvaged remains and the regenerative properties of Lilith, perhaps using a newly theorized process Gendo just happened to come across in Seele's files? Clearly they didn't know she was a clone or Lilith, hence Gendo's need to keep her away from their prying... boxes.

Besides, there's no shortage of potential pilots, the entirety of Tokyo-3's child population more or less qualifies.


Probably just the ones whose mothers could be convinced to just sit in this cylinder for a sec... uh, for science!

I don't see why she wouldn't have the same AT Field.


I think it's likely that the AT field was only usable due to her proximity to her true body. She can probably remote-start Lilith (and possibly unit 01?) the same way Kwarou does with 02.

All that stuff was created after Rei's birth, which came about as a failed attempt of trying to extract Yui.


...and possibly based upon stolen data from Seele's success in doing likewise with Adam/Kwarou.

I don't see why it would, it's not like Lilith knew German.


Perhaps Rei can comprehend all human languages?

The memory loss thing seem pretty simple to me. Put the soul in a new body, "hey, she's gonna freak the f*ck out if she remembers dying", use those backed-up memories from the Dummy Plug and dub them over Rei's mind.


I would offer that perhaps memories are not synonymous with the soul, but rather compose a third pillar of human existence, and thus would not be transfered with the soul into a new body if the conscious mind became separated from it?

It's also entirely possible that the dummy plug / memory recorder thingamajig wasn't done when Rei 1 expired, thus Rei 2 possesses none of her experiences. Rei 1 then exists solely as a mouthpiece for Lilith during EOTV.

Actually, are we absolutely positive Rei 1 was killed? Just because she went limp and Naoko (in a panic) thought she was dead doesn't mean she necessarily was. Perhaps she was still kicking up until the -real- first contact experiment with unit 00. And on that note... wouldn't you expect it to be a really bad idea to put Lilith's soul in a cloned Adam body? If the Rei 1 = Unit 00 idea is true, why didn't 3I happen about 8 years ago?
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:44 pm

NemZ wrote:It's also entirely possible that the dummy plug / memory recorder thingamajig wasn't done when Rei 1 expired, thus Rei 2 possesses none of her experiences. Rei 1 then exists solely as a mouthpiece for Lilith during EOTV.

No, Rei I was there in EoE when Gendo died.

Actually, are we absolutely positive Rei 1 was killed?

Yes cause there'd be no need for a Rei II if she wasn't.

Just because she went limp and Naoko (in a panic) thought she was dead doesn't mean she necessarily was. Perhaps she was still kicking up until the -real- first contact experiment with unit 00.

That seems rather unnecessary from a story telling viewpoint.

And on that note... wouldn't you expect it to be a really bad idea to put Lilith's soul in a cloned Adam body? If the Rei 1 = Unit 00 idea is true, why didn't 3I happen about 8 years ago?

Colored intel is colored. There is clearly more to it then that or the world would have ended as soon as Rei returned to Lilith with Adam.
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Postby Blackknight1239 » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:05 pm

NemZ wrote:Actually, are we absolutely positive Rei 1 was killed? Just because she went limp and Naoko (in a panic) thought she was dead doesn't mean she necessarily was. Perhaps she was still kicking up until the -real- first contact experiment with unit 00. And on that note... wouldn't you expect it to be a really bad idea to put Lilith's soul in a cloned Adam body? If the Rei 1 = Unit 00 idea is true, why didn't 3I happen about 8 years ago?


I think the fact that there was another Rei (Rei II) should be enough to decide that Rei I died. Wouldn't it be weird for someone lost in a contact experiment (which I would think would be a big deal within NERV) suddenly come back to life to pilot the Eva again? I can't see how many people would know about Rei, as it seems she came the same day she died.

Well, I would assume it would have to be a clone of Adam fusing with Lilith herself. With Rei only having some of Lilith's soul wouldn't create 3I. Otherwise, it would clearly not be Rei I in Zerogoki, and would raise the question who was.
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Postby NemZ » Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:08 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:No, Rei I was there in EoE when Gendo died.


I didn't say anything about EOE... and I don't put it past Gendo to just have a more complex transition guide sequence than most.

Yes cause there'd be no need for a Rei II if she wasn't.


Well yes, obviously she exited the stage eventually, but I mean that it might be possible that she didn't actually die right then and there. It would go a ways towards explaining just how she got into unit 00, followed by either a half-successful retrieval like Kyoko or some form of quantum multi-locational soul juju to explain Rei 2.

That seems rather unnecessary from a story telling viewpoint.


Well, how else would they get Rei 1 into unit 00 then? Can a corpse achieve a 400% sync rate?

There is clearly more to it then that or the world would have ended as soon as Rei returned to Lilith with Adam.


Um... didn't it pretty much do exactly that? "Thanks for the new arm and such. Oh well, I gotta run. Armageddon won't start itself, you know."
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
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