Kaji gunshot vis a vis AWL

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Kaji gunshot vis a vis AWL

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Postby V » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:51 am

http://www.evamonkey.com/gunshot.mov

As I understand it, in Eva fandom this alteration is considered one of AWL's biggest blunders and most offensive to the laws of both God and men.

Explain to me succinctly what was so loony about what they changed.

By all means, I'm not agreeing with AWL, I'm saying I don't know what to think:

they thought the original sounded like a slap so they changed it to a more "gunshot" sound.

Was this just them being too "obvious"?

Educate me why I shouldn't like this and what exactly they "did" here.

(ignore the insane comment that Japanese has no word for "I"...)
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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:58 am

That isn't nearly as bad as what AWL did in EoE in the scene where Misato rescues Shinji (I wonder if they're a link to that around). The noise of the JSSDF guy's brains splattering was awful, and ruined the entire scene.
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Postby Zerogoki » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:11 am

I can't speak for everyone, but certainly the reason I hate that change is because the original sound was (certainly to my mind) obviously supposed to sound like a slap. No-one in their right mind would think that, with all his attention to detail, Anno would allow that sound to remain if it was supposed to sound like a gunshot.

Whether or not you get the artistic reasons for Anno's decision (juxtaposition of the actual shooting with Asuka's reaction to it; namely belting Shinji round the chops!) the reason I hate AWL's decision to change the sound to the gunshot is that it is beyond translating; it is second-guessing Anno's intention, and thus takes something away from the English-speaking audience's viewing experience. Not only that, but it is then made worse by the fact that in the commentary she seems completely unaware of what she did, thus proving her ignorance of the subject matter and showing her to be the completely unsuitable director that we all suspected.

My 2 cents anyway.

EDIT: Ugh! I'd managed to repress the memory of that little edit 'til you brought it up Ursus. The woman is evil I tells ya!
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Postby UrsusArctos » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:17 am

I'm an idiot- of course it was a slap! Asuka slaps Shinji when he tells her that Kaji is dead. The slap works because it makes Asuka's reaction to being told Kaji's dead explicit, while implying that he was shot dead- as well as serving as an audio transition to the next scene.

AWL missed out on this nuance (as she did with so many other things).
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Postby Shin-seiki » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:21 am

UrsusArctos wrote:I'm an idiot- of course it was a slap! Asuka slaps Shinji when he tells her that Kaji is dead. The slap works because it makes Asuka's reaction to being told Kaji's dead explicit, while implying that he was shot dead- as well as serving as an audio transition to the next scene.

AWL missed out on this nuance (as she did with so many other things).
Ursus beat me to it, but yeah, it takes a unique sort of imbecility to not comprehend that that sounded like a slap BECAUSE IT WAS A SLAP. Jeez, what a maroon she is...

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Postby Reichu » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:44 am

Click here for AWL and strip poker! (Actually a relevant thread in the Archives.)
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Postby V » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:12 pm

UrsusArctos wrote:That isn't nearly as bad as what AWL did in EoE in the scene where Misato rescues Shinji (I wonder if they're a link to that around). The noise of the JSSDF guy's brains splattering was awful, and ruined the entire scene.


I actually think that's kind of fun/classic :)

Zerogoki wrote:I can't speak for everyone, but certainly the reason I hate that change is because the original sound was (certainly to my mind) obviously supposed to sound like a slap. No-one in their right mind would think that, with all his attention to detail, Anno would allow that sound to remain if it was supposed to sound like a gunshot.

Whether or not you get the artistic reasons for Anno's decision (juxtaposition of the actual shooting with Asuka's reaction to it; namely belting Shinji round the chops!) the reason I hate AWL's decision to change the sound to the gunshot is that it is beyond translating; it is second-guessing Anno's intention, and thus takes something away from the English-speaking audience's viewing experience. Not only that, but it is then made worse by the fact that in the commentary she seems completely unaware of what she did, thus proving her ignorance of the subject matter and showing her to be the completely unsuitable director that we all suspected.


Okay, I understand that a big point is "the English dub cast shouldn't change non-verbal sound effects because this supercedes their authority" and that view

(consequently, in regard to "hit 'em again" and the 2 F-bombs in EoE....I honestly view these as minor changes just to get the "Feel" of it right, and didn't really detract from anything)

Focusing solely on the "gunslap", (gunshot + slap = "gunslap") ....didn't Asuka's slapping Shinji in disbelief that Kaji is dead....happen in a later episode? And further, in the director's cut?

So if Anno's intention was indeed to punctuate Kaji's death with a "slapping noise"....why is that? I mean the Asuka scene isn't directly following that.


You see (tangent) regarding the "Commentary of Evil", given the hype it has received I was expecting something involving tossing babies over a campfire and annexing Sudetenland.

In reality....well, I think it better than the EPISODE commentaries ADV made, or the "supplementary" material in the Platinum releases with Greenfield et al.

I mean I don't blame them; these people are VA's for an English anime-distribution company; they're not philosophy majors. I can only reasonably expect so much from them. I mean I've seen many a wacky theory by fans themselves online. These people are just "fans" like us, and its as if you took a random sampling of Eva fans from a convention, and put them in charge; some of them might have kind of wacky ideas and not fully grasp it. I mean I don't think these people set out to intentionally infuriate fans, and ADV actually did a better job than Manga Entertainment. I mean considering these show is from *1996*....you remember the quality of dubs from that era? I mean I watched "Ghost in the Shell" the 1st movie in Japanese the first time I saw it when it was shown at a club I went to.....then like years later I saw the English dub which is simply flat and godawful with full "it's a clerk at the dub company reading a translation off a card rather than actually "acting" " effect.

I mean for a mid-90's TV show, I'm always amazed at how good Eva's production quality is by comparison (it still kind of holds up against today's stuff; it doesn't look like "Akira" or "Perfect Blue" or something; it was ahead of the curve in regard to animation style)...and further, I'm amazed that something that early had such a comparatively good dub (translation issues aside).

Anyways, the Commentary of Doom *is* not particularly informative, but I was expecting something offensive literally every scene and such was thankfully not the case. That is...I was expecting them to be spouting off blatantly WRONG theories and observations every 5 minutes, when really they only do that like 4-5 times in the entire thing....granted, WHEN they do its really annoying and had a big effect; i.e. before Web 2.0 the info most casual fans got on the series was from the DVD commentaries, so this led the "Naoko Akagi is the soul of Eva-00" theory to disproportionately popular because the CoD supports it, as they do the "Amalagate Asuka" theory.

Regardless, most of the "Commentary of Doom" is just them talking about the various dub actors and who got shifted around for what scenes.

I mean these people are Voice Actors, running a dubbing company, and they talk about what they know: which happens to be mostly, what Voice Actors did what.

I mean what did you expect?

I got kind of spoiled by the Lord of the Rings commentaries; in which the "cast commentary" is actually very fun AND informative (those guys lived and breathed LOTR for a year and a half and spent vast amounts of time thinking about their roles, so they've usually got something informative to say about what's going on; all of the cast members "grasped" what Tolkien was trying to say, although his messages about war and life were admittedly more practical than the more esoteric views in Evangelion).
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Postby ZapX » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:46 pm

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Postby Zerogoki » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:31 pm

V wrote:Focusing solely on the "gunslap", (gunshot + slap = "gunslap") ....didn't Asuka's slapping Shinji in disbelief that Kaji is dead....happen in a later episode? And further, in the director's cut?

So if Anno's intention was indeed to punctuate Kaji's death with a "slapping noise"....why is that? I mean the Asuka scene isn't directly following that.



As I understand it:
-In the original series Kaji got shot in episode 21, to the sound of a gunshot.
-The scene where Asuka slaps Shinji was not in the original series. It was put into episode 24 for the Directors Cut.
-The two scenes were then put together in D&R, where the sound of the gunshot was replaced with the sound of the slap in order to provide a transition between the two. (Incidentally, the same trick was used in DC 24 for the transition between a slamming door and the slapping scene.)

I mean I don't blame them; these people are VA's for an English anime-distribution company; they're not philosophy majors. I can only reasonably expect so much from them.

As I think was said in the old thread Reichu put up, we don't mind about the VAing so much as the directorial decisions that were made. Sorry to harp on about areas of authority, but regarding this, I'd reasonably expect that if they didn't know much about the philosophy/intention etc, they shouldn't go messing about with it!

I mean I don't think these people set out to intentionally infuriate fans, and ADV actually did a better job than Manga Entertainment.

Hey, you'll get no argument from me that Manga Entertainment are also evil. ;)

I got kind of spoiled by the Lord of the Rings commentaries; in which the "cast commentary" is actually very fun AND informative

An excellent commentary indeed! Here's hoping that if they decide to put a commentary on Rebuild, it'll be more along these lines. (I somehow doubt it though...)
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Postby slothen » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:43 pm

not sure on this, but aren't the sounds of sho's roars different between the dub and the original audio?
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Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:47 pm

Reichu wrote:Click here for AWL and strip poker! (Actually a relevant thread in the Archives.)


But you should still warn people more clearly that there is CANNOT UNSEE material in the thread.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:16 pm

V wrote:(consequently, in regard to "hit 'em again" and the 2 F-bombs in EoE....I honestly view these as minor changes just to get the "Feel" of it right, and didn't really detract from anything)

There was absolutely no reason to make one of the JSSDF guys say "Hit 'em again". That's fan parody dub material, among other decisions AWL made.

In reality....well, I think it better than the EPISODE commentaries ADV made, or the "supplementary" material in the Platinum releases with Greenfield et al.

Considering the CoE has haunted the fan community much more than anything on the Platinum discs......

I mean I don't blame them; these people are VA's for an English anime-distribution company; they're not philosophy majors. I can only reasonably expect so much from them. ... These people are just "fans" like us...

They shouldn't be doing anything that's blatantly out of their realm in the first place. And, "fans like us"? What does being a fan have to do with anything? They were doing a commentary for the honorary localized release without knowing anything about the background of the show or the official materials, and parroting various manner of garbage they'd heard somewhere or other. Contrast this with Carl Horn, who had worked on the localization of the manga and can actually tell you a lot about NGE and its background, or the person responsible for the Evangelion Encyclopedia that came bundled with the Italian release of the show (something that, far as I can tell, reflects a knowledge of official sources).

Regardless, most of the "Commentary of Doom" is just them talking about the various dub actors and who got shifted around for what scenes.

There is a lot of flagrant self-promotion, I seem to recall.

slothen wrote:not sure on this, but aren't the sounds of sho's roars different between the dub and the original audio?

Yeah. Apparently they had to redo them because they were in the vocal track instead of the sound effects track, or something. But they ended up being pretty shitty in that "Rebuild" sort of way.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:11 pm

My main problem with the Slap=Gunshot change is that it seemed to imply that Misato shot Kaji or something. That pissed me off.
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Postby V » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:10 pm

slothen wrote:not sure on this, but aren't the sounds of sho's roars different between the dub and the original audio?


Oh, the guy that plays Aoba explained that; and it was totally beyond their control:

Officially, Evangelion and Angels roars are part of the vocal track, NOT the sound effects track. Thus, when dubbed into ANY new language, you have to redo all of the Eva and Angel noises (they used a creative mix of bizarre human shouts mixed with screaming Camel sounds, played around with using a sound editor)

****its fun, because EVERY language dub of the series has slightly different Evangelion noises, and I enjoy listening to the different versions that get done

Particularly, the Mass Production Evas roar and hiss in the English dub while in the original Japanese, they kind of....make what I call "cat noises". You know when Asuka punches one of them, it kind of goes "Nyyaaooww!" like a disturbed cat (well thats what it sounds like to me)

Yeah but the ADV folks had no control over that, they had to change that just as much as they had to change Shinji's voice to English.

Granted, I have no idea WHY exactly this is - why not just "edit it in" to the English version? But apparently this "they're part of the voice track and we can't mix the two" is a servicable answer (shrug)

Zerogoki wrote:
V wrote:Focusing solely on the "gunslap", (gunshot + slap = "gunslap") ....didn't Asuka's slapping Shinji in disbelief that Kaji is dead....happen in a later episode? And further, in the director's cut?

So if Anno's intention was indeed to punctuate Kaji's death with a "slapping noise"....why is that? I mean the Asuka scene isn't directly following that.



As I understand it:
-In the original series Kaji got shot in episode 21, to the sound of a gunshot.
-The scene where Asuka slaps Shinji was not in the original series. It was put into episode 24 for the Directors Cut.
-The two scenes were then put together in D&R, where the sound of the gunshot was replaced with the sound of the slap in order to provide a transition between the two. (Incidentally, the same trick was used in DC 24 for the transition between a slamming door and the slapping scene.)



Wait a minute....so is the original English dub for just "episode 21" the same as the dub for "Death and Rebirth" which includes the Kaji-getting-shot scene? I would assume the CoD is referring to D&R. For that matter....in the Platinum DVD's, do they still use the gunshot noise, after cutting this scene out and inserting it back into its chronological episode?

So the ORIGINAL Japanese episode had the gunshot, but D&R had it segway into the Shinji and Asuka scene? That makes more sense. BUt of course, it makes it then odd when its cut back into "episode 21", when Asuka doesn't slap Shinji until "episode 24" or so.


In reality....well, I think it better than the EPISODE commentaries ADV made, or the "supplementary" material in the Platinum releases with Greenfield et al.

Considering the CoE has haunted the fan community much more than anything on the Platinum discs......


Yeah, why is that?
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Postby Reichu » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:53 pm

V wrote:Granted, I have no idea WHY exactly this is - why not just "edit it in" to the English version? But apparently this "they're part of the voice track and we can't mix the two" is a servicable answer (shrug)

Not completely. Watch Pokemon, for example; bashable as that dub is, quite a large amount of the original Pokemon voice work is retained, even though they could have just re-recorded all of those "Pikas" and the like.

Yeah, why is that?

Higher entertainment value of the CoE = greater number of individuals who've sat through the whole thing? Something like Mythology of Evangelion... well, that's just plain boring. Who wants to listen to two guys spouting pretentious Freudian (or whatever) nonsense when they can hear off-color remarks about about baby-batter and Maya getting fingered?
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Postby Zerogoki » Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:05 pm

V wrote:Wait a minute....so is the original English dub for just "episode 21" the same as the dub for "Death and Rebirth" which includes the Kaji-getting-shot scene? I would assume the CoD is referring to D&R. For that matter....in the Platinum DVD's, do they still use the gunshot noise, after cutting this scene out and inserting it back into its chronological episode?

So the ORIGINAL Japanese episode had the gunshot, but D&R had it segway into the Shinji and Asuka scene? That makes more sense. BUt of course, it makes it then odd when its cut back into "episode 21", when Asuka doesn't slap Shinji until "episode 24" or so.


As far as I know, the sound is a gunshot in the platinum version of episode 21 too - it is only replaced by a slap in D&R during the segway. (I'm not 100% on that though.)

Yeah, why is that?

I'm not really sure. I'm guessing that a lot of it has to do with AWL herself. I'll admit I only managed to listen to the platinum commentaries for discs 1 and 2, just because they were so pointless, but Greenfield, Spike Spencer et al didn't irritate me half as much as AWL in CoE. She just seems to come out with more completely ignorant nuggets than any of the others. (I find it hard to imagine Spike Spencer saying there's no word for 'I' in Japanese for example.)
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Postby Iron Rooster » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:35 pm

Holy shit, I cannot believe someone thought they had the right to FUCK UP Evangelion. Maybe we should change the sound of us crucifying those assholes from a 'slap' to a 'gunshot'.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:12 pm

How can you "fuck up" something that is by default fucked up? At worst you can only make it more fucked up.
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Postby Reichu » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:42 pm

Different "fucked up"?
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Postby Zerogoki » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:51 pm

'Good' fucked up ---> 'Bad' fucked up?
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