Trinity?

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

Moderator: Board Staff

DoriangRay
Embryo
Posts: 1
Joined: Jun 20, 2008

Trinity?

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby DoriangRay » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:05 am

Inspired by a page on the wiki mentioning the Rei/Yui/Lilith motiff that's about the place, I got thinking of the Trinity in Christianity. Taking the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and turning them on their head, could we get the Mother (Yui), Daughter (Rei) and quasi-godlike entity of unknown but biblical ability (Lilith)?

Support for this might lie in how everything merges together at the end - Rei merges with Lilith (Daughter-Spirit), then joins with Unit 01 (Mother therein - and also derived from Lilith, notably the only Eva that is), thus giving the pilot effectively godlike powers (the three forms of the one God). Additional weight is how the bodies and souls are being passed around: Rei's soul from Lilith and body from Yui, Yui's soul in Unit 01 which is derived from Lilith. Then there's the flashback scene where, when discussing the names of the child, 'if it's a girl, Rei'.

Obviously, Abrahamic motiffs are throughout the whole series, so this could have been intentional - or I may well be grasping at straws and trying to apply ideas where there's merely coincidence.
Me.

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:42 am

This has been an opinion I've held for a while, just because I like the parallel. I don't know if it was intended or not, and I've yet to complete my guide on the relevance of all the religious stuff. If you want even another piece to support it: Rei has to sacrifice herself in the end and in ep. 25 seems to be seriously doubting what she knows she was born to do.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

Zuggy
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 1716
Joined: Jun 18, 2005
Location: UK
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Zuggy » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:54 am

DoriangRay wrote:Taking the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and turning them on their head, could we get the Mother (Yui), Daughter (Rei) and quasi-godlike entity of unknown but biblical ability (Lilith)?

I really don't think so.

Xard
Sex God Bastard
Sex God Bastard
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 14227
Joined: Jan 03, 2008
Location: Finland
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Xard » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:07 am

lol epic fanwank

you're grasping straws I'd say

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 63
Posts: 20496
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:57 pm

Image
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics||MAL
Avatar: Mahou Shoujo Rapture Asuka : "Slice them up with your magical karambit, chu!"

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
User avatar
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:00 pm

Well, Lilith is the real Mother, since she "gave birth" to (almost) everybody, and Yui is sort of a ghost, since she abandoned her original body to live inside a giant green-eyed monster, and she's one of Lilith's "daughters" at the same time, and...
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」

Zerogoki
Tunniel
User avatar
Age: 37
Posts: 162
Joined: Mar 27, 2008
Location: Taffland
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Zerogoki » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:36 pm

Mr Tines wins! :thumbsup:

Evangelion: the story of a father, a son, and a displaced human soul housed in a body grown from an extraterrestrial Seed of Life...
zerogokiru theories make Zerogoki want to hit walls...
#I've got a soul,
But I'm not going to tell you whose...#

"It was originally Happy Magic Virtue Shield." NAveryW on the heap of odd that is the Enchanted Shield of Virtue...
Brikhaus: "I would use Eva-02 (because it's red) to deliver toys to all the good little girls and boys of the world on a single night. That night? September 19th, which is Talk Like a Pirate Day."

slothen
First Ancestral Sloth
First Ancestral Sloth
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 2558
Joined: Sep 12, 2006
Location: Indianapolis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby slothen » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:52 pm

I find it difficult to concisely sum up the effect and intent of the Abrahamic/Christian/whatever imagery. Labeling yui/Rei/lilith as a parallel to the holy trinity seems a bit of a stretch and somewhat vague, but dismissing the imagery entirely as an Anno-visual-gimmick seems even more absurd when you consider the apocalyptic events of the series. Except for the cross-shaped explosions. They are awesome, but I doubt they have any particular significance.
God, Apparently you all have been discussing Q since November. Catching up on the discussion is harrowing.

MAL Profile

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
User avatar
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:19 pm

SACHIEL DYING IN A CROSS-SHAPED EXPLOSION SYMBOLIZES SELF-SACRIFICE. DISCUSS.

@slothen: Christianity IS Abrahamic.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」

slothen
First Ancestral Sloth
First Ancestral Sloth
User avatar
Age: 34
Posts: 2558
Joined: Sep 12, 2006
Location: Indianapolis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby slothen » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:31 pm

of course it is.
God, Apparently you all have been discussing Q since November. Catching up on the discussion is harrowing.

MAL Profile

Incisivis
Scribe
Scribe
User avatar
Posts: 259
Joined: Jan 06, 2005
Location: Canada
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Incisivis » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:28 pm

And then, what about Maiden/Mother/Crone?
"No live organism can continue to exist sanely within conditions of absolute reality; even dragonflies and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream"--Shirley Jackson
I liek Shinji
LiveJournal and Fan Fiction

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:58 pm

slothen wrote:I find it difficult to concisely sum up the effect and intent of the Abrahamic/Christian/whatever imagery. Labeling yui/Rei/lilith as a parallel to the holy trinity seems a bit of a stretch and somewhat vague, but dismissing the imagery entirely as an Anno-visual-gimmick seems even more absurd when you consider the apocalyptic events of the series.
Absolutely. It's much more complex and... I hate say "meaningful", but maybe intent-ful than the "just there to look clue" blurb would suggest. I will EVENTUALLY get it all down in an essay.

slothen wrote:Except for the cross-shaped explosions. They are awesome, but I doubt they have any particular significance.
I'm not sure about the explosions, but the cross itself does. It comes a rather economical context symbol - linking the angels together - and later a symbol for sacrifice, burden, and suffering and a way to link everything that happens in EoE together.

Incisivis wrote:And then, what about Maiden/Mother/Crone?
Asuka/Yui/Lilith... or maybe Misato? lol It's funny how these mythological archetypes seem to come in triplets.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

Zerogoki
Tunniel
User avatar
Age: 37
Posts: 162
Joined: Mar 27, 2008
Location: Taffland
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Zerogoki » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:10 pm

Incisivis wrote:And then, what about Maiden/Mother/Crone?

So that would be Rei, Yui....Baasan? :tongue:
zerogokiru theories make Zerogoki want to hit walls...
#I've got a soul,
But I'm not going to tell you whose...#

"It was originally Happy Magic Virtue Shield." NAveryW on the heap of odd that is the Enchanted Shield of Virtue...
Brikhaus: "I would use Eva-02 (because it's red) to deliver toys to all the good little girls and boys of the world on a single night. That night? September 19th, which is Talk Like a Pirate Day."

iamsynch
Embryo
Posts: 49
Joined: May 11, 2008

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby iamsynch » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:33 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:IMAGE

What is the origins of this piece of art?

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
User avatar
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:38 pm

Picked up from THAT image board, I believe. Most of the stuff that's posted there is done so without any attribution to original source whatsoever (even if the one posting knows the source); and most of the people are just reposting the images that were originally posted without attribution. (Either that, or they never cared where it came from in the first place.) The image in question might have originated from Deviant Art somewhere, but who knows.

On topic, the Trinity stuff is really forcing it, IMO. Yeah, there are thematic triads, lots of them, but nothing that really fits into the Abrahamic God scheme. The actual Trinity symbol does appear during 3I, but even then it would take a lot of fanwanking to make sense of its split-second appearance.

EDIT:

Inspired by a page on the wiki mentioning the Rei/Yui/Lilith motiff that's about the place

Which page? Claiming that there is a triad here seems fallacious; the grouping is incomplete without Eva-01.
Last edited by Reichu on Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:03 pm

Reichu wrote:the Trinity stuff is really forcing it, IMO. Yeah, there are thematic triads, but nothing that really fits into the Abrahamic God thing. The actual Trinity symbol does appear during 3I, but even then it would take a lot of fanwanking to make sense of its split-second appearance.
I actually agree. One thing that makes NGE tricky is that in some respects (the mother theme, for instance) it's a rather rigorous allegory. But in others (the religious symbolism) it plays more like loose allusions. The ironic thing is that the strongest symbolic material is almost always overlooked (at first, anyways) in favor of all the obvious stuff whose meanings are really tenuously linked to the source.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

Sailor Star Dust
Kept you waiting, huh?
Kept you waiting, huh?
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 22964
Joined: Aug 13, 2006
Location: 私の中いる自分の心
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:09 pm

Inspired by a page on the wiki mentioning the Rei/Yui/Lilith motiff that's about the place


Do you mean Lilith/Adam/Yui? And what page on the wiki??
~Take care of yourself, I need you~

AyrYntake
Sahaquiel
Sahaquiel
User avatar
Age: 29
Posts: 615
Joined: Jun 26, 2008
Location: Depends...
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AyrYntake » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:02 am

In the Kabbalistic point of view, Lilith seems not to form so much part of a Trinity as part of the ten Qliphah (singular Qliphoth), which are apparently the unbalanced, "evil" counterparts to the Sephirah in the Tree of Life. Now that in turn was a major part of the symbolism in EoE, seen in the aerial formation of the mass-produced Eva models and Unit 01.
Lilith is also portrayed as predominantly evil in the Kabbalistic view, though, so how much Anno drew from the Kabbalah in this idea I can't really say for sure.
As for the trinity of Father/Son/Holy Spirit, I'd tend to go for Yui(-sama)/Shinji/Rei. Fine, maybe you can't really force the "Father" figure on Yui, but EVA-01 (=Yui-sama) was said to have become God, wasn't it? Hence God the Father, God the Son (Shinji gets crucified in EoE), and God the Holy Spirit (Rei as the "Transition Guides" in 3I)...[/b]
Cirrus, Socrates, particle, decibel, hurricane, dolphin, tulip

devil_eAter
Embryo
Posts: 31
Joined: Jul 03, 2008

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby devil_eAter » Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:53 am

In response to DoriangRay, I had a sililar theory but somewhat different. Yes, it was a Feminine Trinity, but rather Lilith was the Mother (being responsible for life on Earth), Rei is the Daughter (being she made from both Lilith and Yui and sacrafices herself for Shinji and connects to the world by protecting it through the use of Eva, and Yui's spirit has a strong presence in the series though she is dead and hardly appears. Though it is in EVA-01, it also maintains as a spiritual inspirationf for others in the series. That is the way I looked at it. Of coures yours makes as much sense as mine. In the end it shows they all in wone way or another fit the aspects of the Mother-Daughter-Holy Ghost. It is also purely a matter of interpretation. It is not nescessarily what Anno intended, though I would not be surprised if he did intend this.
Fred Phelps sucks....

NemZ
Token Misanthrope
Token Misanthrope
User avatar
Posts: 15804
Joined: Jun 28, 2008
Location: St. Louis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby NemZ » Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:13 am

EVA definately has the trinity concept going, but it constantly subverts it and offers too many possibilities for it to ever really gel into a definitive answer.

For instance, Rei is a trinity all on her own in several completely different ways involving, Rei 1-3, yui, lilith, and both units 00 and 01. It's also tempting to use her with Shinji and Gendo (the names are -perfect- for this), but following the naming motif also leads Shinji and Gendo away into a foursome with Lorenz and Kaji. Shinji and his friends form a trinity of sorts, but so does the Katsuragi 'family', the bridge bunnies, the college buddies, the stooges, the three females who want Shinji to be one with them, the three Horaki daughters, and the three people who are injured by unit 01: Toji, his sister, and Kaworu.

Go ahead, take your pick.
Rest In Peace ~ 1978 - 2017
"I'd consider myself a realist, alright? but in philosophical terms I'm what's called a pessimist. It means I'm bad at parties." - Rust Cohle
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize that half of 'em are stupider than that." - George Carlin
"The internet: It's like a training camp for never amounting to anything." - Oglaf
"I think internet message boards and the like are dangerous." - Anno


Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests