Do You Want to Become One With Me?

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:18 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Shocking events often change ones outlook on things permanently.
His continued obsession with the three being nice to him is on display in Instrumentality, so his temporary feelings didn't change his true feelings. Also what Ornette said.
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Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:37 pm

Ornette wrote:Here, we see a lot of things going on, losing his friends, losing his purpose, trying and failing, a mother that is too distant, etc.

A microcosm of the series.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:His continued obsession with the three being nice to him is on display in Instrumentality, so his temporary feelings didn't change his true feelings.

In the end he realized he was wrong about a great deal. They weren't the monsters he saw them as and they always cared, he just couldn't see it at the time. Before that epiphany he couldn't find any comfort in them (Rei having to call Kaworu out to calm him down). Finally, the most important revelation was the nothingness he thought he wanted wasn't what he wanted at all. He was mistaken from the very start just as Rei had said.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:47 pm

I don't disagree with any of the above, and I'm not entirely sure exactly what we're discussing now, so... yeah.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Ornette » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:18 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:
Ornette wrote:Here, we see a lot of things going on, losing his friends, losing his purpose, trying and failing, a mother that is too distant, etc.

A microcosm of the series.


Wait, are you really saying that these themes have little to do with the series? The same themes that are reflected in the sandbox sequence, which happens right after "what do you wish for"?

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Postby PartyHard » Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:17 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:To go along with what Partyhard said, this is an old but good ANF archived post on the subject, specifically the last paragraph or so:

http://www.evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=118668#118668

Wow, nice thread. Got to check out the rest.

@Ornette
I think Anonymousevafan meant 'the series in a nutshell'?
* Kederaji is now officially offended by the Red Cross.
<FraX> How much blood did they want today?
<Kederaji> Well, you know that questionnaire they ask you before they poke you with the needle?
<FraX> Yeah.
<Kederaji> Well, the guy took a look at me and started marking all the sex related questions as "No".
<Kederaji> Didn't even bother to ask me, just marked them "No."
<Kederaji> The bastard.
<FraX> Was he right?
<Kederaji> He was, but that's not the point!

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:36 pm

A miniature version of what happened in the series crammed into that little sequence. So yeah, the series in a nutshell is accurate.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:and I'm not entirely sure exactly what we're discussing now

I dunno about you but I'm trying to express why I can't see him seeking maternal comfort in P3II. If anything they had him so terrified that he was seeking a replacement for that maternal comfort he'd never get because he thought they were freaks and monsters. After Rei went to such great links for his happiness he saw how wrong he was about them. Before that moment he couldn't find comfort in them.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:01 am

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:I dunno about you but I'm trying to express why I can't see him seeking maternal comfort in P3II. If anything they had him so terrified that he was seeking a replacement for that maternal comfort he'd never get because he thought they were freaks and monsters. After Rei went to such great links for his happiness he saw how wrong he was about them. Before that moment he couldn't find comfort in them.
Ah, ok. I thought that's what you thought but wasn't sure how that last post fit in. I think it depends what we mean by "seeking maternal comfort". Shinji is wishing to return a state of ego-death, to a state of non-existence comfort. And I still say that it's entirely possible he was consciously scared of them all but still unconsciously really wanted love and affection from them. He had finally reached a point where his fear of being hurt and broken him completely, and he wasn't just afraid of these people but terrified. But there was still that part of him seeking love and acceptance from those very people.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:15 am

But he didn't think they could love him because of what he saw them as. Yui, the bloodthirsty monster, Rei, the freak of nature, and Misato, the shameless whore out to sate her own feelings by using him. Until he adressed that he would never be comforted by them no matter how much he wanted to be loved. They simpily couldn't do anything for him at that point, and he knew it.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:07 pm

No, he thought he knew it. I'm trying to think of a way to make my point clear.... It's kinda like how a child could have the absolute worst mother/father ever. Abusive, unloving, hell, they could even be pedophiles. But it's simply ingrained in our egos to want to be loved and accepted by those around us. Shinji may be consciously hurt and scared by all 3 of them. He may be seeking refuge from his thought that he can no longer receive the love from them that he has wished for. But none of this would be effective if it didn't clash with his deepest desires and needs in the first place. It's that division - the deep want to be loved by them and the conscious fear that that's an impossibility - that makes him want to escape reality.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:26 pm

At that point they couldn't help him. The whole of P3II comes off as him looking for a replacement for the maternal warmth he didn't think he could get. He didn't turn to any of them for help and only sought oblivion after Asuka rejected him. That's why I can't see a motherly context to it. He never turned to them during the whole thing. Who was he asking for help through nearly the whole of EoE? Who was it that delivered the final blow that crushed him utterly? They just weren't as important at that moment as they had been in the past because of what had transpired.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:47 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:The whole of P3II comes off as him looking for a replacement for the maternal warmth he didn't think he could get.... That's why I can't see a motherly context to it.
I'm trying to stress his conscious thoughts and his unconscious desire and the conflict between the two. You even state here that he's looking for a replacement for the maternal warmth he thought he couldn't get (from the original). Seeking a replacement is the same as seeking the real thing; it's an analog, a transposition. It's just a conscious rejection of the literal original for a replacement that has the same form and is, essentially, the same thing. But it doesn't change the fact that it was his search for the original, and his continual need of it, and the clash between that desire and his thoughts on his inability to receive it that caused all of this.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:Who was it that delivered the final blow that crushed him utterly? They just weren't as important at that moment as they had been in the past because of what had transpired.
These two statements seem contradictory considering it was Asuka's rejecting his request for help that finally initiated his decision for 3I. Doesn't that stress her importance?
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:27 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:I'm trying to stress his conscious thoughts and his unconscious desire and the conflict between the two. You even state here that he's looking for a replacement for the maternal warmth he thought he couldn't get (from the original). Seeking a replacement is the same as seeking the real thing; it's an analog, a transposition. It's just a conscious rejection of the literal original for a replacement that has the same form and is, essentially, the same thing. But it doesn't change the fact that it was his search for the original, and his continual need of it, and the clash between that desire and his thoughts on his inability to receive it that caused all of this.

That assumes he's looking for the exact same thing from Asuka as he was from Yui, Rei, and Misato. Clearly he wasn't. That's why Misato managed to freak him out so bad. He saw Asuka in a very sexual light, and wanted sexual affection from her. Misato offered him just that twice and it did nothing for him because that isn't the kind of affection he was looking for from her. He was looking for a different source and a different kind of affection in Asuka.

These two statements seem contradictory considering it was Asuka's rejecting his request for help that finally initiated his decision for 3I. Doesn't that stress her importance?

You misread that. They are Yui, Rei, and Misato.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:55 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:That assumes he's looking for the exact same thing from Asuka as he was from Yui, Rei, and Misato. Clearly he wasn't.
Where did I suggest that? There are similar things he's seeking from them collectively (love and acceptance) and certain things he's seeking from them individually.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:That's why Misato managed to freak him out so bad. He saw Asuka in a very sexual light, and wanted sexual affection from her.
The "Shinji wanted Asuka sexually" is a whole other discussion, and I don't think it's nearly as simple as that. I will say, however, that I see it like Shinji is at the precipice of psycho-sexual maturation. His unconscious need for a maternal-like care and acceptance is like a road-block to that "goal". Which is why I see him seeking a similar thing in all the women around him, and it all stems from that maternal need, before he can move on.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:You misread that. They are Yui, Rei, and Misato.
Oh, I got you. You seem to think that Asuka was the final strand connecting him to a desire to exist, and then definitely separating Asuka from Yui, Rei, and Misato. I don't think you can do that so easily. If my theory that he was seeking a similar thing (love and acceptance) from all of them holds, then he simply reached a point where he felt/thought he couldn't get it from Yui, Rei, and Misato, so he turned to Asuka. But I still don't know if you can separate her from them. The "seeking maternal comfort" that I'm referring to is kinda independent from his seeking love and acceptance from all of these people.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sat Jun 07, 2008 10:30 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:The "Shinji wanted Asuka sexually" is a whole other discussion, and I don't think it's nearly as simple as that.

Well the D&R special edition pamphlet says this about Shinji's view of Asuka:
Sohryu Asuka Langley -- Girl. Perplexing. Formidable. Indecipherable. Sex.

Obviously it's more complicated than that but he does seek sexual affection from her.

I will say, however, that I see it like Shinji is at the precipice of psycho-sexual maturation. His unconscious need for a maternal-like care and acceptance is like a road-block to that "goal". Which is why I see him seeking a similar thing in all the women around him, and it all stems from that maternal need, before he can move on.

Not quite. That fear made him look for the sexual replacement for the maternal comfort. He was even ready to give Asuka what she demanded to get it.

Oh, I got you. You seem to think that Asuka was the final strand connecting him to a desire to exist, and then definitely separating Asuka from Yui, Rei, and Misato.

Asuka was the final strand. If there was anyone else he wouldn't have given up. In his darkest hour he turned to her not his mother figures.

I don't think you can do that so easily. If my theory that he was seeking a similar thing (love and acceptance) from all of them holds, then he simply reached a point where he felt/thought he couldn't get it from Yui, Rei, and Misato, so he turned to Asuka. But I still don't know if you can separate her from them. The "seeking maternal comfort" that I'm referring to is kinda independent from his seeking love and acceptance from all of these people.

The "seeking maternal comfort" is the root of the disagreement. You contend that the picture could represent a motherly context. This is something I can't see. He doesn't have a motherly desire for Asuka and he wasn't seeking motherly comfort at that time. He was seeking to replace it with something different. For me it isn't about weather he wanted their love or not, it's about what he was seeking right then. In fact I'm sure he wanted his mother figures to love him. He just wasn't seeking any maternal comfort at this point because he had given up on it.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:22 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:
Sohryu Asuka Langley -- Girl. Perplexing. Formidable. Indecipherable. Sex.

Obviously it's more complicated than that but he does seek sexual affection from her.
Oh good grief, that there does not indicate he sought sexual affection from her. Anything can make you think about sex (especially the opposite sex), but it doesn't necessarily mean you want sexual affection from it/them.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:That fear made him look for the sexual replacement for the maternal comfort.
I'm not entirely against or for that concept. In one respect I agree; sex just becomes another means for gaining acceptance. On the other hand, this coincides with my above statement that the maternal replacement is still a means to fill that same void. And therefor even if it was sex he was hoping to fill it with, he was still looking for the same thing in principle, but merely hoping to fill it with a psychological equivalent.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:In his darkest hour he turned to her not his mother figures.
Yes, but for psychological rather than literal reasons. This is analogous to how Shinji sought what he needed from Kaworu - who was an ideal blank slate for Shinji to use like an outlet. What I'm saying is that in Asuka's case he turned to her not because it was her, specifically, but because he still had that same need and thought he couldn't use the others to fill it. IOW, I don't think he was treating Asuka as individual but as an archetype. Great evidence for this is the fact that he masturbates over her, which I don't think he could've done if he loved or deeply cared for her as an individual.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:He doesn't have a motherly desire for Asuka and he wasn't seeking motherly comfort at that time.
It's not a conscious motherly comfort he's seeking from Asuka but an analogous kind of love and acceptance that he didn't receive from his mother, which left a void, and he's now trying to fill using someone else. So in that sense the breasts work perfect both as a representation of the origin of that need and the evolution of that need that has turned from absolute maternal to sexual, but still stems from the same place and the same need.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:He just wasn't seeking any maternal comfort at this point because he had given up on it.
He was seeking it in another form, which, as far as I'm concerned, is the same as seeking the thing itself.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:14 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Oh good grief, that there does not indicate he sought sexual affection from her.

He certainly didn't want motherly affection from her :tongue: .

I'm not entirely against or for that concept. In one respect I agree; sex just becomes another means for gaining acceptance. On the other hand, this coincides with my above statement that the maternal replacement is still a means to fill that same void. And therefor even if it was sex he was hoping to fill it with, he was still looking for the same thing in principle, but merely hoping to fill it with a psychological equivalent.

Ah so now the disagreement becomes clear. I can't see it as seeking it in another form. He was seeking something completely different in it's place. A forced growing up if you will. It may have been to fill the same void but that doesn't make it the same thing at all.

Yes, but for psychological rather than literal reasons.

It was obviously for both. You don't offer to spend the rest of your life with someone if you don't feel something for them. It may not have been the slightest bit pure but it was there. He even said he believed his feelings were real.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:58 am

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:He was seeking something completely different in it's place. A forced growing up if you will. It may have been to fill the same void but that doesn't make it the same thing at all.
The entire idea is his inability to grow up and take responsibility until that void was filled. So all I see in his view of Asuka as a sexual being is just another way to achieve that. His view of sexuality is incredibly eschew in that manner. I remember saying that the view of love and sex in NGE always ends up being just another form of using others to feel good about yourself. In Shinji it was rooted in the maternal.

Still, I don't see why that particular image couldn't be both. We've established that the void is rooted in the maternal, while his current wish is a way to fill that through sexuality. In that manner, the image acts as a perfect metaphor for both.

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:He even said he believed his feelings were real.
Yeah, but that was after his revelation, and was more of a comment on his new-found worldview.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:12 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:Still, I don't see why that particular image couldn't be both. We've established that the void is rooted in the maternal, while his current wish is a way to fill that through sexuality. In that manner, the image acts as a perfect metaphor for both.

It doesn't for me because he isn't seeking maternal love there but a sexual love in it's stead.

Yeah, but that was after his revelation, and was more of a comment on his new-found worldview.

I want to see them again because I believe my feelings at that time were real is about his world view? :???:
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby sadsadshinji » Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:39 am

I personally feel that Shinji sought the oblivion of ego-death (which is strongly associated with his mother). However, what drives him beyond this is Asuka's rejection of his cries for help and her exposure of his motivations (Anyone will do for you, etc).
As for Shinji wanting sex, he pretty clearly wants Asuka's boobies, but his reaction to Misato's sex scene suggests his immaturity in the matter

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Postby PartyHard » Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:11 am

sadsadshinji wrote:but his reaction to Misato's sex scene suggests his immaturity in the matter

Asuka reacted the same. Shinji sees her as Family and most kids have negative reactions about their parents getting it on- let alone seeing them getting addicted to it for escapism.
* Kederaji is now officially offended by the Red Cross.
<FraX> How much blood did they want today?
<Kederaji> Well, you know that questionnaire they ask you before they poke you with the needle?
<FraX> Yeah.
<Kederaji> Well, the guy took a look at me and started marking all the sex related questions as "No".
<Kederaji> Didn't even bother to ask me, just marked them "No."
<Kederaji> The bastard.
<FraX> Was he right?
<Kederaji> He was, but that's not the point!


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