Do You Want to Become One With Me?

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:08 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:What I would want to see is Shinji's subconcious approaching Misato (in the form of his 4 year old self) and asking her why she didn't love him, what he did wrong, and so forth (with the current Shinji looking on in shock and horror). Too bad Anno didn't think of something like that cause it would have been epic.
This could be representative of Shinji's more introverted self. Misato's subconscious is projecting outward to Shinji while his is all aimed towards inward reflections. Perhaps the nature of his unconscious couldn't reach out, which is why his conscious did for Asuka. Either way it's a bit wonky to think that Misato and Shinji's unconscious would act the same way - we're dealing with very different individuals here.
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Ironfoot » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:57 pm

They are images of Misato, Asuka and Rei in Shinji's mind made manifest within Third Impact, and thus not wholly manifest. Not quite an illusion, but not reality, either. This is Shinji dealing with his daydreams whilst being influenced by 3I to make a decision.

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Postby Ornette » Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:30 pm

OK... I dunno why the conversation got so convoluted. I'll clarify what I meant as best as I can.

The sketch, ok, it's probably Asuka but I don't think this means the answer to "What do you wish for" is "I wish for Asuka's boobs". Even if they were Misato's or Rei's, I don't think it matters that much. What I meant by "what the image represents" as opposed to who's they were, is that the image represents something like, "comfort", for lack of a better word. A comfort of sex? Maybe, although I don't really think so. A comfort of being loved? Probably. A motherly comfort? Maybe. It's probably more than just one thing. Shinji was sick of it all and was at his breaking point. The sandbox sequence explains it, the Misato sequence shows that the comfort he wanted wasn't sex, and the kitchen scene shows him seeking comfort. Of course, this is what I got out of it, and since I also don't believe Shinji and Asuka ever loved one another, but that's not for this thread.

This, in turn, is similar to the "one with me" shots. In a way, they're offering Shinji comfort, whoever this "they" really are.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:49 pm

...But are the three still fronts for Yui during the episode 20 scene?
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:55 pm

Ornette wrote:What I meant by "what the image represents" as opposed to who's they were, is that the image represents something like, "comfort", for lack of a better word. A comfort of sex? Maybe, although I don't really think so. A comfort of being loved? Probably. A motherly comfort? Maybe. It's probably more than just one thing.
Ornette, I'm with you completely here, and this is what I've been trying to explain to AEF who I think it simplifying way to much by making that image just about Asuka and sex.
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:58 pm

My point is he was looking to Asuka for comfort then. I mean he's saying help me Asuka all the freaking time. I didn't see anything that suggests we was looking towards anyone but Asuka at that point.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby Ornette » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:03 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:...But are the three still fronts for Yui during the episode 20 scene?

It probably is, I've never really put a lot of thought into that sequence. IIRC, it was around the time when Ritsuko started doing the salvage. And again, I'm separating the narrative part from the image when I say "comfort". What's actually happening during the "one with me" then "what you wish for" during episode 20 may not have anything to do with anyone actually offering Shinji any comfort, after all, a lot of it seems to be memories and whatever from his own mind. My impression of that in relation to Yui is that she wasn't trying to keep Shinji in the Eva at all, Shinji *wanted* to be there, at first at least.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:12 pm

Ornette: Agreed about Shinji being the one that wanted to be there.

AEF wrote:I didn't see anything that suggests he was looking towards anyone but Asuka at that point.


QFT.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:27 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:I didn't see anything that suggests we was looking towards anyone but Asuka at that point.
He wasn't even looking towards Asuka specifically:

Shinji:
Asuka, help me! You're... you're the only one that can!

Asuka:
Liar... To you, anybody will do! You're afraid of Misato and the First... and of your mother and father, too!


The focus becomes what is Shinji looking for and not who, which is what Asuka is telling him here.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Squirrel Ninja » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:21 pm

I think by the end though, he realizes Asuka is really the one he wants

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:33 pm

I don't find that assertion to be completely true. At the time he is more focused on the comfort than the person giving it but he did have feelings for her, drawing him to her, even if he couldn't acknowledge them at the time. Much like Squirrel Ninja said.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:46 pm

Anonymous_Evafan wrote:but he did have feelings for her, drawing him to her, even if he couldn't acknowledge them at the time.
He had feelings for all of them, so that's really beside the point.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:59 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:He had feelings for all of them, so that's really beside the point.


He might have had feelings for all three of them, but by the time EoE rolls around:

EoE, Episode 25' wrote:Shinji: Ayanami and Misato-san...scare me. Help me. Help me, Asuka.
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Postby Xard » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:31 pm

That doesn't mean anything though. It's just Asuka had not freaked him out completely yet

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Postby Semisubtle » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:48 pm

But even later she didn't COMPLETELY lose it for him, plus she was the only one we know for a fact was physically present on the beach at the end of EoE. That's gotta score some points with him, even if he did try to strangle her.

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:13 pm

Xard wrote:That doesn't mean anything though.


Then why does Shinji say this a few minutes prior to Asuka's yelling at him?

Shinji: I want to be of help to you. I want to stay with you all the time.


The fact Shinji actually says that in Instrumentality--and to Asuka--suggests that Asuka was the only one he was "looking towards".

And granted, while "anybody will do for you" (Kaworu, later Asuka), as Shinji himself later on says, "his feelings were real". Besides, that scene is showing how messed up they are: Shinji with relying on people to help him instead of helping himself first along with not being able to see other people's problems, and Asuka with (self-)projecting her anger onto Shinji. They both make good points on either side, the problem is what the other is saying isn't clicking.

Aand some other stuff I don't have the energy to type at the moment.
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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:34 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:
Shinji: I want to be of help to you. I want to stay with you all the time.


The fact Shinji actually says that in Instrumentality--and to Asuka--suggests that Asuka was the only one he was "looking towards".

And granted, while "anybody will do for you" (Kaworu, later Asuka), as Shinji himself later on says, "his feelings were real".

You do know he only realized that later right? Like I said I don't think she was completely right, but she wasn't completely wrong either. At the time he wasn't focused on the sincerity of his feelings. Half truth is half true.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:51 pm

What I was trying to say in that post is that both of them were at fault about things, yes. They were both making only half-truths about things.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:42 pm

Sailor Star Dust wrote:They were both making only half-truths about things.
And keeping in the tradition of half-truths we can't take they said in P3II at face value. We all know there's more to it than that, and it's more complex than "Shinji just wanted Asuka".
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^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:01 pm

Perhaps a distinction should be made between what he wanted and what he was after.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!


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