Square peg - fitting EoE between ep. 24 & 25

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Square peg - fitting EoE between ep. 24 & 25

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Postby Misato's toyboy » Sat May 17, 2008 9:21 am

Remember Misato's angry admonishment of Shinji almost at the end of TV episode 25? For me it helps with my personal slotting-in of the whole EoE story (& its nightmarish epilogue), between TV episodes 24 & 25.

Shinji the bag of jellied nerves in EoE, is more a nightmare-mental-funk state personified than the angry bitter isolated kid at the end of 24, Shinji in TV eps 25 & 26 is depressed, but more the Shinji we get to know from the TV show.

Interpreting EoE as a purely psychological nightmare/daymare/coma-induced "bad trip" (which has all the emotions Shinji has experienced & learned) which happens to him after 24, leads with no integration or interference to give both stories full recognition & no swap-out details.

The relieved, cured happy-Shinji ending, is I believe the kind of ending Anno originally & still wanted :clap: before the :money: . At the end of EoE, Shinji is ready for the virtual psychiatrist's chair, of course. Placing EoE as a whole before 25, also accommodates the dead-Misato & dead-Ritsuko & Gendou-Rei shots from that episode, as they then appear as flashback/references to EoE's happenings, signified by the shattering floodlights.

...Possibly Angelic Days/Iron Maiden 2 could be seen as the separate, natural sequel i.e. happy-Shinji's reboot of reality. It has all the things he liked & wanted to return to, + the world, including his parents back, together, & Kaji, Kaworu, Toji with 2 legs - but with none of the misery.)

I realise the die-hards, deniers & self-proclaimed experts may baulk at what I've written. :pwnd: Perhaps Rebuild will be a totally better ending. I hope its nearer the TV one.

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Postby Zuggy » Sat May 17, 2008 9:29 am

E.O.E. sucks. It's only useful for complimenting some info. in the TV series. It doesn't help that Manga Entertainment's DVD is so awful either.

Not sure whether I prefer Shinji being miserable or happy like he is at the end of E.O.E./26 respectively - depends what mood I'm in.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat May 17, 2008 10:14 am

Zuggy wrote:E.O.E. sucks.
Personal preferences for the endings aside, EoE definitely does not suck. It's phenomenal if only a visual level. I tend to vastly prefer EoE, simply because it returns to the series' tradition of allegory rather than the stripped exposition of EoTV. Though I also think both are crucial to the series and rather like two sides of a coin.

The concurrency/non concurrency of EoE/EoTV is a long running debate. My thought right now is that 25 begins either some time before EoE or at the very beginning. But from the mid-point of 25 "Instrumentality Begins" on, it's taking part during the Instrumentality we see in EoE. 25 begins with Shinji questioning his killing of Kaworu. EoE begins with Shinji in a completely defeated funk, so the two seem to connect quite nicely there. But to me it seem silly to suggest the whole of EoE takes place before EoTV considering how EoE ends. How did they go from the end of EoE to 25/26?
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Postby NAveryW » Sat May 17, 2008 10:44 am

Zuggy wrote:E.O.E. sucks.
Wait, do you actually feel that way? I've always kind of felt like the series itself is almost just build-up to EoE (not knocking the series, but I consider EoE to have elevated itself past anything that was on the rest of the show).

Oh, and Misato's toyboy: You may want to look at this thread if you haven't yet.
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Postby Zerogoki » Sat May 17, 2008 10:57 am

Hmmm...that 'Instrumentality begins' line really puts paid to the theory that EoE happens immediately before ep.25. Having said that, as EvaYojimbo says it raises that old topic of when ep. 25 does start from.

I have a few thoughts on this, but I have to do a bit more checking before I post them here. Suffice it to say, all in all it doesn't make sense for EoE to occur before the beginning of Ep.25.

Sorry.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat May 17, 2008 10:59 am

NAveryW wrote:I've always kind of felt like the series itself is almost just build-up to EoE (not knocking the series, but I consider EoE to have elevated itself past anything that was on the rest of the show).
Agree completely. The series is good on its own, but I wouldn't hold it as highly as I do without EoE. But I think it's the element that if you haven't really let these characters in to feel the emotional punch that's delivered in EoE then it's easy to divorce yourself from it and then it loses its effectiveness.
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Xard » Sat May 17, 2008 11:48 am

(Don't mind Zuggy, End of Evangelion is awesome flick)

I think you're off since narrative seems to point quite clearly the concurrent nature of events in EoTV and EoE and their relation to each other.

Read MDWigs argument and be enlightened! It is spot on and well formulated "argument for the concurrent nature of episodes 26 and 26". Ep 25's and EoE's first half's correlation isn't even up to debate.

EoE wasn't made for money, duh. You should also remember Air part of the EoE is basically original script for Ep 25. There's no reason to suppose EoE' second half doesn't use original Ep 26 ideas as guideline.


The relieved, cured happy-Shinji ending, is I believe the kind of ending Anno originally & still wanted Omedetou! before the Mo-ney! It's a crime! . At the end of EoE, Shinji is ready for the virtual psychiatrist's chair, of course. Placing EoE as a whole before 25, also accommodates the dead-Misato & dead-Ritsuko & Gendou-Rei shots from that episode, as they then appear as flashback/references to EoE's happenings, signified by the shattering floodlights.


What you mean by "cured"? How Shinji isn't cured in End of Evangelion?

Remember End of TV Series aka EoTV flat out tells you Instrumentality is going on right now. In End of Evangelion Instrumentality is going on right now

There's nothing pointing towards flashback thingies either. Why would show first build towards Third Impact for 24 episodes and THEN SKIP IT without any intention to show it? Remember this was before End of Evangelion was decided to be made

This arguments falls short due the two very simple logical questions. Why would Shinji suddenly change from mentally ravaged EoE-Shinji to "YAY I HAVE VALUE DESU ^_____^" without ANY reason given for it? And besides, all mindfuck sequences of show happen under very weird circumnstances and they're always Instrumentalish by nature. Now when Instrumentality is over for good and forever why Shinji would suddenly enter into same state?


-------------------

As for endings, well, they both are true and ultimately same. The violent and disturbing nature of End of Evangelion sometimes cover the fact movie basically refrained the positive message of EoTV.

EoTV is even more abstract than End of Evangelion in which we see what's happening in the world and some sort of storyline. You see, work has two sides like coin. Other side is story and the flip side is theme. In most works and mostly in NGE too the storyside of the coin is what is at front. In EoTV coin is flipped over and thematic side rushes on like Red Army. Story is nigh-completely forgotten and has been reduced to completely irrelevant.

EoTV is thus more idealized version of the same ending. Ending shows the thematic message of ending as pure and completely removed of real world and its grittyness and imperfections.

When does EoTV in EoE?

Near the absolute end, it should be bloody obvious...

Go watch Omedeto scene.

Then watch Shinji & Rei & Kaworu in LCL Ocean scene and "death" of Lilith. Very last dialogue and Shinji's mologues are mirrored nearly word-to-word (like many other aspects) in this part.

Yui drifts in the space, Shinji has rejected Instrumentality and has decided to return to real world as reborn person. And then story ends in both films. They even end with similar words. "Goodbye my mother" and blackness cue in. In EoTV there's "and to all the children: congrazulations!" which was two things:

A) Reference to Space Runaway Ideon's ending
B) Anno's final "fuck you" at his fellow Japanese and their policies. Anno himself has later literally criticised Japan as country of adult children...

As you can see both versions of the very same set of events ended happily :)

I don't see where you pulled out whole EoE's ending was dark when it told the same message EoTV did. You have to see past the violent and horrifying sequences seen before this happy, if somewhat bittersweet due to Yui's exist, ending :grin:












....what? You say I forgot something? That wasn't ending of End of Evangelion? My my, how attentive for your part :wink:

Note how I didn't say that End of Evangelion's ending and EoTV's endings are same thing. Rather I said both endings are true and coexist.

EoTV's ending and EoE's culmination point scenes are the same thing indeed. But as we know End of Evangelion goes beyond the original ending, in fact End of Evangelion throws in after "goodbye my mother" an epilogue for the story

Epilogue that's of immense importance for its heavyhanded underlining of the shows message.

With all the happyness shown in the very end(s) it is easy to forget one thing - even if you change yourself world doesn't suddenly change, rivers don't start to run with lemonade (or beer), you feel no pain and sun shines forever and ever.

This is part of the second ending. They even directly note it is epilogue/second ending with the placard "One More Final". And it can't refer to movie with "one more" as it isn't even properly ended yet. It is clear indication towards EoTV

Last scene is there to show even with Shinji's changed heart world is how it is, cruel and ravaging place. It is place where you have to struggle to uphold your purpose and joy. But it's not impossible. During the weeks Shinji has spent alone on the beach he has been gone bonkers and he basically didn't even belief he would've seen anyone he cared for ever again.

Yet he decided to struggle on and fight for his own meaning in life. This is even more brutally noted in one of the three sketches for very final ending, the so called "severed arm ending". Read this for more info.

We then see Shinji lying on the beach.
His right hand is holding a white one.
"I'll never see them again."
"It's better to think of it this way."
"I'm still alive, so I'll keep on living."

He squeezes the hand harder.
Then, he sees Rei (like in the actual episode and Last A).
We eventually see that there is nobody lying near Shinji. Just a white arm without the rest of the body.
The camera then shows the full moon.
The ending credits are the same as in Last A.
(that one was rather sick... ^^; )


Point of the One More Final is to show that world is still very nasty and cruel place but it doesn't mean we shouldn't go on and find own chunks of happiness in it. Shinji, who could've ended himself during those few weeks that made him ready for asylum once again, decided to do otherwise and finally Asuka comes back from the sea, showcase of that not all hope is lost.

The very final of Evangelion is bittersweet and a bit sick due to Shinji's mental state. You can and should search for your own happiness and eventually you find glimpses of True Happiness (showcased in final Shinji/Kaworu/Rei scene and that "photo" of cast), just don't except world suddenly stops kicking you into groin because you have changed your heart

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Postby Semisubtle » Sat May 17, 2008 1:00 pm

I fail to see why the chronology actually matters. I always considered EoE to be an alternate, more definitive ending, like they took the concepts from 25 and 26 and gave it background instead of just showing Instrumentality from three different perspectives.

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sat May 17, 2008 5:13 pm

Xard wrote:I don't see where you pulled out whole EoE's ending was dark


Deranged Shinji on the beach is a good starting point.

And do I have to go through this routine again

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-- being the point at which I said to myself "Uh-oh! Now everything's fucked! They aren't going to pull a happy ending out of this one."
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Postby Xard » Sat May 17, 2008 5:22 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:
Xard wrote:I don't see where you pulled out whole EoE's ending was dark


Deranged Shinji on the beach is a good starting point.

And do I have to go through this routine again

Image

-- being the point at which I said to myself "Uh-oh! Now everything's fucked! They aren't going to pull a happy ending out of this one."


*facepalm*

I remember lurking around these parts when you were advocating that view for god knows how long. To put it simply I - like most I guess - disagree. Heavily

We could, of course rekindle that old debate if there was will to do it in another threa :)

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Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Sat May 17, 2008 6:34 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:-- being the point at which I said to myself "Uh-oh! Now everything's fucked! They aren't going to pull a happy ending out of this one."

Yes well 14 days on that beach says it didn't happen. You can't argue with that.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

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Postby sadsadshinji » Sun May 18, 2008 1:24 am

I kind of agree with Xard in that EoE and EoTV are both valid. I was under the impression, however, that they were reflective of different aspects of the same actual events, and EoE was just a bit more dark and realistic (compared with the happy happy ending of EoTV).
As for correlations between the two, I think Xard already outlined them quite well.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sun May 18, 2008 3:05 am

I also agree with Xard and he spelled it out in a detail that too many of us who've been through this too many times don't have the energy for anymore. So, well done. :clap:
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Postby Zerogoki » Sun May 18, 2008 8:27 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:I also agree with Xard and he spelled it out in a detail that too many of us who've been through this too many times don't have the energy for anymore. So, congratulations. :clap:

Fixd.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sun May 18, 2008 8:33 am

I thought the "congrats" part was covered with the smilie.
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Zuggy » Sun May 18, 2008 8:42 am

(Don't mind Xard, you're allowed to have your own opinion on these forums).

What Misato's toyboy says about preferring the happy ending makes me wonder again what #25/#26 would have been like with more money/time the first time around.

sadsadshinji wrote:I was under the impression, however, that they were reflective of different aspects of the same actual events,

Current thought goes, far as I know, that E.O.E. and #26 agree entirely but that #26 ends while Shinji is still in the sea of LCL and E.O.E. chucks the sad bit on the end.

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Postby Zerogoki » Sun May 18, 2008 8:51 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:I thought the "congrats" part was covered with the smilie.


Pah @ subtlety!

Zuggy wrote:What Misato's toyboy says about preferring the happy ending makes me wonder again what #25/#26 would have been like with more money/time the first time around.


Which in turn makes us all wonder what EoWebuild might look like...

I personally can't imagine EoTV being that different with the addition of money/time. It is after all a depiction of the internal goings-on, and in that sense already closely resembles what happened when Shinji was inside the Eva. The only real changes I could imagine are fewer obviously-recycled shots and a bit more colouring in...

EDIT: >_< @ self. What I meant there was if EoTV was redone now. First time round on the other hand (which is what you said - sorry!) it wouldn't have quite so many 'F**k you otakus' in it for a start...
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Postby Shin-seiki » Sun May 18, 2008 9:11 am

Zuggy wrote:Current thought goes, far as I know, that EoE and #25 agree entirely but that #26 ends while Shinji is still in the sea of LCL and chucks the sad bit on the end of EoE
Fixed for comprehension (at least I think that's what you were getting at...)

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Postby Misato's toyboy » Sun May 18, 2008 2:46 pm

Thanks for all your interesting opinions. :boingy:

Got 2 points; where does anything say Shinji was on the beach for a fortnight or longer? Also, the happy TV Shinji might have led to a different ending. Shinji in EoE was in a much worse state, & IMO this affected the ending's outcome.

Taking the cheered-up TV Shinji beyond the end of ep.26, would still have been a different outcome IMO. He might or would still have ended up with Asuka, but I think that his other schoolfriends would have turned up too & even Misato + Kaji. Before that Shinji & Asuka might have had a row, but both being different, they would would have reacted differently, positively to each other...& an actual, more mutual friendship might have begun. :woohoo:

The real big difference between 25 & 26 and 25' & 26' is Shinji's state of mind. Hopefully Rebuild, will have a Shinji III :ting:

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Postby Mr. Tines » Sun May 18, 2008 3:05 pm

Misato's toyboy wrote:Got 2 points; where does anything say Shinji was on the beach for a fortnight or longer?


Like most things in the series, it's implied by visual evidence rather than spoon fed.

For one, the phase of the moon implies 4n+2 weeks have elapsed since the start of the movie. Then there's the rust washed from the nail onto Misato's cross.

http://www.evageeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2270 for more
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