Evangelion VS RahXephon your thoughts.

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Postby Marzan » Tue May 19, 2009 10:47 am

Sailor Star Dust wrote:Sorry if this was already mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread:

So Borodin's Polovetsian Dances was going to be used for the Eva opening according to the Refrain of Evangelion booklet. Did RahXephon end up using the piece in it's series intentionally, or is it just a coincidence?


That would be one hell of a coincidence, don't you think? Too much if you ask me. Borodin isn't exactly Mozart in name recognition.
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Postby Sailor Star Dust » Tue May 19, 2009 1:15 pm

Ornette wrote:Do I have the wrong release or is there another one? SSD, I know that you have the English release, does it say that in there?


What you have is the wrong release, but the English linear notes for THIS CD, Refrain of Evangelion states how Polovetsian Dances was going to be used. (With the CD releases, I know it's somewhat confusing because that other CD (-refrain-The Songs were inspired by Evangelion (just has Yoko Takahashi songs) has a similar name .)

Marzan wrote:That would be one hell of a coincidence, don't you think?


Yes, that's why I'm wondering if RahXephon intentionally used that. The piece itself is pretty popular though, name recognition or not.
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Postby Axell » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:53 pm

so yea, finally finished this...my thoughts on most of the episodes....

it felt like nothing was ever happening, but when something important actually was happening, it made even less sense than when i first watched eva. The difference was this show didnt make me care. They thankfully explained a lot in the last few episodes, but by then i had stopped caring.

The characters felt so one dimensional and boring, and ewwww 12 year difference relationship. And was she his aunt? The old guy calls ayato his grandson so i dont know what to think.

I still have the movie left over and then i'll do some more background searching to fill in the gaps, but yea, didnt like it

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Postby Rabid-Sachiel » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:55 pm

I think Eva is ground braking because it used psychology. Also, it commented about the otaku culture. It also analyzed the loneliness of humanity. It's an extremely complex Anime, and it's not like all those other stupid military Anime's.

In fact, many of the military Anime's are cheap imitations (i.e. RahXephon).
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Postby Dr. Nick » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:51 pm

Rabid-Sachiel wrote:In fact, many of the military Anime's are cheap imitations (i.e. RahXephon).


:headdesk: Saying this should be a temp-bannable offense.

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Postby child of Lilith » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:42 pm

Rahxehon borrowed a lot from Eva but ended up comeing into its own towards the end .

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Postby CyberXIII » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:54 pm

Of course, like most things, there's a flip side to this.

While defending NGE against its detractors is one thing, it's really easy to fall into a different trap: saying its better than certain other popular animebecause they're not as angsty or "deep" as NGE was. (Pick a shonen, any shonen.)

NGE's influence is undeniable, but the problem is that while defending it, we can come off as elitist snobs that sanctimoniously proclaim that any other anime can never be as good, which is clearly untrue.
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Postby honsou » Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:08 am

Dr. Nick wrote:O8th MS Team, X, Stargazer, MS Igloo and 00 season 1 are often considered to be among the better gundums, and original Seed is not particularly bad.


08th and X came out at the same time as Eva (also X had the worst ratings out of any gundam series ever, though its probably one of the better AUs). Igloo is this weird sort of CGI project which had a very limited release and generally considered to be mediocre by UC standards. Finally 00 S1 while not the rape of the franchise that was Seed, was still very bad. And of course SEED almost killed the franchise.

Rabid-Sachiel: For the last time RahXephon is not an Eva rip off, its a modern retelling of the Raideen anime. It has nothing to do with Eva

As for rebuild being a sort of reconstruction
SPOILER: Show
With how 2.0 is I really agree with this statement. The score, the character development, and the battles really gave a vibe of a Super Robot Anime with deeper undertones, instead of a character drama that just happened to have robots which was the TV series.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:43 pm

CyberXIII wrote:while defending it, we can come off as elitist snobs that sanctimoniously proclaim that any other anime can never be as good, which is clearly untrue.
I don't really care what I come off as. I certainly don't believe no other anime can be as good, I've just yet to see one be as good.

honsou wrote:For the last time RahXephon is not an Eva rip off, its a modern retelling of the Raideen anime. It has nothing to do with Eva
Oh, BS. Anyone who can read through the 17 pages of EvaXephon and deny the similarities is just in denial. I know there are some very dubious connections on there and sometimes it's more like "lol, huge anime/mecha archetype alert!" but other times the similarities are so idiosyncratic they can't be denied; a scene where the protagonist falls on top of a girl with his hand on her breast, a train motif, a hand motif, being absorbed into the Angel/Dolem, etc. I don't hate Rah, and I'm sure it probably was inspired by Raideen, but to suggest there's no profoundly strong NGE influence is ridiculous.
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Postby Dr. Nick » Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:52 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:but to suggest there's no profoundly strong NGE influence is ridiculous.


Yes, there are several NGE references in Rah, so saying the latter has "nothing to do with Eva" is just blatantly wrong. But rapid Rah-bashers like that idiot Evaxephon are missing two key points: firstly, like you said, some of the elements the two shows share are older genre tropes (like an enemy that splits into two). And secondly and more importantly, the Eva references are quite minor and superficial in nature, when one compares them to important plot elements that Rah took from Raideen and Megazone 23.

Now, let's not turn this thread into yet another rehash of this topic.

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Postby Merridian » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:05 pm

Dr. Nick wrote: And secondly and more importantly, the Eva references are quite minor and superficial in nature, when one compares them to important plot elements that Rah took from Raideen and Megazone 23.

I think it’s a combination. While most of the visual motifs are largely superficial in relation to RahXephon’s plot, there are still a few key themes that RahXephon blatantly rips in content, presentation, and execution—especially the way RahXephon presents self discovery and acceptance of one’s responsibility. That episode where Ayato gets sucked into a dreamscape where everything was hunky-dory in a fabricated Tokyo is a pretty bad Eva rip off, almost in its entirety.
And that’s where something like Evaxephon fails—it focuses too much on the visual correlation between Evangelion and RahXephon, and what’s worse is that it compares shots that are taken completely out of context with the material. So while there may be scenes structured very similarly to scenes from Eva, the context of the scenes has a tendency to be very different between the shows—that whole breast grope thing is a good example; Ayato falling on whatsername had a much different meaning than when Shinji fell on Rei.

Eva Yojimbo wrote: a train motif

And then there’s stuff like this. The train motif (and the phone motif, since they’re both interrelated motifs in both series) carries the exact same context and meaning in RahXephon as it did in Evangelion. Oh well. Back to the topic...

CyberXIII wrote: it's really easy to fall into a different trap: saying its better than certain other popular animebecause they're not as angsty or "deep" as NGE was. (Pick a shonen, any shonen.)

Well… Evangelion sorta set that trend, and with the exception of something like Texhnolyze (which is so arthouse it isn’t even funny), I haven’t yet seen something that really approaches Eva’s ability to convey so much with so little. The problem is that popular culture wasn’t quite so into the mindfuck moments and the extreme level of psychosis that Anno poured into these characters, so creative depth gets sacrificed for needless angst. These days, angst sells more licenses than hard-edged ontological introspection, and even when you have shows more oriented for psychological and/or philosophical storylines, they have a tendency to lose focus of what they’re doing (Ergo Proxy comes to mind, RahXephon also).

I still think Eva’s inclusion of psychoanalysis and relatively philosophical ideas were a pretty big step for the genre, especially since neither the cinematic approach to presentation nor the scale on which these themes were being presented had been seen in anime before. Eva made extremely dysfunctional character tropes into a cliché of the medium, and it made psychological deconstruction something that was ‘allowed’ for character development. Now it’s hard to find a popular anime series that DOESN’T use these concepts.

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Postby Shinji-kun » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:59 pm

If you don't think Rahxephon copied Eva profoundly, then watch this
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YQpPIkVjFE&feature=related[/url]

Also

[url]http://evaxephon.com/gallery1.html[/url]

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:17 pm

Dr. Nick wrote:But rapid Rah-bashers like that idiot Evaxephon are missing two key points: firstly, like you said, some of the elements the two shows share are older genre tropes (like an enemy that splits into two). And secondly and more importantly, the Eva references are quite minor and superficial in nature, when one compares them to important plot elements that Rah took from Raideen and Megazone 23.
EvaXephon isn't a Rah basher; he said himself he liked both series immensely and just had fun noting the similarities. I don't know how "minor" I'd call the Eva references. Like I said, it's not the "broad" similarities I find distracting but the much more unique and detailed ones; the hand on the breast is the perfect example but there are some more. I'm not concerned that the context/meaning is completely different, it's just the idea of taking something that unique to another show and blatantly stealing it. Though, in truth, I don't even mind that so much anymore since I came to really believe the whole "average artists borrow, great artists steal" quote, and Rah is definitely different enough from Eva not to ruin my enjoyment of it (though I still find it a vastly inferior series).
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Postby Shinji-kun » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:32 pm

Yes there is no real depth to rah

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:34 pm

I wouldn't say that. I said in my review of it that I found its philosophizing much shallower and superficially executed than NGE, yet I loved its rich visual tapestry of visual style and soundtrack. Rah has some GORGEOUS art and designs; in many ways, I find it more superficially visually pleasing than NGE, though NGE certainly has more substance on every level. I think if Rah's characters were more interesting it could've been a comparable masterpiece; it has all the pieces, it simply lacked someone of Anno's talent to put it all together.
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Postby Rabid-Sachiel » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:52 pm

I liked NGE so much; I'd be extremely surprised if I found an Anime of better quality than it.

Also, since Rah was so similar to NGE, I didn't really respect the creators of Rah, because their Anime really WASN'T original, as they copied so many parts of NGE.
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Postby honsou » Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:25 pm

Shinji-kun wrote:If you don't think Rahxephon copied Eva profoundly, then watch this
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YQpPIkVjFE&feature=related[/url]

Also

[url]http://evaxephon.com/gallery1.html[/url]


Yay someone linked to this clip, a perfect example of what i mean. No that is nothing like Eva, because RahXephon has the exact same bow as Raideen...even fires it the same way. Every picture in that gallery is either actually a Raideen reference or a non nonsensical comparison (my personal favorite is comparing the yellow dresses, I mean god damn besides the fact that they are yellow its nothing alike). RahXephon uses sound as a weapon, the Dolem use sound as a weapon, and guess what? Raideen uses sound as a weapon. Both involve Mu, and spirts inside the mecha weirdly guiding the pilot around (though in RahXephon its the girl in the yellow dress instead of a really old guy that's actually in Raideen). Plus i mean god damn Kamina is nothing like Shinji, Kamina is a much more typical robot pilot, more in the style of Amuro Ray or Kamile Bidan. Finally I wouldn't be saying this if the creator of RahXephon didn't specifically say "yes this is a modern retelling of Raideen". So for the last time, watch some fucking Raideen and know what the hell you guys are talking about.

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Postby Monk Ed » Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:39 pm

(only perused the last page)

Over on TVTropes.com, Evangelion is considered a deconstruction of the shounen mecha genre, while RahXephon I believe is the one they refer to as a reconstruction of it that was created almost in response to Evangelion.
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Postby Dr. Nick » Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:06 pm

Merridian wrote:there are still a few key themes that RahXephon blatantly rips in content, presentation, and execution—especially the way RahXephon presents self discovery and acceptance of one’s responsibility.


Can you elaborate this more precisely? Simply saying "the way something presents something" sounds pretty subjective. I could use more actual, solid references for the relevant wiki entry, which I'm planning to update eventually. (Yeah, right.)

That episode where Ayato gets sucked into a dreamscape where everything was hunky-dory in a fabricated Tokyo is a pretty bad Eva rip off, almost in its entirety.


Yes, that is one of the most obvious Eva references in Rah. It's so blatant, in fact, that Super Robot Wars MX combines the two similar scenes, with Vivace swallowing up both Rahxephon and Eva-01. It's as if the makers of the game were saying "we see what you did there" to Rahxephon's writers.

I just don't see why you must use the negatively colored word "rip-off". Shouldn't it be reserved for, I dunno, real rip-offs?

Eva Yojimbo wrote:EvaXephon isn't a Rah basher; he said himself he liked both series immensely and just had fun noting the similarities.


Misrepresenting a show this badly basically counts as bashing, IMO:

EvaXephon wrote:In my opinion, RahXephon is a very entertaining show, but it is a clone of Evangelion, scene-for-scene, word-for-word, character-for-character.


Eva Yojimbo wrote:Like I said, it's not the "broad" similarities I find distracting but the much more unique and detailed ones; the hand on the breast is the perfect example but there are some more. I'm not concerned that the context/meaning is completely different, it's just the idea of taking something that unique to another show and blatantly stealing it.


Firstly, "stealing"? Wouldn't that imply some kind of illegal activity? Secondly, if you find small but distinctive borrowings distracting, do you feel distracted when you're watching Eva and you're aware, for example, that Ireul's AT-field patterns were directly taken from the Andromeda Strain?

honsou wrote:Yay someone linked to this clip, a perfect example of what i mean. No that is nothing like Eva, because RahXephon has the exact same bow as Raideen...


Why can't that scene reference two things at once? See how Dendoh references, like, ten series at once, including Raideen! There's no law against that.

I think this scene is a perfect example of the differences of magnitude I was talking about: Rahxephon's entire design, including its bow, are references to Raideen. That's what I would call a major influnce. Then, we have one scene involving the bow which references Evangelion. That's an isolated, notable but fundamentally minor reference.

honsou wrote:Finally I wouldn't be saying this if the creator of RahXephon didn't specifically say "yes this is a modern retelling of Raideen.


Got a link? The wiki needs it, badly.

Shinji-kun wrote:If you don't think Rahxephon copied Eva profoundly, then watch this
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YQpPIkVjFE&feature=related[/url]

Also

[url]http://evaxephon.com/gallery1.html[/url]


Shinji-kun, I urge you to read this archived thread to see what kind of twisted fanboy logic this Evaxephon fellow is employing. His site, simply put, is not trustworthy.

http://forum.evageeks.org/viewtopic.php?t=3821

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Postby oOoOoOo » Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:48 pm

Wow. It's like some people think Neon Genesis Evangelion was the first piece of art ever created by humankind.

That website, evaxephon.com, is an unwitting satire of over-analyzing pretentious fanboys. Let's look at all the incredible things the shows have in common: Two characters remove their sunglasses! There are angelic wings in both shows! There are ruined cities! There are daring rescues with guns! Both shows have loud heartbeats during close-ups of eyes! Chain-link fences! Both shows use music! Initial attacks on the enemy do not harm them! Robots move on their own unexpectedly! Both shows have elaborate conspiracies! There are neons lights on the ceiling in both shows! Characters are hospitalized after a battle! IN BOTH SHOWS?! Both shows have warrior characters that have (gasp) disturbing flashbacks of battle, almost as if both characters were in battle. In both shows the apocalypse involves everyone becoming one, sort of like every apocalypse ever fucking imagined. The characters in both shows shop for groceries! Characters leave notes when they run away in both shows, effectively plagiarizing human behaviour. Both shows have close-ups of characters yelling. Both shows have power shots of characters looking down on other characters.

It sounds like both of these shows are totally ripping off narrative speculative fiction. Holy fuck, both shows have rising action and a climax. Call the lawyers! This shit has been knocked around for centuries in all manner of artwork and literature. Seriously.

I found RahXephon to be a more fluid, easy-on-the-brain show that (especially while high) created a nice atmosphere, especially with the whole time/space issue. It had a good vibe. Any similarities were genre-based, and can be found in an enormous amount of anime. Both shows had very different focuses. NGE is better than everything, yes, whatever. But RahXephon is not a carbon-copy.

Getting upset about RahXephon is like tearing apart every classic Western novel ever written because it totally rips off Judeo-Christian mythology. No shit! RahXephon no doubt got inspiration from NGE, but NGE definitely lifted entire characters (i.e. Asuka) from other shows, among other things.

Both of these shows are in the same subgenre of a genre. Both reacted and took from what came before. Art is a dialogue between the creators of today and the creators of yesterday.

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