Evangelion VS RahXephon your thoughts.

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Postby Dr. Nick » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:15 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:
Dr. Nick wrote:Can I have too separate entries for "Gendo clone", too?
Does EvaXephon have that?


Yes, on page 5 there's Gendo and Fuyutsuki clones, and again on page 8 there's Gendo clone. Notice how it's a different person each time!

A different framing, and I don't know if it's a motif in the series, but the angsty-angle fits.


It's the bluish blood that really made it an "oh wow" moment.

Let's look at it on a spectrum, with each link representing a peg or percentage of "similarity of context and content"; 1 being the most general and archetypal similarity and 10 being the most detailed and connected similarity.


I've uploaded a little something which I'd like you to assess by applying that sprectrum of yours. It's episode 14 of Gear Fighter Dendoh, and it's a shining example of why I think Rahxephon isn't anything groundbreaking in terms of plastering references all over the place. And no, this show is not entirely non-serious, although this is one of the spoofier episodes.

The episode has shit machine translated Hong Kong subs, but it'll only take 24 minutes of your life.

For instance, the character analogs


You should read that Quiddity's post I quoted, it uses such character analogs to great effect. In any case, Rah's characters obviously aren't just palette-swapped Evangelion characters: notice how even Evaxephon in his character comparisons has to split up and combine them to get desired results. Hell, he's even confused about whether Reika or Quon should be the token Rei-clone.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:
Merridian wrote:Comparisons between series like these are instances were quality is more important than quantity
Well, not necessarily because an accumulation of minor similarities should be taken into account.


Evaxephon lists about 170 separate similarities.

Here's my list of 145 similarities, compiled in one hour, which prove that Gaogaigar is an Evangelion rip-off. It's not a complete list by any means: It's been several years since I watched Gaogaigar, and I'm pretty sure I could also find a scene with an "animation of removing sunglasses" if I rewatched it. That way I'm sure I could ramp that amount up to 180. Also note how I'm avoiding totally low blows, like those "these episodes are the same, period" blanket statements Evaxephon likes to use.

These are in no meaninful order, and there are massive Gaogaigar spoilers ahead, obviously:

SPOILER: Show
1. Abandoned city
2. Fighter planes and missiles
3. A military vehicle explodes
4. Knocked to the ground
5. Close-up on eye
6. Angels and Zonders look similar
7. Enemy that turns up (El-07)
8. Energy beam slices a vehicle
9. Daring rescue (several, often J being the savior)
10. Power-up mode (berserk mode vs Bullet X energy boost, The Power etc.)
11. Enormous flying enemy (several)
12. Music plays important part (anything related to Mic Sounders)
13. Enemy is unharmed by attacks
14. A glimpse of a face (Gaigar's face under Gaogaigar's helmet)
15. According to plan (Mikoto's Zonder seed)
16. Disturbing flasback after battle (Renais)
17. Sphere-shaped wounds (rocket punch holes)
18. Not giant robots (most robots are vessels for advanced AIs)
19. Robot shields someone from debris with hand
20. Enemy latches onto an airplane (several)
21. Cute pet (Hana's dog, Miss Piggy)
22. Rei Clone (Papillon 2 is both an albino and a "clone")
23. Organization's logo displayed on walls
24. Captain and second-in-command
25. Rei Characters comfortable with nudity (Abel is a flasher)
26. Specially built cities (GGG has an artificial island)
27. Smoking habits (Kaji vs Polonaise)
28. Red-head with bad attitude and short temper (Renais)
29. Enemy that sinks things into the ground (El-25)
30. Cataclysmic events in the past (El01's arrival 3 years ago)
31. Motive of revenge (Mikoto's dead parents)
32. Dubious spy character (Kaidou)
33. Enemy with prominent legs (ZX-04, the Leg Primeval)
34. A character is a professor
35. Person inside of enemy (all Zonders)
36. Underground/underwater headquarters
37. Women who want attention directed at their breasts (Swan's slutty outfits)
38. A surprising romantic relationship with a scientist (Gendo and Ritsuko vs Entouji and Papillon)
39. Gestation symbolism (Eggs vs Zonder metal hatcheries)
40. Instrumentalist (Mic Sounders uses music as a weapon)
41. Tears of joy during reunion
42. Blushing kids (Reiko mostly)
43. Sexual dream sequence (naked Miko cheering on Guy)
44. Weirdo teacher at school
45. Throne on a religious symbol (J's seat onboard the J-Ark)
46. Odd eating habits (the AI robots drink oil)
47. Organization name written in capital letters (Gutsy Geoid Guard, GGG)
48. Giant angelic winged enemy in space (Z Master)
49. HUGE humanoid entity whose legs connect to a planet (Z Master)
50. Defeated by a long red weapon (J-Quath)
51. Excitement over new equipment
52. Twin enemy (Israfel vs Sound Robo Alpha and Beta)
53. Another world inside a round hole (El-25)
54. Construction work at the top of the HQ building
55. Forced to hurt a friend (when mind-controlled Guy turns into an enemy)
56. Biomechanical hints (Zonder metal is living metal)
57. Unable to reach robot (Genesic Gaogaigar's component parts are locked away)
58. Disgusting scene with internal organs (Z Master's insides)
59. Ultimate Attack shaped like a religious symbol (Goldion hammer = Thor's Hammer)
60. Creepy old men (Guy's dad)
61. Creepy loli (Abel)
62. The main city gets destroyed (at the midpoint of the series, episode 31)
63. Man creating god (Genesic Gaogaigar, the God of Destruction)
64. Robot's true form revealed in a climactic battle (Genesic Gaogaigar)
65. Robots made from enemies (Kouryu and Anryu)
66. Main scientist is the father of the main character
67. Girl transforms into a giant in the finale
68. End taking place in a strange Earth (Repli-Earth)
69. Characters meeting their true love before dying (Polonaise and Primada)
70. Model city (all of Repli-Earth's cities)
71. Bright light spreading on a planet
72. Final reunion on a beach
73. Alternate version of ending (Grand Glorious Gathering)
74. Show takes place in the early 21st century
75. A character is a gyborg
76. A character wears a visor
77. Launch chute scenes
78. Ridiculously low percentages of success
79. Importance of trains (recurring mecha motif in several Yuusha shows)
80. Ominous chanting (Seele vs the Hell and Heaven chant)
81. Psychedelic backgrounds (purification scenes)
82. Readouts are in English
83. Theme naming (Italian foods)
84. Colors match personalities (the Ryu brothers - feisty red and cool blue)
85. Main character is seriously hurt and hospitalized
86. Real-life footage (real photographs in Mikoto's album)
87. Robot with a barrier (Protect Shade)
88. Unbreakable barrier (Contra Fall)
89. True nature of enemies explained late in the series
90. Heroic sacrifice (several)
91. Computer hacking
92. Person who performs heroic sacrifice does not techically die
93. A character is good at playing a string instrument (Shinji vs Mic Sounders)
94. A flashback takes place near a prominent tree
95. People sprouting wings (Mamoru)
96. Robots sprouting wings (King J-Der)
97. Robot's eyes are dramatically revealed (Eva-02 vs King J-Der)
98. Swapping cores = swapping AI modules
99. Super long-range cannon that takes time to reload (El-16)
100. A robot uses a knife weapon
101. Mecha with a prominent mono-eye (Pinchernone)
102. Enemy is hidden within a cloud (El-09)
103. Whale-like enemy (El-11)
104. Ring-shaped enemy (Armisael vs El-12)
105. Ancient impact event (First Impact vs Choryujin killing off some (all?!) dinosaurs)
104. A robot pushes a massive object falling from the orbit (Sahaquiel vs the space station in FINAL)
105. Enemy with a strong force field is destroyed by using a focused pinpoint attack (Fusion Primeval)
106. Religious references (Abel & Cain, Hell and Heaven, God and Devil, Japanese deities?)
107. Defeating enemy takes well-coordinated teamwork (several battles)
108. Enemy talks about becoming a god (Seele vs Palparepa)
109. Enemies have spherical weak points
110. Non-human enemies that are actually humans
111. A character gets momentarily fat (Asuka's fat suit vs sumo Hana)
112. A character has ninja-like abilities (Kaji vs Volfogg)
113. Enemy takes control of machinery (Ireul vs El-15)
114. Enemy has whip-like arms (El-07)
115. Enemy has impervious skin (Zeruel vs El-17)
116. Enemy is made of micromachines (El-18)
117. Enemy swallows the main character into alternate dimension (El-25)
118. Enemy uses a psychological attack (ZX-06)
119. A disturbing alternate reality (ZX-06's alternate world)
120. Main character is so angsty he can't help his friends (Guy affected by the chemical bolt)
121. Organization has a branch facility in America
122. Antagonists with monoliths (Seele vs Sol Masters)
124. The show references an older robot show (El-14 & Gundam references)
125. Main character's supposedly dead mother is a metahuman
126. Superior foe destroys the heroes' command center
127. Move to a new command center after the old one gets destroyed
128. Metahuman mother has three different avatars (cf. three forms of Rei in EoE)
129. Same enemy agenda (Instrumentality vs Mechanization)
130. Same enemy motives (erasing the weaknesses of human heart ("minus emotions"))
131. Apocalypse (tangification vs visions of mechanization)
132. Everyone on repli-Earth dies, except of two persons
133. They're not technically dead, lol
134. A promise that the dead will return one day (Yui's promise vs the Oath of Courage)
135. Combination characters (combination Asuka vs combo-ryujins)
136. A character leaves Earth to wander space
137. Shinji is often called dickless, Guy literally has no penis because he lost it in a freak shuttle accident
138. American robot is defective
139. Warp missile escape pods resemble entry plugs
140. A celestial body disintegrates (Black Moon vs Pisa Sol's sun form)
141. Well-intentioned plan by aliens causes serious repercussions for Earth
142. Parts of backstory have to be gleaned from additional official materials (Gaogaigar videogames)
143. Flying wing aircrafts (Eva transport planes vs StealthGao)
144. Real-life naval vessels make cameos
145. Enemies have specific energy pattern that can be detected (blood type analysis vs the Z senser)

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Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:12 pm

Dr. Nick wrote:notice how even Evaxephon in his character comparisons has to split up and combine them to get desired results. Hell, he's even confused about whether Reika or Quon should be the token Rei-clone
Splitting seems to give some consistent results in my estimation -- see the first page of this thread for details.
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Postby oOoOoOo » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:39 pm

Mr. Tines wrote:Splitting
This makes sense to me, especially as an artist/writer/creativesque/pothead. All art is part of a long discussion, so taking ideas and splitting them, merging them, etc... it all seems fine to me. After years and years of this kind of cannibalism, we often stumble across fine works of art. Rahxephon may not eclipse Evangelion, but it might influence somebody who will, in ways none of us expect.

Art is wacky like that!

Also: This thread is like a horse-shaped meat-purse with the zipper open. If you know what I mean.
~ O-chan is soooo 2D right now.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:03 am

Dr. Nick wrote:Yes, on page 5 there's Gendo and Fuyutsuki clones, and again on page 8 there's Gendo clone. Notice how it's a different person each time!
Yep, I see; though it should be noted that Rah had a much larger cast than NGE.

Dr. Nick wrote:The episode has shit machine translated Hong Kong subs, but it'll only take 24 minutes of your life.
Will check out. I've got lots on my plate right now.

Dr. Nick wrote:Hell, he's even confused about whether Reika or Quon should be the token Rei-clone.
Quon, obviously; Reika doesn't have an NGE analog that I can discern because her existence in Rah is something that is unique to the series.

Dr. Nick wrote:Here's my list of 145 similarities, compiled in one hour, which prove that Gaogaigar is an Evangelion rip-off.
Mighty impressive (you have WAY too much time on your hands!), but it's obviously a bit difficult to discern how similar these things are (on that spectrum of mine). I will try to go through EvaXephon later and point out some of the more interesting similarities and we'll see if we can all agree on what level of that spectrum they're on. In fact, if I (eventually) get some free time I might just go through all 180 and comment on them and see who agrees.
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
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Postby Conrad Gray » Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:52 am

Rahxephon is essentially NGE with more well-adjusted characters, prettier animation, and Mayan music instead of Kabbalah pop psychology. The ending is a bit lame since there was no epic battle scene and I couldn't really buy the emotional resolution that led to the ending (one gets the impression that Ayato, not being Shinji, doesn't have nearly the amount of angst required for him to have such a crucial part in ending the world). That said, the mecha were alright, and episodes 19 and 23 are pretty emotionally well-done. Also, I like it because it sounds and looks nice and has characters who I don't want to stab in the fucking face.

As for the alleged clone thing Rahxephon does indeed have a lot of influences from NGE, but the creators of the show themselves have admitted that they were trying to make a modern version of Brave Raideen, not Evangelion. So hardcore Eva fans who are trying to say that Rahxephon is an NGE rip-off are barking the wrong tree- if anything, it's a Raideen rip-off. Get your insults right!

That said I don't mind people saying that Rah and NGE have a lot in common. The Lion King may have tenuous connections, not to mention similarities, to Kimba the White Lion, but ultimately it's a rip-off of Hamlet, not Kimba.

Dr. Nick, you missed that the Schwarzer mecha (black Vermillions) in episode 25 are mass-produced evil copies of the main mech (controlled by the evil organization) and are clone-piloted, similar to the dummy plug-piloted mass production mecha in EoE.

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Postby Rabid-Sachiel » Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:25 pm

Conrad Gray wrote:Rahxephon is essentially NGE with more well-adjusted characters, prettier animation, and Mayan music instead of Kabbalah pop psychology. The ending is a bit lame since there was no epic battle scene and I couldn't really buy the emotional resolution that led to the ending (one gets the impression that Ayato, not being Shinji, doesn't have nearly the amount of angst required for him to have such a crucial part in ending the world). That said, the mecha were alright, and episodes 19 and 23 are pretty emotionally well-done. Also, I like it because it sounds and looks nice and has characters who I don't want to stab in the fucking face.


Eva has much better characters, animation, plot, depth; plus it's more bad ass.
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Postby Conrad Gray » Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:32 pm

The animation is more realistic but with with reality comes the gritty ugliness whereas blue is much easier on the eyes. And even if the characters had more depth I still wanted to kill 90% or so of them. NGE exists in a defective world where the medical field of psychopharmacology was cut short by Second Impact.

Plus Rahxephon has the better music.

Both series badassedness are negligible when compared to the awesomeness of Ideon.

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Postby Xard » Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:04 am

Rabid-Sachiel wrote: animation


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Conrad Gray wrote:NGE exists in a defective world where the medical field of psychopharmacology was cut short by Second Impact.


lol medicalisation, last thing I want in mah eva

Conrad Gray wrote:Plus Rahxephon has the better music.


QFMFT

Rah has great music


Conrad Gray wrote:Both series badassedness are negligible when compared to the awesomeness of Ideon.


Be Invoked is some tough shit, but I don't think series itself is so great

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:05 am

Conrad Gray wrote:The Lion King may have tenuous connections... but ultimately it's a rip-off of Hamlet
Lolwut?
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Xard » Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:06 am

Eva Yojimbo wrote:
Conrad Gray wrote:The Lion King may have tenuous connections... but ultimately it's a rip-off of Hamlet
Lolwut?


oh yeah, I forgot that. There's Hamlet elements in TLK but...

Disney presentatives were going about how they were going to make remake of Kimba some years prior to release of Lion King... and then completely forgot about it

and connections are ANYTHING but "tenuous" - they even have same fucking mufasa "clouds/ghosts"

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Postby Conrad Gray » Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:29 am

Eh, I just prefer to ignore the Simba/Kimba connection like how most people choose to ignore the Starcraft/Warhammer 40K connection.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:19 am

Xard wrote:There's Hamlet elements in TLK but...
Well, yeah, the murderous uncle/revenge element, but, seriously, I DO NOT want to imagine an Oedipus Simba...
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
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We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Rabid-Sachiel » Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:15 pm

I disagree. Rah's animation is no match for NGE's hand drawn 90's animation. Hideaki Anno's drawings were brilliant. Besides, I don't think it's better just because it's brighter.
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Postby Xard » Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:36 pm

Rabid-Sachiel wrote:I disagree. Rah's animation is no match for NGE's hand drawn 90's animation. Hideaki Anno's drawings were brilliant. Besides, I don't think it's better just because it's brighter.


Hideaki Anno didn't animate series by hand :facepalm:

Rah's animation is a lot more smoother and polisher

Rah had bigger budget = moar cells

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Postby Rabid-Sachiel » Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:41 pm

Xard wrote:Hideaki Anno didn't animate series by hand

Rah's animation is a lot more smoother and polisher

Rah had bigger budget = moar cells


Yes, he did. Hideaki Anno drew and animated the series. It's hand drawn, cell animation.
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Postby Xard » Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:01 pm

Rabid-Sachiel wrote:Hideaki Anno drew and animated the series.


Image

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:29 pm

In all honesty, if it wasn't for the artsy way in which Anno directed NGE I would VASTLY prefer Rah in all visual aspects. I actually quite prefer Rah on a purely visual aesthetic level; the animation is definitely better and I also prefer the art style more. But Anno's cinematic direction is what will always give NGE the edge. It's not just about the superficial image but how it's used progressively to relate a story, and NGE is a pure masterclass in that arena.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

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Postby Mongoosedog » Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:09 pm

even though Rahxephon had better animation i still prefer Evangelion's, i think the animation works well for it and i prefer the artstyle, it's among my favourite styles that i've seen in anime. i also much prefered the character designs in Eva, even though the characters were mostly Shinji with different hair

I am in no way saying Eva's character design and animation is better, i just prefer it. i would like to say its not just because i like Eva more but i'm not exactly sure if that's true

Rahxephon did have a good story but the ending seemed kind of forced
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Postby Rabid-Sachiel » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:20 pm

Mongoosedog wrote: i still prefer Evangelion's, i think the animation works well for it and i prefer the artstyle, it's among my favourite styles that i've seen in anime. i also much prefered the character designs in Eva, even though the characters were mostly Shinji with different


Same here.

@Xard

I see what you did there.
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Postby Xard » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:24 pm

what did I do there? :think:


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