Replies to some of Jimbo's stuff on page 5. Sorry for the confusing reply-format, but I can't swallow this thread's runaway tail end all at once.
Eva Yojimbo wrote:
UrsusArctos wrote:Evaxephon is junk. Don't fall for it so easily.
Not entirely (see rest of thread).
Off-hand, I'd say the site's about 70-75% crap. Of course, by typical internet standards it is quite factually accurate, but then again, it has an explicit Rahxephon-bashing agenda, which kinda lowers its usefulness as a source of any kind.
Ornette wrote:It's too bad that EvaXephon guy's first thread in ANF got blown to oblivion.
Wait, there was another thread? I probably missed it altogether. Oh, why must Animanation purge all the finest troll threads?
Eva Yojimbo wrote:
Ornette wrote:They were also mostly from mecha anime pre-Eva.
I'm confused... do you mean shots like the bloody hand were also mostly from pre-NGE mecha anime?
Do I know any scenes that feature bloody hands similarly framed? I don't remember seeing any. Scenes where the main character is shocked by the sight of blood and violence? There's plenty.
When the main character of Voltes V learns about his sick, sad family history, he does some serious hand-staring
A good example of an older series featuring some shared gimmick first would be the pyramid-shaped HQ building. I've heard such a building appears in Blue Comet Layzner (1985) and I plan to include it to the wiki once the series is fully subbed and I've watched it.
Eva Yojimbo wrote:
oOoOoOo wrote:I've seen "shot of blood on hands" in plenty of works,
Examples? And, more specifically, any examples of ones that use it as a symbolic motif?
Do you think Rah uses it as a symbolic motif, by the way?
Well, I'll be in a state of skeptical disbelief until someone actually does provide some evidence that some of these more specific things aren't shared exclusively between these two shows.
Can you give me a specific list of those things that you think might be unique to these two shows, so I'll know to keep my eyes open for them? Bloody hand from a similar angle is one. What else?
I mean, could someone provide 17 pages of similarities between NGE and Gundam or any other mecha series even if we did stretch our concept of a similarity?
Using Evaxephon's standards? I dare say that would be laughably easy. In fact, ANF member Quiddity did exactly that. It's not 17 pages long, but all it needs is some elaboration and screencap filler:
Quiddity wrote: Last summer I found this interesting anime. After watching most of the series I was astounded by all the similarities it has to Evangelion...
I think I'll start with the main character. Lets call him 'Bob', although thats not what his actual name is. Bob is a Japanese teenager, just like Shinji. It is stressed early in the series that he has been seperated from his parents often, especially in recent times. In the first episode of the series Bob is in a city under attack by an enemy threat. Intense damage is dealt to the surroundings and there are many casualties. Bob ends up getting into the cockpit of a powerful robot and uses it to save everyone, just like Shinji. Unfortunately for Bob, he essentially finds himself forced into a powerful military organization, just like Shinji was essentially forced into NERV. Being just a teenager, Bob certainly isn't suited to the life of a mecha pilot. He is put under a lot of stress and often times doesn't want to pilot the mech. Sometimes he can't take it anymore and blatantly says he will never pilot the mech again. When he finds the situation that this decision puts his friends in though, he reluctantly returns to his duty. Bob is often in conflict with his superiors, especially a certain male authority figure. Sound familiar? Thats not all.
At one point in the series Bob is put over the edge. He commits treason against the organization much like Shinji did when he threatened to destroy NERV HQ. After this situation is settled, Bob is thrown in a cell, just like Shinji was. Despite that act, he is eventually brought back to good terms with everyone else. Like Shinji, Bob is unconfident in his abilities in the beginning, but slowly gets used to it and realizes he is better than he originally thought. There is a period when this puts him and trouble, and Bob becomes overconfident in his abilities. Luckily, this particular thought soon goes away. Bob has an odd relationship with his father, who happens to be the one that built the mech he pilots, just like Gendou built Unit 01, which Shinji pilots. Their relationship is so bad that his father cares more about the mecha than his own son. There is also a part in the series where Bob is removed as the pilot of the mecha and is replaced with a female pilot (just like when Shinji was replaced with Rei as the pilot of Unit 01). This doesn't work out, and things go back to normal. I'd say that pretty much makes Bob a Shinji ripoff, don't you think?
While the similarities between Bob and Shinji is the biggest thing that made me think this show was an Eva ripoff, there are other things out there as well. For example, in this show the 'good guys' base their survival on 3 mechas, just like in Evangelion. By the end of the series, all 3 of these mechas are rendered useless, just like in Evangelion where Units 00 and 02 were destroyed and Unit 01 drifted off into space. There are multitudes of scenes that just scream out "Eva ripoff!". One of the adversaries wears a mask that looks like its taken right from Keel Lorenz. Late in the series, our hero has a battle with a skull faced enemy that shoots beams out of its mouth. Reminds you of Zeruel, doesn't it? In one scene near the end of the show our hero's mecha is dismembered and decapitated, just like what happened to Unit 02. There's another scene that seems like its taken straight out of the movie. Enemy troopers burst into the headquarters of our heroes and kill many, but their mission ultimately ends up being a failure and they are unable to take the main part of the base. Another part that I can recall being reminded of from the movie is when a suicidial blond attempts to blow up our heroes HQ by sacrificing herself. She fails however, and is killed, just like what happened to Ritsuko in the end.
Alright, I think thats enough. I've cited enough examples to prove just how similar these two animes are. I think its time I reveal just what this anime I've been talking about is.
Mobile Suit Gundam
Yes, that Mobile Suit Gundam. The most famous mecha anime of all time. The Mobile Suit Gundam that just happened to have come out 16 years before Evangelion. I hope this little exercise has shown just how meaningless this 'Evangelion ripoff' discussion is. For a show can hardly be ripped off it isn't original, correct?
I've sometimes entertained the idea of doing something like that with Eva and Gaogaigar, which is often considered to be Eva's polar opposite within the mecha genre. (In fact, I think someone expressed that sentiment earlier in this very thread.) Gaogaigar is a story about a group on non-angsty adults battling an alien menace like the trained professionals they are. The most famous quotation from the series is probably "Victory goes to those with courage!" which sums up the show's attitude really well. Still, it would be easy to make it look like a cheap Evangelion rip-off, like this:
*Religious references: Gaogaigar features important characters named Cain and Abel. The titular mecha's final attack is called Hell and Heaven. Evangelion rip-off.
*Enemies can only be killed by hitting a spherical weak point: Angels can only be killed by destroying the core, which is spherical. Zonders can only be destroyed by removing and purifying the zonder core, which is spherical.
*Non-human enemies are actually humans: Angels are actually humans (revealed at the very end). Zonders are actually humans (revealed in the first episode).
*Main antagonists with monoliths: The members of Seele appear as 12 black monoliths. The Sol Masters stand on top of 11 black cubes.
And it goes on and on and on...
For me, it's not so much the broad similarities or even the specific ones (I think "hand on breast", "mecha swallowed by shadow", "hell train" are more disturbing) but rather the resonances these things gain over the course of the show.
For me, the specific and unique ones are the important ones, since I think of them in terms of how to wikify this info for the fan community. I understand well what you mean by those resonances, though (more about that later).
Plus, I don't think we can discount the initial and intuitive reaction people have to Rah.
True, but the rip-off crowd takes the similar vibe reaction way over the top. Did you see what happened when season 2 of Code Geass came out? There was immediately some idiot here screaming OMG hivemind Eva rip-off oneone!
, even though the "rip-off" in question was, in fact, a variation of the trusty old Jupiter gimmick that's so widely used by Sunrise that it's basically their company trademark (most recently, it was self-consciously used in Soaring Cake Girl).
I haven't seen Raideen, but, even still, I don't think that intuitive connection can be dismissed as false.
Raideen is still being subbed. Old mecha is a super niche genre in the west, after all, even we've started to get proper subs only recently, thanks to pioneering fansub groups like Anime Classic, /m/subs, Shin-Getter and various heroic one-man-groups.
Like I've said, it think it's a fair assumption that Raideen references in Rah are quite different than Evangelion references in Rah. Based on just things I've heard, those Raideen references are quite big, specific and plot relevant, and not as subtle and cinematography-based as the Evangelion refs.