Evangelion VS RahXephon your thoughts.

A forum for discussion of other Gainax works, people belonging or related to Gainax and the non-Eva projects they've worked on, media that reference or have distinct parallels to Eva, etc.

Moderator: Board Staff

mrpanda
Matarael
Matarael
User avatar
Posts: 550
Joined: Jan 13, 2008

Evangelion VS RahXephon your thoughts.

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby mrpanda » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:00 pm

Im currently watchign RahXephon and to be honest so far (im on ep 8) it really is just a mystical Evangelion, even the story seems the same, the battles are also no where near as good. In my opinion its trying to be eva but even more mind fucky and it fails quite badly, i know it will probubly get better but so far im dissapointed.

What do you guys think ?
Jawohl mein Fuhrer. Heil Asuka!
Believe in I who believeth in ye.Strike the heavan by thine drill Simon. - Ye Olde Gurren Lagann.
<Ornette> that's not how parental blocks work
<Ornette> since there is no Optical Pussy Recognition
<Ornette> there's no way a program can know that an image is porn

The Bastard King
Lilin
Lilin
User avatar
Age: 33
Posts: 1236
Joined: Nov 10, 2006
Location: Colby-Sawyer College
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby The Bastard King » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:21 pm

Thoughts, mostly.
16:26 <BastardKing> KICK REASON TO THE CURB
16:26 <Fuyutsuki> BastardKing fires the kick cannon and it EXPLODES IN HIS FACE

master_lloyd
Nerv Employee
Nerv Employee
User avatar
Age: 31
Posts: 1304
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Location: UK
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby master_lloyd » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:45 pm

The parallels in Eva and RahXephon are well tread ground around these parts, but if you actually want my thoughts on the matter here goes:

I found Rah a pretty interesting watch even though initially I was put off by the eva homages, but remember Rah also borrows heavily from other classic anime (see Raideen) aswell.

I thought it was visually engaging with pretty good characters, although the constant screams of "AYATOOOO!" did become somewhat grating after a few episodes (a reference to Akira perhaps?!).

However I do still go in for the whole 'Eva lite' theory other people have about the show.

In short: I liked it. Not as much as Eva tho. Plus non-moving dolems piss me off. Fun but forgettable.

P.s If you think the eva rip-offs are bad now, wait till you see the finale.
Neon Genesis Evangelion (from the Greek Ευανγελιον, meaning "Gigantic robots piloted by mentally ill children")
Eva Facts:
-Gendo's final silenced line to Ritsuko was "I'm going to shoot you now."
-Nagisa Kaworu kills a kitten every time you masturbate.
-Kaji's first and last name was Kaji

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 63
Posts: 21133
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:48 pm

Let's see how long this stays civil...

There's only so many variations you can ring on teen robot pilot vs the Fungi from Pluto, after all.

The equation is usually stated as

Eva : Ideon :: Rah : Raideen

Alternatively you can go to the somewhat ludicrous lengths of EvaXephon.com
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics|🕊|🐸|MAL
Avatar: ROCK!

Ornette
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 47
Posts: 11852
Joined: Dec 26, 2005
Location: Pittsburgh/New York City
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ornette » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:55 pm

I watched it a little after I saw Eva, and aside from a few inconsequential similarities, it didn't remind me of Eva much at all. It was paced awkwardly throughout almost the entire thing. The mysticism it includes rubs off as being a fantasy/mecha mix and reminds me more of something like Escaflowne. Ultimately, I finished the show because I had already invested 8 or so hours into it and by that time I was only half paying attention.

Afterwards, I noticed lots of comparisons being made between the 2. Most of them were completely inconsequential, and not even things I consider homages or references. Some of the things are common amongst many shows, but some people continue to cling to the belief that those things must have come from Eva. And many of those things are simply people looking too hard in an attempt to force a connection between the 2 shows.

Themaninblack
Pilot Candidate
Pilot Candidate
User avatar
Posts: 1769
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
Location: IL

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Themaninblack » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:59 pm

The series are a lot alike. Not as much as I once thoughtm but the Mulians occisionaly rip angels completley off.
I won.

Mr. Tines
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 63
Posts: 21133
Joined: Nov 23, 2004
Location: This sceptered isle.
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Mr. Tines » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:05 pm

I watched after Eva, but before broadband, so had to make do with what was on DVD ... it suffers from slightly wooden story telling and not even supplying all the pieces to fit together for a solution.

Looking at the characters, it felt like there was a lot of matching up of major roles, making TERRA seem a lot like NERV : Next Generation -- the way that Star Trek : Next Gen split the original series roles in two (Kirk -> Picard+Ryker, etc)

Misato -> Elvy+Haruka
Rei -> Quon+Mishima
Asuka -> Meg+Kim
Gendo -> Jin+Shirow
Reminder: Play nicely <<>> My vanity publishing:- NGE|blog|Photos|retro-blog|Fanfics|🕊|🐸|MAL
Avatar: ROCK!

mrpanda
Matarael
Matarael
User avatar
Posts: 550
Joined: Jan 13, 2008

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby mrpanda » Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:53 pm

Yea i do think i compare it to eva to much but then eva is the mecha anime for all other mecha animes to aspire too. On a side not i prefer the Xephon OP to the eva OP.
Jawohl mein Fuhrer. Heil Asuka!
Believe in I who believeth in ye.Strike the heavan by thine drill Simon. - Ye Olde Gurren Lagann.
<Ornette> that's not how parental blocks work
<Ornette> since there is no Optical Pussy Recognition
<Ornette> there's no way a program can know that an image is porn

BrikHaus
Dokutah Tenma
Dokutah Tenma
User avatar
Posts: 6301
Joined: Feb 11, 2006
Location: Attending Physician - AKA: Hell
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BrikHaus » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:02 pm

I've said this in other Rah vs. Eva threads, so I guess I'll say it again here.

I did not like the RahXephon series, however, I think that the movie (a recap/reimagining) was actually quite good.
Awesomely Shitty
-"That purace has more badassu maddafaakas zan supermax spaceland."
-On EMF, as a thread becomes longer, the likelihood that fem-Kaworu will be mentioned increases exponentially.
-the only English language novel actually being developed in parallel to its Japanese version involving a pan-human Soviet in a galactic struggle to survive and to export the communist utopia/revolution to all the down trodden alien class and race- one of the premise being that Khrushchev remains and has abandoned Lysenko stupidity

universalperson
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec 17, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby universalperson » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:46 pm

As I've said before, Ayato is Shinji and Kaworu's bastard love child.

...

Does that mean he's related to Misato? [/badjoke]
Avatar courtesy of RetroRainbow, and the Eva art book.

UrsusArctos
The Beginning and The End
The Beginning and The End
User avatar
Posts: 10164
Joined: Jun 28, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby UrsusArctos » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:00 pm

This ancient, ancient matchup? Oh, my. Rah versus Eva just doesn't die. I wonder what Lord Timaeus or the other ANF-ers would say if they saw this thread?

In any case, Evangelion is vastly superior to RahXephon. And apart from the character similarities that Tines noted (superficial, since Eva characters aren't flat cutouts like Rah's), there isn't much in common between them.

And it really suffers from wooden storytelling and very awkward pacing- much of it doesn't make any sense at all, and there's none of NGE's underlying sense of mystery, or of being part of a much bigger world and a bigger story.
(Was Board Staff from Dec 31, 2007 - Oct 17, 2015 and Oct 20, 2020 - Aug 1, 2021)
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster

Defectron
Tentacle Girl
Tentacle Girl
User avatar
Posts: 5843
Joined: Apr 09, 2005
Location: 5th dimension

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Defectron » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:39 pm

I've said this in other Rah vs. Eva threads, so I guess I'll say it again here.

I did not like the RahXephon series, however, I think that the movie (a recap/reimagining) was actually quite good.


I've also said this in other threads, but my opinion is the exact opposite of Briks here :sachi_blush: :sachi_blush:

Anyway I don't understand how some people can say witha straight face that rahxephon isn't an eva ripoiff. Because it really is in everything from characters, mecha/enemy designs and plots.
Parasite Galaxy: An experimental webcomic

http://www.parasitegalaxy.com/ Updates Monday and Thursday. Vote for me on top webcomics

If you want to support this comic buy something from me on amazon

Themaninblack
Pilot Candidate
Pilot Candidate
User avatar
Posts: 1769
Joined: Nov 19, 2006
Location: IL

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Themaninblack » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:57 pm

The characers and enimes are ripp offs for sure....but beisdes re-tuning reality (A common theme in anime) what did they have in common plot wise. Not much.
I won.

Ornette
Administrator
Administrator
User avatar
Age: 47
Posts: 11852
Joined: Dec 26, 2005
Location: Pittsburgh/New York City
Gender: Male
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Ornette » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:21 am

Defectron wrote:Because it really is in everything from characters, mecha/enemy designs and plots.

RahXephon is straight up a modernized copy of Raideen, down to the way it's piloted, weapons and attacks it uses, and even their names! In Yuusha Raideen, the ancient civilization is even called the Mu (same as in RahXephon). Yuusha Raideen was the first show to include a giant mecha of mystical origins (like RahXephon), Raideen was also sentient (like RahXephon).

Straight from the director's mouth:
Yutaka Izubuchi focus panel at Anime Expo 2006:
RahXephon shares some traits with some of the 70s robot anime. Was that intentional? Were you trying to remake one of those?

You're absolutely right. Basically it's been a long time since Brave Raideen. Since a show like that hasn't existed for a long time, I wanted to do something to bring that type of show back. Normally people in their teens and twenties wouldn't know about Raideen. I just thought people had forgotten about those type of shows, I thought it would be refreshing to it back. Ironically, Tomino, the director of Raideen, is the director of Gundam, which is a completely different type of shows.


Also, apparently in an "Interview with Yutaka Izubuchi" in March NewType 2003, the director says that RahXephon is supposed to be a modern day version of Yuusha Raideen. But I can't find this online except on archive.org but it shows up as garbage:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050409013652/http://www.msigloo.net/special/interview6.html

That's why I think most of the similarities are probably coincidences, or homages to the same thing elements in Eva are homages. e.g. 2 shows, A and B, makes an homage to show C; doesn't mean A is copying B. This is not to say that there aren't similarities between the two, but that the intention wasn't to copy Evangelion at all.

Zuggy
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 1716
Joined: Jun 18, 2005
Location: UK
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Zuggy » Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:28 am

That Dolem that drags thingy into it's Dirac Sea thing then thingy undergoes a psychoanalytical trip while inside the Dirac Sea thing really reminded me of Leliel. I don't much remember what happened.

Brain Powered was supposed to be according to it's director like NGE but better (or something along those lines, I think he said he was sick of people putting up with NGE when he felt he could do it better) - haven't seen Brain Powered yet, though I've heard it's awful.

Evangelion217
Lilith
Posts: 124
Joined: May 26, 2008
Location: New York, New York

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Evangelion217 » Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:13 am

I finished "RahXephon" a month ago. And it was basically "Evangelion" for stupid people. I liked it, but it's simularities to "Eva" was just distracting. It had the train motif, and even a hand motif at one point. The characters were basically carbon copies from the characters in "Evangelion", and some of the dialogue came straight out of "Hedgehog's Dilemma." But the main problem that I had with "RahXephon", was that the protaganist way too powerful. He could kill things in like two, or three hits. It's ridiculouse. When the hero could do something like that, it's hard for me to root for him. "Rah" also has WAY too many characters, that come and go during the entire course of it's narrative. I couldn't even feel bad that Ayato killed his girlfriend in episode 19, because she was only the series for like 5 episodes. And not only that, they take her out for the majority of the show, and then bring her back, and kill her. That's called manipulation, and I did not fall for it. And I know people think "Eva" is a mindfuck, but the ending to "Rah" didn't make any sense. All I know is that it was very up-lifting, but that's all I got from it.

The only defense that "RahXephon" fans have for this series, is that it has better production value then "Evangelion." Yes, an anime that comes out 5 years after another anime, will have better production value. But it doesn't make it a better series, and it still had some very lazy moments with it's animation. The excuse for "Evangelion" is that the budget was cut in half, so the creators had to use what was available to them. If they had more money at that time, then the animation could of been phenomenal in the last two episodes. So what's "RahXephon's" excuse??

P.S: The creator of "Rah" has openly said that he's a fan of "Eva." So "Rah" was basically created by an "Evan" fanboy, with a big budget. I think that explains the simularities. :wink:
The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.

"Komm Susser Todd" is the most up-lifting song about depression"- Evangelion217

It's stange that "Evangelion" became such a hit. All the characters are so sick!- Hideaki Anno

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:23 am

My review of RahXephon:

Entertaining Sci-Fi Anime with Several Glaring Flaws, July 13, 2007


I'm really torn when it comes to RahXephon. See, I did something stupid... I saw Evangelion and fell in love with it. Hungry for something similar, I read the glowing reviews for RahXephon and bought it, hoping for another intelligent, profound series. On my first viewing (too soon after Eva) I hated it. No, I despised it! It blatantly 'borrows' a ton of ideas, themes, scenes, and dialogue from Eva. Those who say it doesn't aren't looking. (A site called EvaXephon has 17 pages worth of these similarities for those interested.) As my Eva-mania cooled down, and I reflected on Rah, I thought perhaps I'd been too harsh. So I recently re-watched it. This time I didn't find the similarities as disturbing. In fact, I actually found myself enjoying this series, especially towards the end. But I still found many flaws that detract from it. First, I will discuss those flaws, but end on a high note with what this series does right.

FLAWS:

Rah's biggest flaw is its poor execution of PRaT (Pace, Rhythm, and Timing). This series jumps and jerks around with wild shifts in pace, little rhythm to its edits and narrative flow, and a lack of timing in execution. Ep. 11 is a good example: The viewer is thrust immediately into a fight between the Xephon and a Dolem with no explanation of how this came about. The Dolem "swallows" Xephon, sending the hero, Kamina Ayato into an alternate dimension-like state. This is one episode borrowed from Eva, but the real problem is lack of setup. To believe in the altered state that is happening to the hero, we have to have a setup and a flow of events. Another example is the train sequence in the final episode. Again, this idea is ripped from Eva... but this scene makes no sense in regards to the rhythm of Rah's narrative and sticks out like a sore thumb.

I'm extremely sensitive to PRAT when it comes to art (long series especially). Series that flow logically have more impact and make it easier to get involved. Rah's lack of good PRaT shows a hackjob on the part of its creators who had many good "ideas", but weren't able to put them together in logical, rhythmic order.

Rah's second flaw is in its cast. Rah has a monstrous cast, but the problem is with the focus of the series. Rah was intent on bringing every character into the mix with a story and multiple, intertwining relationships. The problem with this is that characters who seem important early on disappear for episodes, and characters that seem unimportant early on dominate the later episodes. They really needed more episodes in order for this method to work. Without them, they should've just focused on a few. It's not that these stories are bad, but just rather shallow due to the lack of time spent developing them.

Rah's third flaw is in its characters. I thought most were poorly conceived. Eva, by comparison, went to great lengths developing characters with specific personalities. Eva's characters always acted and interacted in an honest manner regarding their personality. But Rah's characters often seem wooden. Ayato especially has as much flavor and personality as cardboard. I neither love or hate him. My apathy towards him is reflective of his apathy towards everything. I think the most interesting characters are under-developed. Quon is always intriguing, but she's never given a proper story. Megumi is a fun personality that fades into the background, only to emerge too late. In the end, I just didn't feel like I really knew any of the characters, and just didn't care what happened to them. This might just be a matter of personal taste, but I think Eva had superior characterization, even if their characters were often unlikable.

Rah's fourth flaw is how contrived much of its drama is. This goes back to PRAT and lack of development. Ep. 18/19 is a prime example; Ayato and Hiroko develop a relationship VERY quickly late in 18. The ending of 19, which should be the most poignant in the series, instead seems mawkish and sloppy due to the dearth of story development. A series for audiences with any kind of attention span can't just arbitrarily introduce characters and relationships, give them a "tragic ending" and expect intelligent viewers to fall for it.

Rah's fifth flaw is in its extra-contextual elements. Its "philosophy" is so trite as to be laughable. I especially got a chuckle out of Ayato's "I am me because I will remain me because I am myself" talk, which has been recycled to death. if Rah succeeds as a sci-fi narrative, it fails miserably as a work with something to say. I can't help but think these aspects were thrown in for pretentious reasons solely because Eva had them.

Rah's final flaw is in its "big picture". Rah has some great parts and ideas but as a "complete work" it comes up short. Great albums are those where each song serves a larger purpose in the structure and context of the album. Series are the same with episodes. Episodes exist both singularly, but also as one piece to a bigger puzzle. In Rah's case, many pieces just don't fit. And while they may work as stand-alones, they don't enhance the overall work, and this again goes back to poor PRAT.

STRENGTHS:

With all the negatives I had to say about Rah, I still think it works well as an interesting piece of science fiction. Here are what I consider its greatest strengths:

Rah's style is a rich tapestry influenced by a variety of art (music, literature, visual arts, mythology and culture). These aspects are integrated seamlessly into the narrative, making it unique and captivating stylistically. Visually, it's gorgeous with very fluid animation. The character and mech designs are phenomenal, with great color usage that's thematically relevant. The visuals evoke a type of mesmeric painting, while the music evokes a sense of enchanting mystery and nostalgia. The series bases much of its story on time and music, so this was a crucial aspect, and it works. Literature, religion, myths, and cultures are also used to shape Rah's style. The RahXephon page on Wikipedia discusses many of its influences in terms of art and culture. It's really fascinating, and perhaps the most alluring reason to watch Rah.

I think Rah actually succeeds extremely well as a pure sci-fi narrative. Many of the ideas it uses were interesting until the end. The series gets more compelling in the later episodes. From ep. 19 on it's hard not to get engrossed in the story, wondering how it's going to end. The final episodes are a whirlwind of revelations and one big twist after another. It's enough to leave any viewer's head spinning. Rah's narrative is fairly complex and worth dissecting for those who aren't satisfied with the surface aspects. The character relationships, while a bit shallow, are also fun to follow, to see how they conclude.

The finale is extraordinary in its artistic vision. If I hadn't seen End of Evangelion before seeing Rah, then it would certainly fall under the mind-blowing category. They have a bit of a "been there, done that" feeling, but it's extremely well executed and visually stunning. While Rah will probably leave you with some questions, it resolves most of its main narrative in a fairly complete and conclusive manner.

The voice acting is also exceptional. In rare anime fashion, the dub is almost equal to the sub. Though I still give the edge to the sub (some GREAT performances from its cast), the dub is adequate for those who despise subtitles.

CONCLUSION:

As one critic stated, "Rah is like Eva lite: Tastes good but less filling." For me, Rah is a good but very flawed series. It's a bit pretentious and fails intellectually, but succeeds with its imaginative sci-fi narrative and rich, vibrant visual style. It has enough depth to give the viewer something to contemplate, but isn't nearly as demanding of its audience as Eva. While I still consider Eva a vastly superior artistic work, Rah is a good alternative for those who find Eva too complex, depressing and demanding. This is perhaps why most either love Rah and hate Eva or vice versa. One works more as fun, light entertainment (Rah), while the other works better as a mature, complex work of art (Eva). For casual audiences, Rah would likely be preferred. For those (like myself) who enjoy a challenge, Eva is a deeper, more rewarding work.

I do feel that both works deserve a lot of merit for what they accomplished. Despite their similarities, the essence of both in what they (tried to) achieve are quite different. I've yet to experience a visual work as endlessly fascinating as Eva. But for those who didn't latch onto it emotionally or intellectually, Rah might be just what you're looking for.


Some more thoughts: HERE

There was a huge thread called "RahXephon kicks Eva's ass, period" that I posted a lot in that was deleted. Too bad.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

slothen
First Ancestral Sloth
First Ancestral Sloth
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 2558
Joined: Sep 12, 2006
Location: Indianapolis
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby slothen » Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:25 pm

my anime-to-watch list is getting rather long....
God, Apparently you all have been discussing Q since November. Catching up on the discussion is harrowing.

MAL Profile

mrpanda
Matarael
Matarael
User avatar
Posts: 550
Joined: Jan 13, 2008

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby mrpanda » Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:53 pm

Wow i started a thread which turned out well, personally i found rah quite boring and stoped watching half way through, i think after watching eva eva becomes the only deep anime with mecha and mythology, other just dont do it.
Jawohl mein Fuhrer. Heil Asuka!
Believe in I who believeth in ye.Strike the heavan by thine drill Simon. - Ye Olde Gurren Lagann.
<Ornette> that's not how parental blocks work
<Ornette> since there is no Optical Pussy Recognition
<Ornette> there's no way a program can know that an image is porn

universalperson
Gaghiel
Gaghiel
User avatar
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec 17, 2007

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby universalperson » Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:18 pm

Next topic: Xenogears!
Avatar courtesy of RetroRainbow, and the Eva art book.


Return to “Related Works & People”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest