Is Rei or Kaworu made of "Particle wave matter"?

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Is Rei or Kaworu made of "Particle wave matter"?

Postby V » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:36 pm

Focuses exclusively on the "Particle-wave matter" debate:

is Rei (and Kaworu probably, but lets focus on Rei first) made of "Particle wave matter" like the Angels and Evas, or is she just normal matter like any other human?

I actually lean towards "normal matter", as there wasn't really much compelling evidence for "Particle wave matter"; further, Rei is supposedly made from Yui's salvaged genetic material, which would imply that she's fairly "flesh and blood"

Please present all evidence for and against we have on this topic

Now you see, all "Angel powers" like the A.T. Field are based on the Soul, not the body; that's how Rei III can make an A.T. Field, etc. So she need not be made of Particle wave matter.

The one thing that I'm pondering most is when Rei's arm falls off in End of Eva, then she regrows one;

I don't think that proves she's Particle-wave matter; seeing as ALL life is held together by A.T. Fields including humans (Lilin) particularly when a few scenes later, everyone falls apart into puddles of LCL.

****Lastly, one sub-thing I want to clear up: the "new" Rei clones aren't made by yanking out the legs we see twitching on Lilith's lower-torso, right? Because I thought the scale was all wrong (they're too big to be a person).

And if Rei is made of particle-wave matter, where did they get it?
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Postby Sachi » Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:44 pm

If Rei is made of PWM, I'd assume that they'd get it from the same place they get the Eva's And if the Eva's got their's from being clones of Adam, then I suppose they could make really REALLY small clones. Still producing PWM.

I, personally, always assumed that Rei was just regular "people" matter. And her regenerating her arm is just her being *ZOMG* Lilith.
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Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:01 pm

I'd just like to note that Rei having Yui's "genetics" isn't a compelling argument, as Angels have VERY similar genes to Lilim and they're made of PWM.
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Postby Reichu » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:15 pm

I've long figured the following (and this stuff has all been covered in various places):

- Rei 1 was made of normal matter, but the clones were all created from Lilith afterwards. (The legs and lower bodies that remain are left behind precisely because they're deformed / "overripe" / etc.) Reasoning behind this can be found in various easily-found threads covering Rei's origins; another would just be mindless rehash.

- Kaworu is made of PWM because he basically says it flat-out. (Refresh with the "Ode to Joy" scene if necessary.)

- The main determinant behind whether or not someone can utilize ATF Voodoo if whether or not they're in a PWM vessel. Hence Lilin souls in Adam/Lilith-based bodies can do awesome things, and Lilin-shaped bodies made of PWM can do some cool things, too. (I'm having trouble locating prior breakouts of this explanation, but I know it's come up several times...)
What if... Kaworu bonded with Misato instead of Shinji, and the two of them were siblings?
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Postby Ornette » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:57 pm

Reichu wrote:- The main determinant behind whether or not someone can utilize ATF Voodoo if whether or not they're in a PWM vessel. Hence Lilin souls in Adam/Lilith-based bodies can do awesome things, and Lilin-shaped bodies made of PWM can do some cool things, too. (I'm having trouble locating prior breakouts of this explanation, but I know it's come up several times...)

If all souls have the same potential, but that realization of that potential is determined by the presence of PWM, then is Lilith's soul an exception? She managed to materialize (or something) in EoE while her soul was in no body at all. If Lilith's soul is indeed an exception to the rule, then so be it. Everyone else including Adam's soul needs PWM to do any kind of magic. If there are differences in a soul's potential, maybe the reason why certain souls have different potentials (certain Angels have a stronger ATF), is it possible that there's a specific reason why Yui, Kyoko, (presumably) Toji's mother, etc were "candidates" for CE's with Evas aside from the fact that they have children of a certain age? Could it be that their souls have a higher potential for soul magic than your normal lilin?

But there's also something specific with Rei concerning her potential. Assuming that Rei II has PWM, she should be able to generate big ATFs, but doesn't until 24. Is this because the soul unsplit with Eva-00, or was it that she realized her potential to generate one. If the later, is it possible that all souls have the potential to do soul magic, perhaps PWM being a way to realize it as a catalyst, but not a necessity?

I'm not shooting down the idea of PWM = ability to for soul to do magic like ATF, since we really know nothing of the mechanics of either PWM or souls. But why PWM necessity vs other possible explanations? Is there a payoff with this theory that others don't provide? I know this has been the popular assumption for a while and I remember reading older threads on ANF about this, but I've never really been satisfied with the PWM = soul magic explanation.

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:00 pm

Reichu wrote:I've long figured the following (and this stuff has all been covered in various places):

- Rei 1 was made of normal matter, but the clones were all created from Lilith afterwards. (The legs and lower bodies that remain are left behind precisely because they're deformed / "overripe" / etc.) Reasoning behind this can be found in various easily-found threads covering Rei's origins; another would just be mindless rehash.

- Kaworu is made of PWM because he basically says it flat-out. (Refresh with the "Ode to Joy" scene if necessary.)

- The main determinant behind whether or not someone can utilize ATF Voodoo if whether or not they're in a PWM vessel. Hence Lilin souls in Adam/Lilith-based bodies can do awesome things, and Lilin-shaped bodies made of PWM can do some cool things, too. (I'm having trouble locating prior breakouts of this explanation, but I know it's come up several times...)
I was going to post the exact same thing in different words, so I'll just +1 this.
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Postby BobBQ » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:03 pm

Reichu wrote:Rei 1 was made of normal matter, but the clones were all created from Lilith afterwards.

Any particular reason Rei I needs to be made of conventional matter?

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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:11 pm

BobBQ wrote:Any particular reason Rei I needs to be made of conventional matter?
If we're going with the theory she was pulled out of Unit-01 after Yui's CE ala Shinji in ep. 20 then I think it only makes sense that Rei 1 was made of LCL that was all/partly/mostly formerly Yui.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:16 pm

BobBQ wrote:Any particular reason Rei I needs to be made of conventional matter?
She ingests large portions of it, seems as fragile as any normal human, and manifests none of the usual morphological properties associated with PWM, EoE wierdness aside.

Nevertheless, owing to the fact that she disintegrates in EoE as her AT-Field wanes, and also owing to Nerv's ability to seemingly transfer her consciousness from body to body, I'd say that Rei is most likely composed of PWM(Angel Putty) that has been somehow persuaded to emulate regular biological matter, very, very closely, based on Ikari Yui's DNA pattern.
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Postby BobBQ » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:24 pm

ObsessiveMathsFreak wrote:She ingests large portions of it, seems as fragile as any normal human, and manifests none of the usual morphological properties associated with PWM, EoE wierdness aside.

So does Rei II, apart from the bookend appearance in E1.

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Postby Semisubtle » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:28 pm

Eva Yojimbo wrote:If we're going with the theory she was pulled out of Unit-01 after Yui's CE ala Shinji in ep. 20 then I think it only makes sense that Rei 1 was made of LCL that was all/partly/mostly formerly Yui.


I thought Yui was never pulled out at all, that she achieved 400% synchronization but didn't come back out as Shinji did, and thus the operation was a failure. Am I totally wrong in thinking this? Does that mean they would have had no way of creating Rei I?

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Postby UrsusArctos » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:35 pm

I wonder if plants are made of PWM or something like that...Rei 2 is eating at a noodle shop in Episode 11, and has lunch with Gendo in 15. She can eat normal matter...so she probably is made of normal matter. Rei 3, on the other hand...
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Postby Semisubtle » Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:40 pm

Rei 3 is made the same way as Rei 2, and if she's made of normal matter, then so too must be Rei 3. She just gets weird towards the end there, when she starts getting who she is and what she's made of.

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Postby V » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:05 pm

BobBQ wrote:
Reichu wrote:Rei 1 was made of normal matter, but the clones were all created from Lilith afterwards.

Any particular reason Rei I needs to be made of conventional matter?


Occam's Razor.

I, personally, always assumed that Rei was just regular "people" matter. And her regenerating her arm is just her being *ZOMG* Lilith.


Verily, Sachiel13. Though you're right....same place they get Eva Particle-wave matter; grow it from normal matter or whatever.

So anyway....I think we can safely say Rei 1 is normal matter.

Why suddenly shift to making Reis that are made of particle-wave matter?

And while Lilith does have all of those legs.....I was never convinced that they were Reis they "pull out" and I still don't....i.e. if "Kaworu is Seele's Rei"....where were they making the Kaworu clones they used in the Dummy Plugs?

we really don't know this one, and while Particle-wave matter does seem to "amplify" the powers of a soul (see Evas) I think the point is that Adam and Lilith are so awesomely powerful souls that neither Rei nor Kaworu really need particle-wave matter.

Then again, correct; Kaworu flat out says he's made of the same matter as the Evas.

Which of course brings us to the whole "Wait, was Kaworu originally an independent Angel in his own right that got Adam's soul shoved into him or is he just a human clone with Adam's soul, or what?" debate.

At any rate, this doesn't really jive along with the "is Rei exactly like Kaworu" debate.

Anyway, ultimately I don't think its been conclusively proved that Rei is made of particle-wave matter.
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:57 pm

Semisubtle wrote:
I thought Yui was never pulled out at all, that she achieved 400% synchronization but didn't come back out as Shinji did, and thus the operation was a failure. Am I totally wrong in thinking this? Does that mean they would have had no way of creating Rei I?
Yui wasn't pulled out. Apparently in trying to pull Yui out Lilith's soul mixed with Yui's LCL/DNA and they pulled Rei out.

V wrote:
I think we can safely say Rei 1 is normal matter.
I think you're very wrong about this V, and you have some tough opposition.

V wrote:Why suddenly shift to making Reis that are made of particle-wave matter?
Because Rei 1 wasn't "made", she was a freak accident that happened how I outlined above. The Rei clones are a method for keeping her alive.


V wrote:Then again, correct; Kaworu flat out says he's made of the same matter as the Evas.


And he says he and Rei are exactly the same. Ergo...


V wrote:"Wait, was Kaworu originally an independent Angel in his own right that got Adam's soul shoved into him or is he just a human clone with Adam's soul, or what?" debate.


I like the theory that he's a bi-product of the Lilim CE-meddling.

V wrote:Anyway, ultimately I don't think its been conclusively proved that Rei is made of particle-wave matter.
Well, if you want to ignore what Kaworu says, what happens in EoE and in ep. 23', then I guess you might have a point. I think it's as conclusively proved as possible.
Last edited by Eva Yojimbo on Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby V » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:59 pm

I don't think Rei 1 was physically "pulled out"...
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:04 pm

I think she was. Why make the conscious parallel to Shinji's incident in ep. 20 to Yui's CE without it being relevant?
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Postby V » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:11 pm

....that attempt officially "didn't work"...so they had to clone Yui back to life
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Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:26 pm

It officially didn't work because they couldn't pull Yui back out. But that doesn't mean they didn't pull *something* out. Again, the parallelism isn't by mistake.
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Postby ObsessiveMathsFreak » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:48 pm

BobBQ wrote:So does Rei II, apart from the bookend appearance in E1.
Oops. Sorry. I thought the question was about Rei in general.
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