Angel Intelligence (Again...)

For serious and at times in-depth discussions only, covering the original TV series, the movies End of Evangelion and Death & Rebirth.

Moderator: Board Staff

V
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 2000
Joined: Feb 14, 2007
Location: @the end of the universe

Angel Intelligence (Again...)

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby V » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:29 am

SPLIT BLAH


yeah but inherently Angels can never be quite as smart as humans
Who is "Codename V"?....
I'm pleased to meet you and I hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game...so catch me if you can!! (0:50)
"Superior ability breeds superior ambition" -- Spock, Star Trek TOS episode 1.24 "Space Seed"
You say you say you want a REvolution?...
-->It was only after I lost everything, that I realized: I was free to do anything...

CorporalChaos
Test Subject
Test Subject
User avatar
Posts: 2945
Joined: Sep 04, 2006
Location: I'm actually in a demon

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby CorporalChaos » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:41 am

V wrote:yeah but inherently Angels can never be quite as smart as humans
WTF, what about Kaworu?
Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is generally the correct one.
Essel's Corollary: The simplest explanation is never the fanon one.

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:55 am

V wrote:yeah but inherently Angels can never be quite as smart as humans

:rolleyes:
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」

V
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 2000
Joined: Feb 14, 2007
Location: @the end of the universe

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby V » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:37 pm

Kaworu is an Angel artificially slapped into a human body

He's not exactly "normal"
Who is "Codename V"?....
I'm pleased to meet you and I hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game...so catch me if you can!! (0:50)
"Superior ability breeds superior ambition" -- Spock, Star Trek TOS episode 1.24 "Space Seed"
You say you say you want a REvolution?...
-->It was only after I lost everything, that I realized: I was free to do anything...

BobBQ
Dyskolos
Dyskolos
User avatar
Posts: 4486
Joined: Jul 21, 2006
Location: Somewhere out there
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BobBQ » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:58 pm

V wrote:yeah but inherently Angels can never be quite as smart as humans

Shove off, you poser.

AuraTwilight
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3317
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Mar 19, 2008 4:48 pm

I'm still personally confused about the "Angel Intelligence" thing myself. The way it seems to be described, Angels are supposed to be the immortal beasts of a sort, and Lilin the fragile genius human strain; Life and Knowledge, whee. This is all well and good, but then it becomes apparent that Angels can be pretty damned intelligent. So what the hell is it that Lilin have that the Angels don't? If the Angels are physically perfect and have human intelligence, what the hell makes Lilin so damn special that they must NEVAR be fused with Angels to create "God"?
J_Faulkner, be warned that some of your statements could be construed as ad hominem attacks. -- Priceless, eternal irony

Anno has perfected the side boob --Gendo'sPapa

RandomStuff
Sachiel
User avatar
Posts: 214
Joined: Feb 04, 2008
Location: Digging up TMA-1
Contact:

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby RandomStuff » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:58 pm

AuraTwilight wrote:I'm still personally confused about the "Angel Intelligence" thing myself. The way it seems to be described, Angels are supposed to be the immortal beasts of a sort, and Lilin the fragile genius human strain; Life and Knowledge, whee. This is all well and good, but then it becomes apparent that Angels can be pretty damned intelligent. So what the hell is it that Lilin have that the Angels don't? If the Angels are physically perfect and have human intelligence, what the hell makes Lilin so damn special that they must NEVAR be fused with Angels to create "God"?

Humans are capable of cooperation, love, compassion, kindness, invention. The only reason Kaworu demonstrates any off this is probably because he's been "slapped" into a human body.

I think we'd need Osamu Tezuka if we really wanted to know what this place would look like. Unfortuanely, unless one of us is a necromancer, this represents a problem.
Irrelevance is the key to success! Losbacas.com
It's like pulling teeth from the corpses of the defiled!-Jake
Wayne's cancer-curing hair cures cancer!
The golden magic 8-ball says you must die...

BobBQ
Dyskolos
Dyskolos
User avatar
Posts: 4486
Joined: Jul 21, 2006
Location: Somewhere out there
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby BobBQ » Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:08 pm

RandomStuff wrote:The only reason Kaworu demonstrates any off this is probably because he's been "slapped" into a human body.

Be warned, young padawan: the path of V is the path of 'tardedness.

AuraTwilight
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3317
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:37 pm

Humans are capable of cooperation, love, compassion, kindness, invention. The only reason Kaworu demonstrates any off this is probably because he's been "slapped" into a human body.


The "human body" he's in is also Angelic. It would take more than a soul to do all the funky crap he does, and he also says that he and Eva "are of the same matter/body."

Human form, maybe, but probably not made out of the same stuff. Not wholly, anyway. Besides, I don't see why the body choice would give him all these new psychological aspects.
J_Faulkner, be warned that some of your statements could be construed as ad hominem attacks. -- Priceless, eternal irony

Anno has perfected the side boob --Gendo'sPapa

AsukaChan
Tunniel
User avatar
Posts: 165
Joined: Jan 25, 2008
Location: 'Shipping hardcore A/R. :

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AsukaChan » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:39 pm

Humans are capable of cooperation, love, compassion, kindness, invention. The only reason Kaworu demonstrates any off this is probably because he's been "slapped" into a human body.


That doesn't make sense to me. Kaworu seemed to have much more of those things than Rei, even when Rei's soul became whole again (if we are assuming Rei's soul is partially in Zero). Rei was a total ice queen no matter what, and even if Kaworu didn't have a complete grasp of what he was trying to do, he was still much more natural. So, by comparison, Kaworu seemed to be much better at those things that are supposed to be unique to humans.

I think emotion is an indicator of intelligence, and the Angels could certainly feel loneliness.
Last edited by AsukaChan on Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Asuka, just as hot as that Langley Soryu chick.

AuraTwilight
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3317
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:02 am

AsukaChan wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:Humans are capable of cooperation, love, compassion, kindness, invention. The only reason Kaworu demonstrates any off this is probably because he's been "slapped" into a human body.


That doesn't make sense to me. Kaworu seemed to have much more of those things than Rei, even when Rei's soul became whole again (if we are assuming Rei's soul is partially in Zero). Rei was a total ice queen no matter what, and even if Kaworu didn't have a complete grasp of what he was trying to do, he was still much more natural. So, by comparison, Kaworu seemed to be much better at those things that are supposed to be unique to humans.

I think emotion is an indicator of intelligence, and the Angels could certainly feel loneliness.


You should probably edit your quote, I'm not the one who said that. :P

But otherwise, yea, I agree. Kaworu seems so in synch with Lilim behavior because he was raised as such, not by what body he was put in. Rei is as Lilim as you can GET and she was raised by Gendo and company to have little self esteem and social skills, treated, and taught to see herself as, subhuman.
J_Faulkner, be warned that some of your statements could be construed as ad hominem attacks. -- Priceless, eternal irony

Anno has perfected the side boob --Gendo'sPapa

AsukaChan
Tunniel
User avatar
Posts: 165
Joined: Jan 25, 2008
Location: 'Shipping hardcore A/R. :

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AsukaChan » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:34 am

Sorry. XD

I typed it on my phone and just yoinked it off someone else's post. I'm not surprised I messed up. XD
Asuka, just as hot as that Langley Soryu chick.

UrsusArctos
The Beginning and the End
The Beginning and the End
User avatar
Posts: 9029
Joined: Jun 28, 2007
Location: Visiting forum at random

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby UrsusArctos » Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:27 am

All right: I thought I'd post it on this thread while I'm at it (I was thinking on adding a T&A on "Fruit of Knowledge" while I'm still at it somewhat)

If Angels are supposed to have the "Fruit of Life", what is the "Fruit of Knowledge"? We know the FoL is the S2 engine, the FoK remains a mystery.

And no, Angels aren't incapable of intelligence. Sachiel's intelligence is upgraded on the fly after that N2 hit, and Armisael is certainly very close to, if not equal to a human in intelligence.

I think the Fruit of Knowledge might be quite simply, knowledge of how another person feels. Armisael does seem to be quite capable of understanding what Rei feels and that what Rei and herself feel are the same- but could Armisael be considered as lacking empathy? Is the human gift- the Fruit of Knowledge- simply the ability to understand, deep down, how others actually feel?

After all, the nature of human and Angel A.T. Fields mirrors the same, doesn't it? Humans have psychological barriers between each other, and only humans can break through human pyschological barriers with their understanding. Angels have physical barriers- and they can neutralize them with their own physical power. The Seed of Life(S2) may not be directly related to how the Angels can generate an ATF but the relation does hold, doesn't it?

And as far as empathy is concerned, intelligence isn't the only thing that matters. Understanding matters more.
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster

Anonymous_Evafan
Minion
Minion
Age: 36
Posts: 3254
Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Location: On Reichu's shit list...
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Anonymous_Evafan » Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:56 am

UrsusArctos wrote:And no, Angels aren't incapable of intelligence. Sachiel's intelligence is upgraded on the fly after that N2 hit, and Armisael is certainly very close to, if not equal to a human in intelligence.


Don't forget Ireul, the living super-computer that hacked and almost blew up NERV.
Oh, but God forbid any of these theories have any validity! After all, we are just brainwashing innocent people with Reichu's fanclub propaganda!--Trigger's Elysium sarcasm for the masses!

UrsusArctos
The Beginning and the End
The Beginning and the End
User avatar
Posts: 9029
Joined: Jun 28, 2007
Location: Visiting forum at random

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby UrsusArctos » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:00 am

How could I forget the Andromeda Angel itself? >_<

Also, Leliel, which one of the show's makers confirmed was the little Shinji in the Episode 16 psychoanalysis sequence.
Not knowing that Monk is bi is like not knowing the Pope is Catholic - ZapX
You're either really bad at interpreting jokes or really good at pretending you are and I have no idea which.-Monk Ed
WAAAAAAAAGH!!!!!(<-link to lunacy)...Taste me, if you can bear it. (Warning: Language NSFW)
The main point of idiocy is for the smart to have their lulz. Without human idiocy, trolling would not exist, and that's uncool, since a large part of my entertainment consists of mocking the absurdity and dumbassery of the world, especially the Internet.-MaggotMaster

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:02 am

AuraTwilight wrote:The way it seems to be described, Angels are supposed to be the immortal beasts of a sort, and Lilin the fragile genius human strain; Life and Knowledge, whee. This is all well and good, but then it becomes apparent that Angels can be pretty damned intelligent.
That's the idea. It's another switch (this time, somewhat subtle) that Anno pulls that there's this obvious distinction between Angels and Humans that later becomes not quite so clear. It brings into question the idea of sentience VS consciousness and whether the Angels have merely the former or also the latter. A lot is revealed through Kaworu, and I'm sorry V, but your argument of him being in human form is pointless because he's still Adam (mother of the angels) and made of PWM. He's as Angel as any Angel was.

What one might could say is that the difference is that humans have been able to develop intelligence/consciousness over a long period, and their "fruit of knowledge" is a metaphorical fruit that's been reaped through time. While the angels are merely born and left to survive on their own with this tremendous natural resource (the S2 engine) that bucks the need for intelligence/consciousness. But sometimes life throws a curve - like these two diametrically opposed life-forms being on the same planet. This forces both into a situation where they're forced to change, adapt, and evolve on the spot... this has implications that impact both directly on the narrative and far beyond it, like how the Angels have to develop intelligence to combat us, and we have to combat our own unconscious in order to deal with them. The idea is to highlight both the fundamental differences and similarities.

To directly answer the question: YES the Angels atleast have the capacity for intelligence as seen by their various actions that can't completely be attributed to naked instinct. Whether they are actually conscious or not would have to be answered/discussed by more knowledgeable folks than myself, but I'd guess "no, but they're getting there".
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James

V
Banned
User avatar
Posts: 2000
Joined: Feb 14, 2007
Location: @the end of the universe

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby V » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:17 pm

BobBQ wrote:
RandomStuff wrote:The only reason Kaworu demonstrates any off this is probably because he's been "slapped" into a human body.

Be warned, young padawan: the path of V is the path of 'tardedness.


EDIT: Bob if you dont' say something constructive in support of your own beliefs, we have no idea if they're actually correct or not. Please contribute constructively.

Eva Yojimbo wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:The way it seems to be described, Angels are supposed to be the immortal beasts of a sort, and Lilin the fragile genius human strain; Life and Knowledge, whee. This is all well and good, but then it becomes apparent that Angels can be pretty damned intelligent.
That's the idea. It's another switch (this time, somewhat subtle) that Anno pulls that there's this obvious distinction between Angels and Humans that later becomes not quite so clear. It brings into question the idea of sentience VS consciousness and whether the Angels have merely the former or also the latter. A lot is revealed through Kaworu, and I'm sorry V, but your argument of him being in human form is pointless because he's still Adam (mother of the angels) and made of PWM. He's as Angel as any Angel was.

What one might could say is that the difference is that humans have been able to develop intelligence/consciousness over a long period, and their "fruit of knowledge" is a metaphorical fruit that's been reaped through time. While the angels are merely born and left to survive on their own with this tremendous natural resource (the S2 engine) that bucks the need for intelligence/consciousness. But sometimes life throws a curve - like these two diametrically opposed life-forms being on the same planet. This forces both into a situation where they're forced to change, adapt, and evolve on the spot... this has implications that impact both directly on the narrative and far beyond it, like how the Angels have to develop intelligence to combat us, and we have to combat our own unconscious in order to deal with them. The idea is to highlight both the fundamental differences and similarities.

To directly answer the question: YES the Angels atleast have the capacity for intelligence as seen by their various actions that can't completely be attributed to naked instinct. Whether they are actually conscious or not would have to be answered/discussed by more knowledgeable folks than myself, but I'd guess "no, but they're getting there".


Actually I agree with Yojimbo fully: inherently, Humans will "master science and technology" as they have the Fruit of Knowledge and will always be "smarter than" the Angels. But I've always been kind of interested in how the Angels ARE NOT "rampaging monsters" but fairly intelligent, even Sachiel, etc.

I did not create a new thread to start arguing that "Angels aren't intelligent". I actually think they kind of are. I posted "Angels aren't that intelligent" in clipped form in another thread; you should not have branched this off into another thread without me because I never intended it that way, and it's effectively a straw-man technique by quoting what was never meant to be a full arguement


Nonetheless, due to the Fruit of Knowledge and "Science is Man's strength", I still think "yeah but inherently Angels can never be quite as smart as humans"

And I'm not sure if Adam was originally as smart as Kaworu is. And since when are we so sure that Kaworu is made of Particle-wave matter?

But otherwise, yea, I agree. Kaworu seems so in synch with Lilim behavior because he was raised as such, not by what body he was put in. Rei is as Lilim as you can GET and she was raised by Gendo and company to have little self esteem and social skills, treated, and taught to see herself as, subhuman.


The way I see it, Rei isn't "used" having her full range of emotions back, but she starts to understand them (breaking Gendo's glasses, ultimately siding with Shinji over Gendo) while Kaworu IS used to having them and while..."naive" to a degree, is fairly functional in comparison.
Last edited by V on Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Who is "Codename V"?....
I'm pleased to meet you and I hope you guessed my name, but what's puzzling you, is the nature of my game...so catch me if you can!! (0:50)
"Superior ability breeds superior ambition" -- Spock, Star Trek TOS episode 1.24 "Space Seed"
You say you say you want a REvolution?...
-->It was only after I lost everything, that I realized: I was free to do anything...

Reichu
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 24046
Joined: Aug 21, 2004
Location: Sailing for the white shores
Gender: Female

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Reichu » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:28 pm

V wrote:PLEASE [say] exactly what your own stance on issues is, which you haven't exactly made clear. For all I know you might end up converting me to your own theories. Hurling insults will not result in further understanding.

I actually agree with this.

I did not create a new thread to start arguing that "Angels aren't intelligent". I actually think they kind of are. I posted "Angels aren't that intelligent" in clipped form in another thread; you should not have branched this off into another thread without me because I never intended it that way, and it's effectively a straw-man technique by quoting what was never meant to be a full arguement

The language used to express an opinion is treated as a gateway to one's attitudes. You chronically express a stance implying a sort of "Lilincentrism", reminiscent of the sort of anthropocentric attitude that used to almost universally pervade zoology, wherein any species that didn't match up to our standards or concept of intelligence was spoken of in intrinsically demeaning terms: essentially, everything else was "lesser". This is really rather counterproductive, since "intelligence" is extremely relative, and biases tend to saturate any attempt to measure it. There are better ways to approach these things.

As for "I shouldn't have started a new thread": People had already replied to your claim. All I did was split off a tangent.

BTW, please stop applying bold formatting to entire passages, re-read the forum rules regarding quoting, and write using structured paragraphs that are easy to follow. I'm serious.

@Yojimbo:
The Fruit of Knowledge is, I'd say, decidedly implied to have more to do with science ("the power of man") than anything else, but I'm not at liberty to dig out relevant threads at the moment. Should be easy enough to find, though.

@Thread: I wouldn't consider Kaworu entirely relevant to this discussion, since he's basically the incarnation of a Seed of Life. We're more interested in Adam's natural offspring here.
Last edited by Reichu on Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:42 pm, edited 6 times in total.
さらば、全てのEvaGeeks。
「滅びの運命は新生の喜びでもある」

AuraTwilight
Evangelion
Evangelion
User avatar
Posts: 3317
Joined: Mar 16, 2008
Location: Za Warudo

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby AuraTwilight » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:39 pm

I think the Fruit of Knowledge might be quite simply, knowledge of how another person feels. Armisael does seem to be quite capable of understanding what Rei feels and that what Rei and herself feel are the same- but could Armisael be considered as lacking empathy? Is the human gift- the Fruit of Knowledge- simply the ability to understand, deep down, how others actually feel?


Doesn't that go against the existential point of Evangelion's conclusion?

Asuka wrote:Of course no one understands you! No one could EVER understand you.


Or is this Shinji feeding himself delusions or something?

And I'm not sure if Adam was originally as smart as Kaworu is. And since when are we so sure that Kaworu is made of Particle-wave matter?


Kaworu wrote:Eva and I are of the same matter.


How's that?
J_Faulkner, be warned that some of your statements could be construed as ad hominem attacks. -- Priceless, eternal irony

Anno has perfected the side boob --Gendo'sPapa

Eva Yojimbo
Redbeard
Redbeard
User avatar
Age: 35
Posts: 8005
Joined: Feb 17, 2007
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbo
Gender: Male

  •      
  •      
  • Quote

Postby Eva Yojimbo » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:59 pm

Reichu wrote:@Yojimbo: The Fruit of Knowledge is, I'd say, decidedly implied to have more to do with science ("the power of man") than anything else, but I'm not at liberty to dig out relevant threads at the moment. Should be easy enough to find, though.
Well, that's basically what I said (though I took it in a more metaphoric manner). Science is the ultimate achievement (the metaphoric "fruit") of man's knowledge and what it has come to define itself by. NGE certainly speaks strongly on this theme... though 2001 probably did it better.
Cinelogue & Forced Perspective Cinema
^ Writing as Jonathan Henderson ^
We're all adrift on the stormy seas of Evangelion, desperately trying to gather what flotsam can be snatched from the gale into a somewhat seaworthy interpretation so that we can at last reach the shores of reason and respite. - ObsessiveMathsFreak
Jimbo has posted enough to be considered greater than or equal to everyone, and or synonymous with the concept of 'everyone'. - Muggy
I've seen so many changeful years, / to Earth I am a stranger grown: / I wander in the ways of men, / alike unknowing and unknown: / Unheard, unpitied, unrelieved, / I bear alone my load of care; / For silent, low, on beds of dust, / Lie all that would my sorrows share. - Robert Burns' Lament for James


Return to “Evangelion TV Series + EoE Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest